Maxwell Equations without Faraday's Law

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the implications of removing Faraday's Law from Maxwell's equations, exploring whether other laws can compensate for its absence and how this would affect phenomena such as light and motors. Participants examine theoretical scenarios, the independence of the laws, and the nature of electromagnetic waves.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that Faraday's Law is independent and cannot be reconstituted by the other laws of electromagnetism.
  • Others argue that without Faraday's Law, light would not exist as a wave solution of Maxwell's equations.
  • A participant questions whether motors and light differ due to the frequency of the magnetic and electric fields, suggesting that only high-frequency fields might allow for light to exist while motors cease to function.
  • Another participant emphasizes that light is a vacuum solution, while motors are not, and notes that light can exist at low frequencies.
  • There is a discussion about the possibility of decoupling high-frequency electromagnetic phenomena from low-frequency ones in unified theories or quantum electrodynamics, with some suggesting that advanced theories bind them more closely together.
  • Participants express confusion regarding the ability to write Faraday's Law separately in current theories, with one asserting it is a certainty and providing the mathematical representation.
  • There is a request for illustrations or resources to better understand how Faraday's Law can be expressed separately and why advanced theories integrate it differently.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally disagree on the implications of removing Faraday's Law, with some asserting independence and others questioning the nature of electromagnetic phenomena in its absence. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the theoretical implications and the relationship between different electromagnetic laws.

Contextual Notes

Participants express uncertainty about the conditions under which Faraday's Law can be considered separately and the implications of advanced theories on the relationship between electromagnetic laws.

kiki_danc
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Maxwell equations are composed of:

Gauss's Law
Gauss's Law for Magnetism
Faraday's Law
Ampere's law with Maxwell addition

If you take out Faraday's Law.. can other laws re constitute it? Or are they independent?

I want to know how the world would behave if there were no Faraday's Law. Note Faraday's Law is mostly related to generators, transformers, motors. So if this law didn't exist. Light would still behave the same and others?
 
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kiki_danc said:
If you take out Faraday's Law.. can other laws re constitute it? Or are they independent?
They are independent. If you remove Faraday’s law you cannot reconstitute it.

kiki_danc said:
Light would still behave the same and others?
No, light would not work either. There would not be a wave solution of Maxwell’s equations
 
Dale said:
They are independent. If you remove Faraday’s law you cannot reconstitute it.

No, light would not work either. There would not be a wave solution of Maxwell’s equations

Can one say motors and light differ due to the frequency of the magnetic and electric field?

So perhaps if only high frequency magnetic and electric field could be made to exist (for sake of discussion).. then only light can exist and all motors, generators would cease to function?
 
kiki_danc said:
Can one say motors and light differ due to the frequency of the magnetic and electric field?
I would say that the more important difference is that light is a vacuum solution and motors are not vacuum. You can have “light” at arbitrarily low frequencies.
 
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Dale said:
I would say that the more important difference is that light is a vacuum solution and motors are not vacuum. You can have “light” at arbitrarily low frequencies.

What kind of light is produced at arbitrarily low frequencies? examples?
 
fresh_42 said:

In unified theories or quantum electrodynamics.. is it possible to decouple high frequency em (light) from low frequency em (motors) by breaking or unbreaking symmetries? Meaning you let only high frequency em work and suppress all low frequency em from the laws of nature such that in another multiverse, motors can't exist but light can.. Or they are still binded together in even in any final theory?
 
kiki_danc said:
Or they are still binded together in even in any final theory?
They become more closely bound in more advanced theories, not less. In most of them you cannot even write Faraday’s law separately.
 
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Dale said:
They become more closely bound in more advanced theories, not less. In most of them you cannot even write Faraday’s law separately.

Why, in our current incomplete theories.. can you write Faraday's law separately? How?
 
  • #10
I don’t understand that question
 
  • #11
Dale said:
I don’t understand that question

You stated that "In most of them you cannot even write Faraday’s law separately.". So there is possibility that in our current theory we can write Faraday's law separately? how?
 
  • #12
kiki_danc said:
So there is possibility that in our current theory we can write Faraday's law separately? how?
Not just a possibility, a certainty:
##\nabla \times E = -\frac{\partial}{\partial t} B##
 
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  • #13
Dale said:
Not just a possibility, a certainty:
##\nabla \times E = -\frac{\partial}{\partial t} B##

Any illustration or youtube video what they mean and how to write Faraday's law separately? How come in advanced theories... they become more closely bound?
 
  • #14
kiki_danc said:
Any illustration or youtube video what they mean and how to write Faraday's law separately?
I just showed you how in post 12.

kiki_danc said:
How come in advanced theories... they become more closely bound?
Why did you randomly insert “...” in your question? It is very distracting and makes no sense. It looks like you are trying to add a pause, but it makes no sense to pause there.

They are more closely bound in the advanced theories because the advanced theories tend to use mathematical constructs where Faraday’s law is either a mathematical identity or it is combined with Gauss’ law for magnetism into a single equation.
 
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