Loss of information and Quantum Determinism

[Simple man]

TL;DR Summary

Natural ways Quantum information can be lost.

Other than with black holes, are there any other natural ways that quantum information can be lost, and thus jeopardize quantum determinism?

 

[A. Neumaier]

Most typically, information is lost by absorption into unobservably fast oscillations.

 

[Simple man]

Most typically, information is lost by absorption into unobservably fast oscillations.

"Thank you, A Neumaier, for your reply!"

 

[Demystifier]

Most typically, information is lost by absorption into unobservably fast oscillations.

Are you suggesting that information lost by black holes is a special case of this?

 

[A. Neumaier]

Are you suggesting that information lost by black holes is a special case of this?

No; the question was about other situations apart from black holes. I was thinking about typical situations in the lab. In the case of black holes, information is lost by absorption into unobservably tiny regions near spatial singularities.

 

[PhilDSP]

Would those unobservably fast oscillations include the phase of "matter waves" from De Broglie's theory (which become extremely rapid as a particle's velocity approaches rest)? Granted they aren't physical waves as we know them.

 

[A. Neumaier]

Would those unobservably fast oscillations include the phase of "matter waves" from De Broglie's theory (which become extremely rapid as a particle's velocity approaches rest)? Granted they aren't physical waves as we know them.

I was talking about standard quantum mechanics, not extensions like De Broglie's theory. But if one believes the standard talk about Bohmian mechanics, they claim that observable is precisely the same as with the standard theory. if so, my observation also holds for this extension.

 

[Simple man]

No; the question was about other situations apart from black holes. I was thinking about typical situations in the lab. In the case of black holes, information is lost by absorption into unobservably tiny regions near spatial singularities.

Hi, guys! Hawking said that if spacetime can be warped, tied into a knot, or folded, then certainly information can get caught in those folds, and lost. Would this be an example of jeopardizing quantum determinism, other than through black holes!

 

[haael]

In accelerated frames information can be lost in Rindler horizon.

If the Universe is expanding or even stationary and open, then information can be lost in the sky, by simply radiating it away.

 

[PeterDonis]

In accelerated frames information can be lost in Rindler horizon.

This is not the sense of information being "lost" under discussion in this thread. The information is still there, it's just beyond the observer's Rindler horizon.

If the Universe is expanding or even stationary and open, then information can be lost in the sky, by simply radiating it away.

Similarly, in this case the information is still there, it's just radiated away.

 

[PeterDonis]

Hawking said that if spacetime can be warped, tied into a knot, or folded, then certainly information can get caught in those folds, and lost.

Please give a reference.

 

[microsansfil]

Summary: Natural ways Quantum information can be lost.

Other than with black holes, are there any other natural ways that quantum information can be lost, and thus jeopardize quantum determinism?

what is meant by “quantum information” ?

“quantum information” encompassing subjects as diverse as quantum computation, quantum algorithms, quantum complexity theory, quantum communication complexity, entanglement theory, quantum key distribution, quantum error correction, and even the experimental implementation of quantum protocols.

/Patrick

 

[Simple man]

Please give a reference.

Hello, Mr. Donis.
I don't have the specific type references you request, no "text books or peer read papers". I read about Hawking statement in a copy of THE ELEGANT UNIVERSE, by Brian Greene, in a chapter concerning the information paradox. And after I heard about Supertranslations, I simply googled it. That's it. I read very sporadically, so if I see something on the Science Channel, that interests me, I investigate on my IPad. That's all I do! I'm too old for school, so I don't have access to college literature or textbooks. Hope this helps!

 

[PeterDonis]

I read about Hawking statement in a copy of THE ELEGANT UNIVERSE

Then we're not going to be able to discuss it. PF discussions need to be based on valid sources. You will find lots of things in pop science books, even things said or written by scientists, that are at best misleading, at worst just plain wrong. Scientists can get away with that in pop science books because no other experts are required to check their work. That's why PF prefers textbooks and peer-reviewed papers, where there are other experts checking the work.

I'm too old for school, so I don't have access to college literature or textbooks.

Sure you do. There are lots of good textbooks and other equivalents, such as lecture notes, online. MIT and some other universities have their entire curriculum online. And you can find tons of peer-reviewed papers on arxiv.org.

 

[Simple man]

Then we're not going to be able to discuss it. PF discussions need to be based on valid sources. You will find lots of things in pop science books, even things said or written by scientists, that are at best misleading, at worst just plain wrong. Scientists can get away with that in pop science books because no other experts are required to check their work. That's why PF prefers textbooks and peer-reviewed papers, where there are other experts checking the work.
Sure you do. There are lots of good textbooks and other equivalents, such as lecture notes, online. MIT and some other universities have their entire curriculum online. And you can find tons of peer-reviewed papers on arxiv.org.

Fair enough, and I agree! Thanks for your answer! By the way, are there any recently published books out there on black holes, that aren't overwhelmingly technical, but still scientificly reliable? Material that I could comprehend, and learn from? Maybe one volume that covers the most aspects of black holes, white holes, singularities, the cosmic censorship conjecture, etc?

 

[PeterDonis]

are there any recently published books out there on black holes, that aren't overwhelmingly technical, but still scientificly reliable?

I don't know what you would consider recent, but Kip Thorne's Black Holes and Time Warps, published in 1993, is still an excellent layman's presentation of the subject.

 

[PeterDonis]

Also, Sean Carroll's online lecture notes on GR are a good resource for learning the basics of GR:

https://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/9712019
Chapter 7 discusses black holes, but it's worth working through the earlier chapters to get a good background.

 

[Simple man]

I don't know what you would consider recent, but Kip Thorne's Black Holes and Time Warps, published in 1993, is still an excellent layman's presentation of the subject.

"Thank you very much, Mr. Donis!"

 

[Simple man]

Also, Sean Carroll's online lecture notes on GR are a good resource for learning the basics of GR:

https://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/9712019
Chapter 7 discusses black holes, but it's worth working through the earlier chapters to get a good background.

"Thanks!"

 

[Simple man]

what is meant by “quantum information” ?

“quantum information” encompassing subjects as diverse as quantum computation, quantum algorithms, quantum complexity theory, quantum communication complexity, entanglement theory, quantum key distribution, quantum error correction, and even the experimental implementation of quantum protocols.

/Patrick
[/

"Thank you very much, Mr. Donis!"

"Thank you very much, Mr. Donis!"

Hello, again, Mr. Donis!
Have you heard of the book, BEYOND BIOCENTRISM, by Robert Lanza? It's his theory that consciousness and biology create the universe and reality, and not the other way around. Isn't this the plain old Copenhagen Interpretation of QM? Anyway, have you seen the book, or heard any scientific critiques about it? I was considering buying a copy.

 

[Simple man]

Please refer this thread to Peter Donis. Thanks!

 

[PeterDonis]

@Simple man your last couple of posts are rather garbled.

 

[Simple man]

@Simple man your last couple of posts are rather garbled.

Sorry about that! Must have been faulty Hawking Radiation! Lol! Anyway, have you heard about the book, BOYOND BIOCENTRISM, by Robert Lanza? In his theory of biocentrism, he claims that consciousness and biology create the universe and reality, and not vice versa. I was thinking of buying a copy of the book. Have you heard any critiques on it? Or have you you read any of it?

 

[PeterDonis]

have you heard about the book, BOYOND BIOCENTRISM

I just looked it up, and as I suspected from your description, it's a pop science book, and therefore not a valid source for discussion in this forum.

Also, your last post had the same quote from my post repeated five times. I've edited it to remove the duplicates.

 

[Simple man]

what is meant by “quantum information” ?

“quantum information” encompassing subjects as diverse as quantum computation, quantum algorithms, quantum complexity theory, quantum communication complexity, entanglement theory, quantum key distribution, quantum error correction, and even the experimental implementation of quantum protocols.

/Patrick

Hello, microsansfil!
I'm specifically talking about the type of information that black holes retain in their event horizons, and entropy. Isn't this a record of wave function and superposition of states, as well as atomic and molecular arrangements?

 

[Simple man]

"Thank you very much, Mr. Donis!"

I purchased a copy yesterday, at a Barnes & Noble, west of Pittsburgh! Thanks for the recommendation!

 

[Simple man]

I don't know what you would consider recent, but Kip Thorne's Black Holes and Time Warps, published in 1993, is still an excellent layman's presentation of the subject.

Thanks for your recommendation! I purchased a copy yesterday, at a Barnes & Noble, west of Pittsburgh!