Need a calculation to find a relationship/correlation

  • Context: Undergrad 
  • Thread starter Thread starter shott92
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Calculation
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around finding a mathematical relationship between two forces in a system where their sum must equal a maximum force, with specific constraints on their ratios. Participants explore methods to derive this relationship without relying on numerical tools like Excel's goal seek function.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant describes a system where force 1 and force 2 must equal a maximum force, with force 1 needing to be 29% of force 2.
  • Another participant proposes defining the forces as variables and suggests maximizing the sum of the forces under given constraints.
  • Some participants express uncertainty about how to proceed from the defined relationships and constraints to find a solution without trial and error.
  • A later reply introduces the method of Lagrange multipliers as a potential analytical approach to solving the constrained optimization problem.
  • Participants discuss the validity of numerical methods, such as those used in Excel, and whether they are acceptable when analytical solutions are not easily obtainable.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the need for a mathematical approach to find the relationship between the forces, but there is no consensus on whether an analytical solution exists or if numerical methods are the only viable option.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the limitations of their current understanding of optimization methods and the potential complexity of deriving a solution analytically. There is also an acknowledgment that the problem may not have a straightforward analytical solution.

shott92
Messages
29
Reaction score
0
basically i have a system where force 1 + force 2 must equal force max
they have the following ratio (these are the ultimate forces as in 100% of force 1 needs to be used or 100% of force 2)
force1 = 1906.901
force2 = 1760.033
simple, but to really throw me off... force 1 has to be 29% of force2...
so i kinda got this using goal seek to find force2 = 1388.40585, as such
with force 1 contributing 21.114% of force 1 = 402.6377
and force 2 contributing 78.886% of force 2 = 1388.40585 (so i found this with goal seek :/ but need to find an equation or way to calculate the correlation without goal seek basically)

sorry i have tried making it as clear as i can, if clarifying anything specific will help please ask.
thanks in advance guys
 
Physics news on Phys.org
shott92 said:
basically i have a system where force 1 + force 2 must equal force max
they have the following ratio (these are the ultimate forces as in 100% of force 1 needs to be used or 100% of force 2)
force1 = 1906.901
force2 = 1760.033
simple, but to really throw me off... force 1 has to be 29% of force2...
so i kinda got this using goal seek to find force2 = 1388.40585, as such
with force 1 contributing 21.114% of force 1 = 402.6377
and force 2 contributing 78.886% of force 2 = 1388.40585 (so i found this with goal seek :/ but need to find an equation or way to calculate the correlation without goal seek basically)

sorry i have tried making it as clear as i can, if clarifying anything specific will help please ask.
thanks in advance guys

If you define ##x## and ##y## respectively as the first and the second force, then you have:

##x=0.29y##
##x\le1906.901##
##y\le1760.033##

And if I understand well, you want to maximise ##f(x,y)=x+y## under the stated conditions.

How would you do that?
 
so yeah the first bit i get, the x=0.29y as this is and then x and y have to be equal or less than the given values but i don't get where i would have to go from there...
i used excel and put in
cell1 (goal seek - must equal 1 change cell 4)
cell2 (=cell4*0.29/force1)
cell3 (=cell4/force2)
cell4 (goal seek (variable cell)
this gave me the percentages but it may have well of been trial and error (i think that's how excel does it to be fair)
but i need to use this as part of a larger equation using first principles and so so i need some form of calculation that actually has an answer if you get me
and unfortunately if your answer solves my problem, I am afraid i don't understand nor know how to do it, sorry
 
shott92 said:
so yeah the first bit i get, the x=0.29y as this is and then x and y have to be equal or less than the given values but i don't get where i would have to go from there...
i used excel and put in
cell1 (goal seek - must equal 1 change cell 4)
cell2 (=cell4*0.29/force1)
cell3 (=cell4/force2)
cell4 (goal seek (variable cell)
this gave me the percentages but it may have well of been trial and error (i think that's how excel does it to be fair)
but i need to use this as part of a larger equation using first principles and so so i need some form of calculation that actually has an answer if you get me
and unfortunately if your answer solves my problem, I am afraid i don't understand nor know how to do it, sorry

Ah, you also want their ratios to add up to 100%. I understand now.

In that case, we add ##\frac{x}{1906.901} + \frac{y}{1760.033} = 1## as another condition.

Have you seen methods for solving constrained optimization problems?
 
nope sorry once again not got a clue :/
 
so is there an actual calculation that re-arranges this system to give a ratio or percentage or come correlation or is it only solvable with goal seek or trail and error ??
 
shott92 said:
so is there an actual calculation that re-arranges this system to give a ratio or percentage or come correlation or is it only solvable with goal seek or trail and error ??
The method of Lagrange multipliers is usually used for solving constrained optimization problems like the one you've proposed. More information about that method here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagrange_multiplier

That's the only way I can think of solving this problem analytically, although it might not be (or certainly is not) the most optimal approach. Generally, numerical methods should be used to solve such problems, just like you did with Excel. When analytical solutions aren't expected, you shouldn't worry about using numerical methods.

Also, I can confirm you that the answer you've found with Excel is in fact the maximum value of ##f(x,y)## we're looking for.
 
Last edited:

Similar threads

  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
3K
  • · Replies 138 ·
5
Replies
138
Views
9K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 15 ·
Replies
15
Views
3K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
7K
  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
1K
Replies
9
Views
2K