Lightning Powered Electromagnets

[Intuitive]

What kind of Magnetic flux do you think we could harness with a scheme like this Lightning Powered Electromagnet.

 

[Danger]

Just how big is that thing supposed to be? Unless those windings are about 6" diameter cable, I think it would melt. Even then, the core might.

 

[Intuitive]

Just how big is that thing supposed to be? Unless those windings are about 6" diameter cable, I think it would melt. Even then, the core might.

It would be built according to the needed specifications.

The Ceramic Insulator would be designed to withstand high temperatures and High Voltage penetration.

The Cable windings could be made from Bridge Cable, 4 to 6 inch OD, It's possible to Machine a winding from Solid core rod 3 to 4 inches OD, If Hollow pipe is used then this could allow a coolant to flow inside the winding to cool the system by cryogenics.

All kinds of alternatives in design material.

Industrial pipe bender anyone?:rofl:

But anyways, It was the principle of igniting a spark in some of the great minds within this forum.

Please comment.

 

[Danger]

The fluid-filled tubing sounds like a pretty good idea, if it doesn't explode from steam pressure. I'm curious about how you'd insulate the windings themselves, though. You'd need some pretty heavy jacketing around the coils, or cables, or whatever to avoid just arcing across the thing.

 

[berkeman]

What kind of Magnetic flux do you think we could harness with a scheme like this Lightning Powered Electromagnet.

Looks like you could make one heck of a nature-powered rail gun like that. Maybe PF could hold a forum competition for the world record longest shot by a naturally-powered rail gun...

 

[Intuitive]

The fluid-filled tubing sounds like a pretty good idea, if it doesn't explode from steam pressure. I'm curious about how you'd insulate the windings themselves, though. You'd need some pretty heavy jacketing around the coils, or cables, or whatever to avoid just arcing across the thing.

Since we would be dealing with a high amount of Ampere per second we wouldn't need a lot of winding, The Winding could be incased in a Ceramic Cylinder to act as an Insulator to prevent Cable Insulated penetration by the high voltage. Leaving a couple of inches of Ceramic encasement or more between Winds. The Ceramic encasement would appear like a cylinder with the winding concealed inside it. Of course the contraction of the Winding would probably shatter the Ceramic from the intense Magnetic Field but it would be a mental start.

2000 joules of Energy running in a coil of 2 windings alone can cut a beer can in half.

But anyway's it would still be fascinating and might lead to some world record Man made Magnetic Fields.

 

[Danger]

It's a fun excercise, for sure, although outside of my realm. I'll definitely keep an eye on this thread.
Berkeman, I like the way your mind works. Just remember to warn everybody two or three states over when you're going to fire the thing.

 

[vadslram]

Hmmm rail gun,, There might be a way to put payloads in space. Just have to find a way to make lightning strike more predictably.

 

[Danger]

Replace the lightning rod with a golfer.

Actually, I wonder whether or not a balloon could carry a heavy enough input cable into a cloud. That should increase the odds of a hit.

 

[berkeman]

Replace the lightning rod with a golfer.
Actually, I wonder whether or not a balloon could carry a heavy enough input cable into a cloud. That should increase the odds of a hit.

I remember a Nova episode or other science channel show that showed an outdoor laboratory that did a lot of experimenting with lightning. They were located in some area with lots of thunderstorm activity, and they used small rockets to seed paths for the lightning to strike down to their sensors on the ground. Maybe I'll see if I can find a link to them...

 

[Danger]

Right... I saw that. I don't think that it was Nova, though, because I don't get cable. It seems to me that it was called 'Stormchasers'. The problem is that I can't remember how much of what I'm thinking of is from the documentary and how much is from 'Twister'.

 

[berkeman]

So I googled the following for fun, and got some good hits:

+lightning experiment +rocket

http://plaza.ufl.edu/rakov/sipda1999.htm

http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/rocket_lightning_030130.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning

http://www.eurekalert.org/features/kids/2005-02/dlnl-lia021405.php

That last one is interesting...

One year ago, Clancy and Brown began conducting safety measurements at Livermore's Site 300 near Tracy, Calif., on buildings that store high explosives to assure that the explosives, buildings and personnel would be safe in a lightning storm.

"In every facility that houses high explosives we were doing the number crunching to figure out what would happen if it got struck by lightning," Clancy said.

 

[vadslram]

It was scientific american frontiers i think w/ Alan Alda narrating. The research lab was in FL. They had awsome footage of stikes to the tower.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Here is a link to an article about one of the most powerful electromagnets, if not the most powerful, yet devised, which I snagged from a thread started by Astronuc a couple weeks ago.

http://www.magnet.fsu.edu/focus/operation.html

The magnet is powered by one single megajoule, and that can only be pulsed for a very brief amount of time from a capacitor bank. They have to set off explosives all around the magnet to contain it when it's pulsed in order to create the brief magnetic field. If not, the thing will simply rip itself apart from the magnetic forces.

Now your attachment is talking about trying to put FIVE HUNDRED megajoule bolt of lightning through a coil.

 

[Danger]

Wow, Zoob... that's amazing. I'm glad that you reposted that, because I never saw it the first time around.

 

[Intuitive]

Here is a link to an article about one of the most powerful electromagnets, if not the most powerful, yet devised, which I snagged from a thread started by Astronuc a couple weeks ago.
http://www.magnet.fsu.edu/focus/operation.html
The magnet is powered by one single megajoule, and that can only be pulsed for a very brief amount of time from a capacitor bank. They have to set off explosives all around the magnet to contain it when it's pulsed in order to create the brief magnetic field. If not, the thing will simply rip itself apart from the magnetic forces.
Now your attachment is talking about trying to put FIVE HUNDRED megajoule bolt of lightning through a coil.

I'll leave any Iron suppliments at home that day!

 

[Integral]

Using a lighting bolt is not the best way to go. To much energy, to short a time. BUT...

What may be harvest able is the energy represented by the potential difference which created the lighting bolt. When a lighting strike occurs, the stored energy is lost. We need a way to control and utilize this energy. In a sense Ben Franklin was trying to do this over 200 yrs ago. He was using a kite to charge a Leyden jar (an early capacitor) . As Ben found, attracting the atmospheric charge is easy, controlling it is a whole different problem.

Your time would be better spent contemplating that. Once the bolt of lighting strikes the ground the energy is transformed to less useful forms.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Wow, Zoob... that's amazing. I'm glad that you reposted that, because I never saw it the first time around.

I know. The whole thing is mindblowing. Cooling the coils is not the problem at all, it's the fact that, after a point, no coil materials can withstand the magnetic field.

Here's Astronuc's whole thread:

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=104831

 

[Averagesupernova]

I think it you'd have less flux built up than first assumed. A lightning strike contains a large amount of high frequencies. So much that it doesn't even like to turn corners. It would most likely arc from one turn to the next to the next to the next and etc. in the coil. Once the air is broken down, it is easy for the DC component to travel through the arc as well.

 

[Intuitive]

Even though it would probably be a destructive Electromagnet that can only be used once, It would still be cool to produce the world record Magnetic field.

Also, You would only need a couple of very large turns of coil at those Amp levels per second.

Something like a 1 foot OD rod bent to form a two turn coil.

I wonder if it would last long enough to get a super Magnetic field, If so then working out any other additional specs could increase our field time by increasing the diameter and material of the rod that we would make our coil from with each additional test.

I was also thinking of a single layer Pancake cable coil alone with other Electromagnetic forms.

 

[Intuitive]

I think it you'd have less flux built up than first assumed. A lightning strike contains a large amount of high frequencies. So much that it doesn't even like to turn corners. It would most likely arc from one turn to the next to the next to the next and etc. in the coil. Once the air is broken down, it is easy for the DC component to travel through the arc as well.

Money, Material Research and testing could eliminate any problems with a little funding.

 

[Averagesupernova]

^^^^^^^^^^Yeah sure, you go ahead and bend the laws of physics.

 

[zoobyshoe]

A lightning strike contains a large amount of high frequencies. So much that it doesn't even like to turn corners.

I'm not sure what high frequency has to do with turning corners. Wouldn't that be tied more closely to the voltage? The higher the voltage the greater it's ability to break down insulation?

 

[Intuitive]

^^^^^^^^^^Yeah sure, you go ahead and bend the laws of physics.

Adding a good amount of insulation grade ceramic to fully encase a two turn coil would suffice, Whether using an Iron core, Solid or Hollow would make for some good induction, there are a variety of Coil forms at our disposal for testing, We would probably need some distance between us and our coil before the Iron core rail guns out of the Coil.

Testing devices set on the coil equipment can give us information and results. The devices would need to be encased in Black boxes to survive the intense energy. Make sure the black boxes have beacons on them.

I know pancake coils are used to launch Aluminum rings pretty high in the sky, I wonder if a 500 megajoule pancake coil could launch a ring into space.

Space Needle anyone!

We need a grant!

 

[Averagesupernova]

I'm not sure what high frequency has to do with turning corners. Wouldn't that be tied more closely to the voltage? The higher the voltage the greater it's ability to break down insulation?

The inductance of a corner is enough to make the current arc away from the conductor and find an easier path to ground. Hard to believe, I know, but arcing between turns of an inductor (yes, single turns) is not at all unheard of.

 

[Averagesupernova]

Adding a good amount of insulation grade ceramic to fully encase a two turn coil would suffice, Whether using an Iron core, Solid or Hollow would make for some good induction, there are a variety of Coil forms at our disposal for testing, We would probably need some distance between us and our coil before the Iron core rail guns out of the Coil.
Testing devices set on the coil equipment can give us information and results. The devices would need to be encased in Black boxes to survive the intense energy. Make sure the black boxes have beacons on them.
I know pancake coils are used to launch Aluminum rings pretty high in the sky, I wonder if a 500 megajoule pancake coil could launch a ring into space.
Space Needle anyone!
We need a grant!

You mention good induction. This implies a high impedance to AC. I have already posted what happens. I don't think that the voltage in a lightning strike will be confined in ANY material that we wrap around the turns considering it arcs many miles through air.

 

[Intuitive]

You mention good induction. This implies a high impedance to AC. I have already posted what happens. I don't think that the voltage in a lightning strike will be confined in ANY material that we wrap around the turns considering it arcs many miles through air.

Optimistic Research is needed.

All we need is a millisecond of Magnetic field for testing.

A single turn of super cooled Super conductive pipe might do the trick, If it is at 0 resistance even for a millisecond before the coil is destroyed.

 

[berkeman]

I think we have the makings for a good screenplay plot for the making of "Real Genius II".

 

[zoobyshoe]

The inductance of a corner is enough to make the current arc away from the conductor and find an easier path to ground. Hard to believe, I know, but arcing between turns of an inductor (yes, single turns) is not at all unheard of.

I still don't understand why you are attributing shorting between turns to frequency rather than voltage breaking the insulation down. Tesla coils have pretty tight turns and yet handle the frequencies generated by a current jumping a spark gap: herz in the millions I understand.

 

[Averagesupernova]

Zooby, naturally the insulation has to break down in order for there to be arcing between turns. But the inductance of the coil will prevent any high frequency currents from discharging THROUGH the turns of the coil. An easier path is to arc around it, or from one turn to the next to the next to the next and so on. I realize tesla coils generate high frequencies. Usually nothing above several Mhz. Lightning will generate frequencies much higher than this. Not only that, the tesla coil is a tuned secondary of a transformer. It is optimized to work at several Mhz.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Zooby, naturally the insulation has to break down in order for there to be arcing between turns. But the inductance of the coil will prevent any high frequency currents from discharging THROUGH the turns of the coil. An easier path is to arc around it, or from one turn to the next to the next to the next and so on. I realize tesla coils generate high frequencies. Usually nothing above several Mhz. Lightning will generate frequencies much higher than this.

OK, I see what you're saying now: without the resistance created by the high frequency the current has no reason to jump to another coil.

 

[Averagesupernova]

Hey Zoob. Did you post and then delete? Curious to what's on your mind concerning this.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Yeah, I posted. For some reason I couldn't see it either. I can see it now that you posted, though. Are you showing post #31?