Magnet inside a solenoid with current

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the interaction between a bar magnet and a solenoid when the magnet is forced into the solenoid's magnetic field. Participants explore the effects of magnetic forces, induced electromotive force (emf), and the conditions under which the magnet can be pushed into the solenoid. The conversation includes theoretical considerations and assumptions related to the setup.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that forcing the north side of the bar magnet into the solenoid would result in repulsion, making it difficult to insert the magnet.
  • Others argue that with sufficient force, it is possible to push the magnet inside despite the opposing magnetic fields.
  • A participant questions the significance of induced emf in this scenario, noting that its importance depends on the complete problem description, including the energy source for the solenoid.
  • Another participant clarifies their inquiry by specifying they want to determine the direction of the force on the bar magnet due to the solenoid when pushed inside, and whether this force remains constant along the path.
  • Some participants discuss the implications of flipping the bar magnet around and how that would affect the interaction with the solenoid.
  • One participant provides specific numerical values for magnetic field strength, voltage, current, and turns in the solenoid, while emphasizing the desire to understand the general case of the interaction.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the behavior of the bar magnet when interacting with the solenoid, particularly regarding the effects of magnetic forces and the role of induced emf. The discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing perspectives on the topic.

Contextual Notes

Participants have not fully described the energy source for the solenoid, which may affect the significance of induced emf. Additionally, assumptions about the forces involved and the conditions of the solenoid's operation are not uniformly agreed upon.

Heisenberg7
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What would happen if we tried forcing a bar magnet into a magnetic field created by a solenoid (look at the picture)? Assume that both the bar magnet and the solenoid are isolated form any other source of a magnetic field. What I am thinking:

First of all, if we tried forcing the north side in, it would simply get repelled and we wouldn't be able to get it inside. Now, if we tried forcing in the south side of the bar magnet, it would get attracted so the solenoid would work as a catapult.

When it comes to the first sentence, I think that should happen but, I am not sure what happens when we turn the bar magnet around. Also, would the induced emf play a significant role in this case?

Thanks in advance
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What do mean "what would happen"?

Please post the actual question.
 
Heisenberg7 said:
First of all, if we tried forcing the north side in, it would simply get repelled and we wouldn't be able to get it inside.
You could push it inside if you have enough force to overcome the opposing magnetic fields.
 
Heisenberg7 said:
would the induced emf play a significant role in this case?
Well, it's there. Whether it's significant depends on a complete problem description. You haven't described your energy source for the coil, so I don't know if a bit of extra voltage matters or not. Significance depends entirely on the details.
 
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Vanadium 50 said:
What do mean "what would happen"?

Please post the actual question.
I guess I should've been more clear. I would like to find the direction of the force ##F_{bar, sol}## (on bar, due to solenoid) if I was to push the bar magnet inside the solenoid with some force ##F##. Does that force stay constant along the whole path (if the magnet starts moving into the solenoid)? Assume that ##F_{bar, sol} > F##. Show what would happen if we were to turn the bar magnet around (basically flipping the field of the bar magnet). Assume that the solenoid is static. Also, I would like to verify if my statement is correct under these circumstances. The statement:

First of all, if we tried forcing the north side in, it would simply get repelled and we wouldn't be able to get it inside. Now, if we tried forcing in the south side of the bar magnet, it would get attracted so the solenoid would work as a catapult.

By the way, this is just a question, I'm not trying to solve a problem.
 
Last edited:
Drakkith said:
You could push it inside if you have enough force to overcome the opposing magnetic fields.
Well, of course, but let's assume that ##F_{bar, sol} > F_{push}##. Assume that the solenoid is static. Also, check my other reply for the other inconsistencies.
 
DaveE said:
Well, it's there. Whether it's significant depends on a complete problem description. You haven't described your energy source for the coil, so I don't know if a bit of extra voltage matters or not. Significance depends entirely on the details.
For the sake of it, let's assume that the solenoid is connected to a 3V battery. What would happen if we were to increase voltage? Check my other replies for the other inconsistencies.
 
I would like to give you some numbers.
##B_{bar} = 10^{-4} T, U = 3 V, I = 1 A, N = 1000, L = 1 cm \implies B_{sol} = 0.126 T##
You may use these numbers, but I'd like to find the answer to my question in general (##F_{bar, sol} > F_{push}##).
 

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