News New Orleans disaster predicted in 2001

[Skyhunter]

This is precisely the same as the knee-jerk "Blame Bush!" reaction people had to 9/11. When the dust settled and the 9/11 commission report came out, there was lots of blame to go around, with most of it going to Clinton for eviscerating the intelligence services and doing nothing about the first WTC attack.

Most of it going to Clinton.

The perpetrators of the first WTC attack were captured and prosecuted, his eviscerated intelligence service thwarted the millennium plot, and he and his administration emphasised the threat from OBL when Bush took over.

What did Bush do about terrorism before 9/11?

Lie about Clinton and his team vandalizing the White House. Try to start a new "star wars program, and develop scenario's where it would be feasible to use nukes! Ignore the threat of terrorism until they had a better excuse than the Cole bombing.

Do you remember that in order to have unanimous agreement on the report the commission left out the part about Bush's incompetent handling of intelligence until after the election.

Hmm the election is over, and they never published part 2.

Bush ignores terrorism. And his apologists blame Clinton. Typical right-wing delusions.

Sorry, Skyhunter, history can't be segmented the way you want it to be. I'm perfectly happy to put some of the blame for this on Bush Sr., Reagan, and Carter as well, since, as I said, such projects take many decades - but that still needs to include Clinton.

Most of the time the argument is; "Well Clinton was worse." In this one it is; "Clinton was no better." Well Clinton did more for FEMA and the levees than Bush has.

I am contending that Bush's policies and his response are making the disaster worse. You are defending him.

You seem quite capable of doing so without blaming Clinton. The ACE report was a good example.

It is all a matter of priorities. This response reminds me of the Tsunami, where it wasn't until a reporter in Europe asked Clinton about the disaster that someone on Bush's team decided that he should maybe do something.

What was he doing the day after Katrina hit?

Playing guitar and selling his war.

Good leaders don't need people to continually make excuses for their failures.

 

[pattylou]

Just a bit of European heresy here:
Perhaps American voters are to blame in not voting for anyone willing to pay for upgrading the levees?

My husband's comment:

It's OK for any president to be as bad as previous presidents. And sometimes, it's okay to be a little worse.

I thought that was amusing. I'm sure we could blame the founding fathers, too, if we tried.

 

[pattylou]

Good leaders don't need people to continually make excuses for their failures.

I like that. Can I use it?

 

[Skyhunter]

I like that. Can I use it?

Sure, although I will want a couple of bucks if you use it in a best seller.

 

[Astronuc]

I'm perfectly happy to put some of the blame for this on Bush Sr., Reagan, and Carter as well, since, as I said, such projects take many decades - but that still needs to include Clinton.

I have to agree with Russ on this.

If one blames Bush, one has to blame Clinton too, and their predecessors.

Clinton's administration did cut certain domestic programs. My previous company got wacked by one of those cuts.

One also has to look at the priorities on the part of Congress.

Since the 1980's there has been enormous pressure to cut taxes, while still funding numerous federal programs.

Congress needs to prioritize, and the President needs to make sure that Congress has the right priorities. Checks and balances.

Hopefully, we will find out what wasn't done about the levees and why.

This kind of disaster will happen again - be sure of that. Houston could easily get a Cat 4/5 hurricane, and they were pretty badly flooded a few years ago. New Orleans, Mobile, Pensacola, Tampa, Miami, Jacksonville, Savannah, . . . are all at risk of receiving a Cat 4/5 hurricane.

 

[Kerrie]

Just a bit of European heresy here:
Perhaps American voters are to blame in not voting for anyone willing to pay for upgrading the levees?

There are many US citizens who question if their vote is even effective these days. Our voting system is seriously flawed (IMO), but that's another topic altogether.

 

[BobG]

The strength and height of the levees is pretty much a cost-benefit analysis and what specifically happened in NO has little to do with any president, at least directly.

Granted, with a large enough budget, even lower priority, once in a hundred year disasters get taken care of, but I don't think any president has made that type of commitment to preventing natural disasters - for one thing, natural disasters aren't normally blamed on politicians while taxes are.

Considering the impact of a disaster of this scale in a region like New Orleans and the surrounding Gulf, accepting a once in a hundred year risk winds up being more expensive than spending the money ahead of time to reduce the risk. Tapping into the reserve oil supply gives a hint about how important this part of the country is even above and beyond the cost in human lives and devastated buildings. But then you're asking politicians to take the blame for taxes now for a problem that's more likely to occur 'sometime in the future'.

I am surprised at how the levee failed. With a direct hit, you knew you'd have water flowing over the top, causing a disaster. I was surprised the levee actually broke. That wasn't exactly the advertised vulnerability.

The only solution, scientists, politicians and other Louisiana officials agree, is to take large-scale steps to minimize the risks, such as rebuilding the protective delta.
Every two miles of marsh between New Orleans and the Gulf reduces a storm surge -- which in some cases is 20 feet or higher -- by half a foot.
In 1990, the Breaux Act, named for its author, Sen. John Breaux, D-La., created a task force of several federal agencies to address the severe wetlands loss in coastal Louisiana. The act has brought about $40 million a year for wetland restoration projects, but it hasn't been enough.
"It's kind of been like trying to give aspirin to a cancer patient," said Len Bahr, director of Louisiana Gov. Mike Foster's coastal activities office.
The state loses about 25 square miles of land a year, the equivalent of about one football field every 15 minutes. The fishing industry, without marshes, swamps and fertile wetlands, could lose a projected $37 billion by the year 2050.
University of New Orleans researchers studied the impact of Breaux Act projects on the vanishing wetlands and estimated that only 2 percent of the loss has been averted. Clearly, Bahr said, there is a need for something much bigger. There is some evidence this finally may be happening.
A consortium of local, state and federal agencies is studying a $2 billion to $3 billion plan to divert sediment from the Mississippi River back into the delta. Because the river is leveed all the way to the Gulf, where sediment is dumped into deep water, nothing is left to replenish the receding delta.
Other possible projects include restoration of barrier reefs and perhaps a large gate to prevent Lake Pontchartrain from overflowing and drowning the city.
All are multibillion-dollar projects. A plan to restore the Florida Everglades attracted $4 billion in federal funding, but the state had to match it dollar for dollar. In Louisiana, so far, there's only been a willingness to match 15 or 25 cents.
"Our state still looks for a 100 percent federal bailout, but that's just not going to happen," said University of New Orleans geologist Shea Penland, a delta expert.
"We have an image and credibility problem. We have to convince our country that they need to take us seriously, that they can trust us to do a science-based restoration program."

I agree the loss of wetlands over the years contributed very significantly to the disaster, but restoring them at this point would require a lot more money than anyone would spend. Unless you could convince everyone along the entire Mississippi River valley that periodic floods were the cost of living next to the river, it would be a constant never ending investment of huge amounts of money. The boldfaced (by me) alternatives are the most cost effective way to avoid an endless raising of the levees.

 

[Manchot]

Clinton's administration did cut certain domestic programs. My previous company got wacked by one of those cuts.

Just out of curiosity, what was that domestic program?

 

[Skyhunter]

Clinton's interest in FEMA was in natural disasters, at the expense of homeland security, Art. Bush has been going the other way. Its a push-pull, and the article says pretty explicitly that FEMA has never had a clear mission since it was created in 1979 - it changes with the changing geopolitical climate.

The cold war was over, Clinton was reallocating government resources. I don't know what Bush is doing since he is unwilling or incapable of communicating clearly.

The department of homeland security has become another huge pork barrel.

Their major function, frightening people during the election cycle is now over so what are they doing now?

Where was their immediate response to the aftermath of Katrina?

And quite frankly, it is contrary to the purpose of FEMA for it to be concerning itself with prevention.

Preventing an emergency is much more efficient than coping with one after the fact.

What agency is supposed to concern itself with disaster prevention?

Also, while it may be true that funding to FEMA itself has been cut, it is of course also trivially obvious that general funding for disaster relief has been massively increased with the inception of the Homeland Security Administration - the administration to which FEMA has been joined.

See pork barrel.

FEMA's history, from FEMA: http://www.fema.gov/about/history.shtm

So what is the problem here?

In 1993, President Clinton nominated James L. Witt as the new FEMA director. Witt became the first agency director with experience as a state emergency manager. He initiated sweeping reforms that streamlined disaster relief and recovery operations, insisted on a new emphasis regarding preparedness and mitigation, and focused agency employees on customer service. The end of the Cold War also allowed Witt to redirect more of FEMA's limited resources from civil defense into disaster relief, recovery and mitigation programs.

A not-so-rosy picture of Clinton's impact on FEMA: http://www.fff.org/freedom/0197f.asp

This is one of those sites full of partisan rhetoric complaining about giving people tax payer money when they are struck by a disaster.

 

[Skyhunter]

once again I would like to point out that the flooding may well have been avoided had the Army Corp projects been fully funded. We will probably never know but the point that Bush is diverting rescources needed at home to fund his adventure in Iraq is still valid.

The levee and flood-control system itself represents the city's losing battle with nature. It has been built in fits and starts since 1724, and it was still not done when Katrina struck. The cost has been immeasurable, and the failures innumerable. Moreover, the section that protects against hurricane surges--begun only 40 years ago--has sunk below the height designed to bulwark against a Category Three hurricane (Katrina was nearly a Five). For decades, models have shown that, if a Category Five were ever to crawl up the mouth of the Mississippi--a scenario known to New Orleanians as "the Big One"--it could lift 25 feet of water into the saucer and leave New Orleans submerged for months. This week's cruelest irony is that New Orleans survived something like the Big One only to succumb to shoddy engineering: The city was soused the day after the storm, when levee collapses dumped 20 feet of water into the city. It met its demise by an act of man, not an act of God

Emphasis added by me.
http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20050912&s=diarist091205

[edit] New Orleans should not be rebuilt because thermal expansion and melting land bound glaciers are going to make it near impossible to prevent a future disaster.

 

[Astronuc]

Just out of curiosity, what was that domestic program?

Clean up of government sites in the weapons complex. All work stopped during the government shutdown (ca 1996 IIRC), and all projects rebid with reduced budgets. The money was there, then it wasn't.

 

[Astronuc]

I am surprised at how the levee failed. With a direct hit, you knew you'd have water flowing over the top, causing a disaster. I was surprised the levee actually broke. That wasn't exactly the advertised vulnerability.

Have you seen any report yet on how the levees failed.

I imagine hydraulic pressure caused seepage, which undermines earthen structures (e.g. dams, dikes, levees). This mechanism caused failures of levees during the Mississippi Flood of 1993, one year after Hurricane Andrew.

So the federal government has had more than a decade to do something.

A reinforced concrete barrier is necessary, or build levees like the Dutch build their dikes.

 

[TRCSF]

LOL. Yes, it's just political pandering to blame the President, but it's really Clinton's fault.



How many members of the Bush Administration does it take to change
a light bulb?

Ten, not counting the President:

1. One to deny that a light bulb needs to be changed.
2. One to attack the patriotism of anyone who says the light bulb
needs to be changed.
3. One to blame Clinton for burning out the light bulb.
4. One to tell the nations of the world that they are either for
changing the light bulb or for darkness.
5. One to give a billion dollar no-bid contract to Haliburton for
the new light bulb.
6. One to arrange a photograph of Bush, dressed as janitor,
standing on a step ladder under the banner: "Light Bulb Change
Accomplished"
7. One administration insider to resign and write a book
documenting in detail how Bush was literally in the dark.
8. One to viciously smear #7.
9. One surrogate to campaign on TV and at rallies on how George Bush has had a strong light-bulb-changing policy all along.
10. And finally one to confuse Americans about the difference
between screwing a light bulb and screwing the country.

 

[Art]

Here's an excerpt from a Blog of a group in New Orleans posted 1150 am today. Things seem absolutely desperate there.

1. Been too busy to debrief the police officer, so that will come later. Low priority now.

2. Buses loading people up on Camp Street to take refugees to Dallas, or so the word on the street (literally) is.

3. Dead bodies everywhere: convention center, down camp street, all over.

4. National Guard shoving water off the backs of trucks. They're just pushing it off without stopping, people don't even know it's there at first -- they drop it on the side in debris, there's no sign or distribution point -- people are scared to go near it at first, because the drop points are guarded by troops or federal agents with assault rifles who don't let people come near them, which scares people off. It is a mess. When people actually get to the water, they are in such a rush to get it that one family left their small child behind and forget about him until Sig carried him back to the family.

5. Lots of pics coming soon when Sig has time to update.

It's raining now and I guess that's a relief from the heat. It's hot as hell down there in the sun. Crime is absolutely rampant: rapes, murders, rape-murder combinations.

I have really cut back answering IMs. Not enough time. I apologize people.

In case anyone in national security is reading this, get the word to President Bush that we need the military in here NOW. The Active Duty Armed Forces. Mr. President, we are losing this city. I don't care what you're hearing on the news. The city is being lost. It is the law of the jungle down here. The command and control structure here is barely functioning. I'm not sure it's anyone's fault -- I'm not sure it could be any other way at this point. We need the kind of logistical support and infrastructure only the Active Duty military can provide. The hospitals are in dire straights. The police barely have any capabilities at this point. The National Guard is doing their best, but the situation is not being contained. I'm here to help in anyway I can, but my capabilities are limited and dropping. Please get the military here to maintain order before this city is lost.

http://www.livejournal.com/users/interdictor/

 

[Art]

The latest from SkyNews is there are thousands dead...

KATRINA KILLS THOUSANDS

Thousands of people have been killed after Hurricane Katrina devastated New Orleans and the Gulf Coast, according to the latest reports.


Three days after the hurricane ripped through the southern states of Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama, tens of thousands of people are still trapped.

Most have been left with no power, no clean water and little food.

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13427100,00.html
Here's a quote from Bush

"I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees. They did appreciate a serious storm but these levees got breached and as a result much of New Orleans is flooded and now we're having to deal with it and will,"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4204754.stm Which is amazing as I live in europe and am obviously better informed of US domestic affairs than the president of the US. I heard repeatedly on our national news two days before the storm struck that the levees were expected to be breached and New Orleans flooded.


ps Seeing as how Bush is several days behind the rest of the world it is possible he doesn't know about these deaths yet which would explain the delay in sending help.

 

[Astronuc]

This is interesting - http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050901/ap_on_re_us/katrina_superdome_evacuation_hk1

An angry Terry Ebbert, head of New Orleans' emergency operations, watched the slow procession from the Superdome on Thursday morning and said the Federal Emergency Management Agency response was inadequate.

"This is a national disgrace. FEMA has been here three days, yet there is no command and control," Ebbert said. "We can send massive amounts of aid to tsunami victims but we can't bail out the city of New Orleans."

He said the evacuation was almost entirely a Louisiana operation. "This is not a FEMA operation. I haven't seen a single FEMA guy."

But later on -

Frank Guitierrez, coordinator of the Harris County, Texas, Office of Homeland Security, said the evacuee numbers have slowed because of the lack of civil authority in Louisiana. But authorities said the delays allowed officials at the Astrodome to better manage the transfer.

There seems to be a disconnect here.

 

[pattylou]

Have you seen any report yet on how the levees failed.

I imagine hydraulic pressure caused seepage, which undermines earthen structures (e.g. dams, dikes, levees). This mechanism caused failures of levees during the Mississippi Flood of 1993, one year after Hurricane Andrew.

So the federal government has had more than a decade to do something.

A reinforced concrete barrier is necessary, or build levees like the Dutch build their dikes.

After the 17th street barrier broke, a man (and engineer) in NO was very clear that it wasn't a levee that had failed, but a flood wall.


He made the distinction that a levee is a large earthen barrier spread out from the water. He indicated that these are preferred when space is available.

The first breach (17th street) was of a flood wall - which is a concrete structure used when there is insufficient space to put up a levee.

I hadn't appreciated the distinction - and we may as well try to keep details straight on these things. I don't know if the second breach was part of an actual levee, or a flood wall.

The program also mentioned that the pumps are designed to pump rainwater as rains flood the city. They are designed to pump depths of inches out - not feet. They are working overtime and not holding up well.

 

[Skyhunter]

I would like to emphasize that I did not open this thread by accusing Bush of being responsible for the poor choice in location of the city, under engineered design of the levees, or the Hurricane. (Although his position on global warming is helping assure that hurricanes in the gulf will be stronger.) I opened it inferring that his foreign policy is hindering our ability to respond to a crisis. I am pointing out that he is a failure, the results of his management has been horrendous.

This is from a friend at the EPA:

We're naming it Lake George, 'cause it's his frickin fault. Have you seen all that data about the levee projects' funding being cut over the past three years by the Prez, and the funding transferred to Iraq? The levee, as designed, might not have held back the surge from a direct Class 5 hit, but it certainly would not have crumbled on Monday night from saturation and scour erosion following a glancing blow from a Class 3. The failure was in a spot that had just been rebuilt, not yet compacted, not planted, and not armed (hardened with rock/concrete). The project should have been done two years ago, but the federal gov't diverted 80% of the funding to Iraq. Other areas had settled by a few feet from their design specs, and the money to repair them was diverted to Iraq.
The NO paper raised hell about this time and again, to no avail. And who will take the blame for it? The Army Corps, because they're good soldiers and will never contradict the C in C. But Corps has had massive budget cuts across all departments (including wetland regulatory) since Bush took office, and now we've reaped what was sown. It really pisses me off to see the Corps get used by the Administration to shield Bush -- they do great work when they're funded. This was senseless, useless death caused not by nature but by budget decisions.

Why in the world would a party that believes that the government should be run like a business, elect an incompetent fool who, even with the financial backing of rich Saudis, couldn't find oil in Texas?

[Edit]Here is the levee breech story in the Houston Chronicle

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/nation/3332317

 

[TRCSF]

I would like to emphasize that I did not open this thread by accusing Bush of being responsible for the poor choice in location of the city, under engineered design of the levees, or the Hurricane. (Although his position on global warming is helping assure that hurricanes in the gulf will be stronger.) I opened it inferring that his foreign policy is hindering our ability to respond to a crisis. I am pointing out that he is a failure, the results of his management has been horrendous.


Why in the world would a party that believes that the government should be run like a business, elect an incompetent fool who, even with the financial backing of rich Saudis, couldn't find oil in Texas?

[Edit]Here is the levee breech story in the Houston Chronicle

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/nation/3332317

You know, in an earlier speech today he did spend a lot of time talking about refineries and rigs. He couldn't complete his own sentences, but at least we know he's interested. Kind of like Baghdad, where the first thing secured was the oil ministry.

This just in- according to CBS news, FEMA has turned down offers of foreign assistance.

 

[edward]

FEMA is a joke. It is a paper tiger full of bureaucrats and their only strong point is rebuilding million dollar houses on unsafe beach front properties.

 

[TRCSF]

FEMA is a joke. It is a paper tiger full of bureaucrats and their only strong point is rebuilding million dollar houses on unsafe beach front properties.

According to a FEMA director recently on TV, that nobody had told him about reports of bodies floating in New Orleans. Then he chastised the media for not reporting the good news.

It was a rather jovial press conference, apparently. He laughed during it.

FEMA is currently asking concerned citizens to donate money towards Pat Robertson's charity organization.

 

[Astronuc]

FEMA is currently asking concerned citizens to donate money towards Pat Robertson's charity organization.

I hope this is a joke!

Can this be substantiated? In all fairness to the moderators - they keep emphasizing that claims need to be substantiated. It is one thing to express an opinion (believe), it is another matter to present some information as fact.

We need to maintain the scientific (rational) method, even when discussing political matters and world affairs.

 

[Art]

According to a FEMA director recently on TV, that nobody had told him about reports of bodies floating in New Orleans. Then he chastised the media for not reporting the good news.

It was a rather jovial press conference, apparently. He laughed during it.

FEMA is currently asking concerned citizens to donate money towards Pat Robertson's charity organization.

I watched the interview on Fox news. This guy Mike somebody from FEMA was saying what a brilliant job they were doing and how everything was rosy. Next Fox switched to live reports from reporters on the scene and they were saying it was an unmitigated disaster. People starving, no fresh water and no aid arriving at all for the vast majority of people. Thousands stranded on Interstate 10 with nowhere to go whilst many others are still cut off by the floods. Back in the studio they struggled to hide the incompetence of the federal gov't with comments like "nat'l guard troops are now flooding into the area with 1,400 in Louisiana alone." 1400 is a flood?

 

[TRCSF]

I hope this is a joke!

I wish it was.

http://www.fema.gov/press/2005/katrinadonations.shtm

It sure sounds like a joke. But no, FEMA is directing donors to Operation: Blessing, the "charitable" organization that mostly spends its donations on buying airplanes for Robertson's privately-owned African mining operations.

I couldn't make that up if I tried.

If I were making something up, it would probably be something like how the FEMA director said that they're mobilizing the Boy Scouts of America for disaster relief.

Unfortunately I don't have much of a sense of humor.

The guy from FEMA actually said that at the press conference. They're mobilizing Boy Scouts.

I'm not kidding.

 

[TRCSF]

I watched the interview on Fox news. This guy Mike somebody from FEMA was saying what a brilliant job they were doing and how everything was rosy. Next Fox switched to live reports from reporters on the scene and they were saying it was an unmitigated disaster. People starving, no fresh water and no aid arriving at all for the vast majority of people. Thousands stranded on Interstate 10 with nowhere to go whilst many others are still cut off by the floods. Back in the studio they struggled to hide the incompetence of the federal gov't with comments like "nat'l guard troops are now flooding into the area with 1,400 in Louisiana alone." 1400 is a flood?

They're reporting now that armored personnel carriers have arrived in New Orleans and are carrying National Guard personnel. They're also carrying guns and ammunition, but no food and water.

Witness at the convention center (where the mayor and 20-30,000 refugees are taking shelter) describe the convoys driving past the convention center to who knows where.

 

[Skyhunter]

New Orleans Mayor Issues 'Desperate SOS'

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050901/ap_on_re_us/hurricane_katrina_49

NEW ORLEANS - Storm victims were raped and beaten, fights and fires broke out, corpses lay out in the open, and rescue helicopters and law enforcement officers were shot at as flooded-out New Orleans descended into anarchy Thursday. "This is a desperate SOS," the mayor said.

 

[Skyhunter]

New Sub Culture

posted by el_cid on another blog;

New Orleans not disaster, just a new subculture
You see, the Bush administration is not being lazy and incompetent toward the victims of Gulf Coast hurricane and flooding.

Our President is just encouraging the formation of a new, underwater-based culture.

Sure, right now, it's difficult for these poor and predominately African-Americans to leave behind their dry-land habits.

But soon, given time and evolution, they'll take to breathing the levee overrun water and then we'll have aquatic jazz.

We must have faith in Our President.

 

[EL]

But does he really believe in evolution?

 

[kat]

If I were making something up, it would probably be something like how the FEMA director said that they're mobilizing the Boy Scouts of America for disaster relief.

Unfortunately I don't have much of a sense of humor.

The guy from FEMA actually said that at the press conference. They're mobilizing Boy Scouts.

I'm not kidding.

Funny you should mention this. I remember in the '70's we were living in the Omaha Nebraska area and hit by a slew of tornadoes causing an incredible amount of damage. My brother was a scout and my father one of the scout leaders and interestingly enough the "troops" were also one of the early groups to be called upon to assist with cleaning up the mess. I'm not sure my brother was totally prepared for the horrible mess and the complete loss that many of these families had suffered. I remember it hitting him hard. Maybe it's a regional approach to situations like these?

Should anyone wonder how I can be in Biloxi for Camille in '69 and then in Nebraska for tornadoes in the 70's, my father was in the Air Force and we moved quite frequently.

 

[kat]

They're reporting now that armored personnel carriers have arrived in New Orleans and are carrying National Guard personnel. They're also carrying guns and ammunition, but no food and water.

Witness at the convention center (where the mayor and 20-30,000 refugees are taking shelter) describe the convoys driving past the convention center to who knows where.

my mother mentioned hearing on a talk show a woman who had been staying at the superdome and then at the convention center talking about how awful it was having only water and mre's for the last 3 days. So one would assume they don't need to stop to give good or water there. Also, I've read that they had made drops of water and food but were just dropping it there and leaving...It sounded as though there were just leaving the food and water in the streets but then...she said something about it being surrounded by armed men and how she was frightened, at first.. to go get it because of the armed men. So, I'm not sure..what she meant?

 

[DM]

They're reporting now that armored personnel carriers have arrived in New Orleans and are carrying National Guard personnel. They're also carrying guns and ammunition, but no food and water.

'Shoot to Kill'

"They have M-16s and are locked and loaded. These troops know how to shoot and kill and I expect they will,".

Link

 

[kat]

Okay...
one to ask..why the mayor didn't use THESE to evacuate people from the city when Bush first called and insisted the governor call a state of emergency ahead of the storm.
How much of the responsibility for preperation and assistance in a situation like this lies with the governor? and in a state of emergency with evacuation orders...how much lies with the mayors of each city? It seems there should be some accountability from these people.
They need an Guiliani in New Orleans.

 

[kat]

more on Boy Scouts assisting with clean up efforts:

Doing good for others and working with business and government has always been the benchmark of Scouting over the many years. From paper and can drives in the 30s and 40s, to Victory Gardens, to drug abuse prevention programs, to organ and tissue donation awareness, Americans have reacted positively to the call by Scouts to help out. When floods leveled entire communities, it was the National Guard and the Scouts first on the scene - in some cases, one and the same as many National Guard units chartered Emergency Service Exploring units to handle contingencies exactly like what happened. When tornadoes blew, or when hurricanes came on-shore, or deep, long snows hit communities, Scouts were there, preparing and in some cases handing out food, putting together cots and finding blankets, and collecting and distributing toys for needy children.

http://members.aol.com/coffeeweb/LO/tuesday.htm

 

[DM]

It seems the Bush administration is far more interested in resolving the current anarchy, where looting is taking place, rather than sending in vital food and drinking resources. Furthermore, I watched a news report yesterday of Mr Bush making remarks such as "these families will be mobilised to new areas in the country where they will be happy...", this truly enraged me.

 

[Art]

Okay...
one to ask..why the mayor didn't use THESE to evacuate people from the city when Bush first called and insisted the governor call a state of emergency ahead of the storm.

Can you provide a source for this please? It seems to contradict statements Bush made 3 days after the disaster began that nobody could have predicted it.

How much of the responsibility for preperation and assistance in a situation like this lies with the governor? and in a state of emergency with evacuation orders...how much lies with the mayors of each city? It seems there should be some accountability from these people.
They need an Guiliani in New Orleans.

I think you will find the vast majority of the affected states' emergency response equipment and comms were destroyed in the floods whilst their national guardsmen are otherwise deployed at this time. That would explain this strange assumptiion they are making that the federal gov't should assist them.
Still I suppose it's never too soon to try and shift the blame.

Meanwhile Bush himself has said today that the search and rescue response todate is unacceptable. So perhaps if he is willing to accept not enough is being done by his federal agencies you should consider doing likewise.
Bush condemns Katrina aid effort

Black plumes of smoke are drifting over crisis-hit New Orleans
President George Bush has condemned the initial response to Hurricane Katrina as "not acceptable", before arriving in Alabama to visit the stricken area.
Thousands of people remain stranded without food or water in New Orleans, where extra troops have been dispatched to quell lawlessness.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4208986.stm
1000s of people still have no food or water according to the BBC report which as I know you like reputable sources you will no doubt agree is probably a more reliable source than your mother.

 

[alexandra]

'Shoot to Kill'

"They have M-16s and are locked and loaded. These troops know how to shoot and kill and I expect they will,".

Link

There's a lot of this "shoot to kill" about nowadays, isn't there? [sarcasm] Now that's how to solve problems [/sarcasm]. DM, I'm with you - this is truly disgusting. I don't understand how such things can happen in the so-called greatest, most powerful country in the world. Truly unbelievable...

 

[kat]

Can you provide a source for this please? It seems to contradict statements Bush made 3 days after the disaster began that nobody could have predicted it.

"Gov. Kathleen Blanco, standing beside the mayor at a news conference, said President Bush called andhttp://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/WWL082805catastrophe.f4dd3f.html for a mandatory evacuation for the low-lying city, which is prone to flooding. "

However, it appears that the state and cities own plan calls for a 72 hour evacuation contingency:


"Since Georges, city officials designed a plan that would provide a more orderly evacuation. It is to begin 72 hours before a storm hits, and end when the winds become too dangerous for motorists, according to Hijuelos" http://www.weather.com/newscenter/specialreports/hurricanes/vulnerablecities/neworleans.html

Why on Earth would the president have to call and make an "appeal" to the Governor to order an evacuation! That's HER job!

Furthermore, it appears that much of the "lawlessness" is the norm for this city http://www.freep.com/news/nw/neworleans22e_20050822.htm

"We're going in the reverse of 46 of the top 50 cities in the United States. Almost everyone is going down, but we're going up," said criminologist Peter Scharf. "There is something going on in New Orleans that is not going on elsewhere."....There have been 192 this year by mid-August, compared with 169 at the same time in 2004. Adjusted for the city's size, those numbers dwarf murder rates in Washington, Detroit, Baltimore, Atlanta, Chicago, Los Angeles and New York.


For police, recruitment is a problem. The department has a poor image, with allegations of brutality and corruption dating back decades.

That's an outrage, and probably explains a lot of what's going on now. I've lived in the very corrupt city of Brockton MA for a short period of time and..it seems to me that the same situation existed in NO. Where the government officials were more concerned with lining their own pockets and running their own drug and prostitute rings then taking care of the cities people.

I think you will find the vast majority of the affected states' emergency response equipment and comms were destroyed in the floods. That would explain this strange assumptiion they are making that the federal gov't should assist them.
Still I suppose it's never too soon to try and shift the blame.

Meanwhile Bush himself has said today that the search and rescue response todate is unacceptable. So perhaps if he is willing to accept not enough is being done by his federal agencies you should consider doing likewise.

Being prepared is the STATES responsibility and it appears they didn't even follow their own emergency plan. I think there's plenty of blame to go around. This tells me I should make sure that my state is prepared and follows emergency plans when an emergency arises. Although, having been here for the ice storm several years back, I feel pretty comfortable that people here wouldn't be shooting at the helicopters sent into rescue them.

 

[Art]

"Gov. Kathleen Blanco, standing beside the mayor at a news conference, said President Bush called andhttp://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/WWL082805catastrophe.f4dd3f.html for a mandatory evacuation for the low-lying city, which is prone to flooding. "
However, it appears that the state and cities own plan calls for a 72 hour evacuation contingency.
"Since Georges, city officials designed a plan that would provide a more orderly evacuation. It is to begin 72 hours before a storm hits, and end when the winds become too dangerous for motorists, according to Hijuelos" http://www.weather.com/newscenter/specialreports/hurricanes/vulnerablecities/neworleans.html

Nowhere in your article does it say Bush insisted the governer call a state of emergency as you claimed. Perhaps you're confused and it was your mother told you this.

Furthermore, it appears that much of the "lawlessness" is the norm for this city http://www.freep.com/news/nw/neworleans22e_20050822.htm

That's an outrage, and probably explains a lot of what's going on now. I've lived in the very corrupt city of Brockton MA for a short period of time and..it seems to me that the same situation existed in NO. Where the government officials were more concerned with lining their own pockets and running their own drug and prostitute rings then taking care of the cities people.

I'm puzzled how does a high crime rate cause this??

The BBC's Matt Frei, in New Orleans, says conditions in the city's convention centre, where up to 20,000 more are stranded, are the most wretched he has seen anywhere, including crises in the Third World.

"You've got an entire nursing home evacuated five days ago - people in wheelchairs sitting there and slowly dying," he says.

Being prepared is the STATES responsibility and it appears they didn't even follow their own emergency plan. I think there's plenty of blame to go around. This tells me I should make sure that my state is prepared and follows emergency plans when an emergency arises. Although, having been here for the ice storm several years back, I feel pretty comfortable that people here wouldn't be shooting at the helicopters sent into rescue them.

Utter twaddle. If the federal government has no responsibility then why do they have an emergency reserve fund to assist in precisely this scenario. BTW has there been a single disaster in the USA in the the past 50 years that you have not been in the middle of? You seem to be most unfortunate. I was also surprised by your response to another post that despite your father being in the USAAF and a scout leader you struggled to get C rations during one of the many disasters you've lived through. I thought the motto of the scouts was "be prepared"

 

[Skyhunter]

Yes there is plenty of blame to go around.

On another thread people are calling for ideas to help solve the Iraq debacle. (Actually I think they just want an end to what is becoming America's new favorite pastime...Bush bashing.)

Since the New Orleans disaster is a stark example of the incompetence and utter failure of our leaders to...what is the word I'm looking for... oh yea LEAD.

I am starting a new thread.

How do we reform the US political system to put leaders in office!

 

[alexandra]

I am starting a new thread.

How do we reform the US political system to put leaders in office!

But Skyhunter, you are assuming that 'democracy' can be reformed! I'll state more of my views on why this is not possible in your new thread...

alex

 

[TRCSF]

Ah, so it turns out that FEMA director from Mike Brown has been in troubled before.

He was fired from his last job.

For incompetence.

As a Judges and Stewards Commisioner at the International Arabian Horses Association.

It's like one bad joke that just doesn't stop.

 

[russ_watters]

Can you provide a source for this please? It seems to contradict statements Bush made 3 days after the disaster began that nobody could have predicted it.

Speaking of providing sources, how about a source for that?

I think you will find the vast majority of the affected states' emergency response equipment and comms were destroyed in the floods

And that.

whilst their national guardsmen are otherwise deployed at this time.

And that.

And how 'bout an explanation of why the emergency response equipment/comms were destroyed? Shouldn't they have been better protected? I guess, though, it's still the federal governments job to keep the states from screwing up, huh?

 

[TRCSF]

For the person(s) who thinks it was entirely the state's responsibility to handle the disaster, it was actually the FEMA's responsibility since last friday when Bush declared it a national emergency.

We all know what the 'F' in FEMA stands for, right?

 

[russ_watters]

For the person(s) who thinks it was entirely the state's responsibility...

No one is saying it is entirely the states' responsibility, we're just showing the other side of the coin to those who are saying it's entirely Bush's responsibility. Heck, even saying it was entirely the federal government's responsibility would be an improvment from those who are simply blaming Bush personally.

 

[Astronuc]

Another perspective -

Did New Orleans Catastrophe Have to Happen?
News: Times-Picayune Had Repeatedly Raised Federal Spending Issues

http://www.motherjones.com/news/update/2005/09/new_orleans.html

Yes - I know its a liberal perspective - but this is perhaps the best thread in which to put it. It's someones opinion, and at this point anecdotal.

Hopefully we as a people and a nation will learn from this tradgedy and this time make sure it is not repeated.

Afterall, this is suppose to be the UNITED States of America!

 

[TRCSF]

Speaking of providing sources, how about a source for that? And that.And that.

Bush saying nobody could have predicted the levees breaking...

http://www.fema.gov/press/2005/katrinadonations.shtm

Bush, "I don't think anybody anticipated a breach in those levees."

Unclear if it was Bush Jr. or Sr., but either or is disgusting.

Since they're just using the term "Bush", they're likely referring to Junior. Usually they specify Senior.

And just to pour a little salt on that wound...

"Any politician who tells you they didn't see this coming is not worth your respect and certainly not worth your vote"

- Joe Scarborough, ultra-conservative former politician and right-wing pundit.

So much for partisan politics.

 

[TRCSF]

Heck, even saying it was entirely the federal government's responsibility would be an improvment from those who are simply blaming Bush personally.

If you haven't been paying attention recently, Bush is, technically, the President of the United States of America. He's (supposed to be, anyway) in charge of FEMA and and this country's response to such disasters. Especially AFTER he federalized the emergency last week.

It's funny, the Republican party says it's the party of personal accountability, but they sure like to ignore that everytime Bush loses another major U.S. city.

 

[Art]

Speaking of providing sources, how about a source for that?

see post #65

And that.

see post #64

And that

see war in Iraq.

The paper says that the government failed to rise to the challenge - despite New Orleans' susceptibility to flooding being well known - and that the poor response was compounded because many local National Guard troops were away in Iraq.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4208962.stm
Or if you don't like these sources I'll take the republican route and get my mother's opinion for you with all the authority that holds
Russ as a moderator please show a bit of leadership and take the time to read the links I've already posted before wasting my time asking me to repeat them. (I wonder is lack of leadership a core republican trait )

As to why the equipment and comms went down I believe it was something to do with water.

 

[Art]

Here's an interesting quote containing an eyewitness report from somebody in the convention centre.

Thursday, September 1st, 2005
10:46 pm The Real News
The following is the result of an interview I just conducted via cell phone with a New Orleans citizen stranded at the Convention Center. I don't know what you're hearing in the mainstream media or in the press conferences from the city and state officials, but here is the truth:

"Bigfoot" is a bar manager and DJ on Bourbon Street, and is a local personality and icon in the city. He is a lifelong resident of the city, born and raised. He rode out the storm itself in the Iberville Projects because he knew he would be above any flood waters. Here is his story as told to me moments ago. I took notes while he talked and then I asked some questions:


Three days ago, police and national guard troops told citizens to head toward the Crescent City Connection Bridge to await transportation out of the area. The citizens trekked over to the Convention Center and waited for the buses which they were told would take them to Houston or Alabama or somewhere else, out of this area.

It's been 3 days, and the buses have yet to appear.

Although obviously he has no exact count, he estimates more than 10,000 people are packed into and around and outside the convention center still waiting for the buses. They had no food, no water, and no medicine for the last three days, until today, when the National Guard drove over the bridge above them, and tossed out supplies over the side crashing down to the ground below. Much of the supplies were destroyed from the drop. Many people tried to catch the supplies to protect them before they hit the ground. Some offered to walk all the way around up the bridge and bring the supplies down, but any attempt to approach the police or national guard resulted in weapons being aimed at them.

There are many infants and elderly people among them, as well as many people who were injured jumping out of windows to escape flood water and the like -- all of them in dire straights.

Any attempt to flag down police results in being told to get away at gunpoint. Hour after hour they watch buses pass by filled with people from other areas. Tensions are very high, and there has been at least one murder and several fights. 8 or 9 dead people have been stored in a freezer in the area, and 2 of these dead people are kids.

The people are so desperate that they're doing anything they can think of to impress the authorities enough to bring some buses. These things include standing in single file lines with the eldery in front, women and children next; sweeping up the area and cleaning the windows and anything else that would show the people are not barbarians.

The buses never stop.

Before the supplies were pitched off the bridge today, people had to break into buildings in the area to try to find food and water for their families. There was not enough. This spurred many families to break into cars to try to escape the city. There was no police response to the auto thefts until the mob reached the rich area -- Saulet Condos -- once they tried to get cars from there... well then the whole swat teams began showing up with rifles pointed. Snipers got on the roof and told people to get back.

He reports that the conditions are horrendous. Heat, mosquitoes and utter misery. The smell, he says, is "horrific."

He says it's the slowest mandatory evacuation ever, and he wants to know why they were told to go to the Convention Center area in the first place; furthermore, he reports that many of them with cell phones have contacts willing to come rescue them, but people are not being allowed through to pick them up.


I have "Bigfoot"'s phone number and will gladly give it to any city or state official who would like to tell him how everything is under control.

Addendum: Bigfoot just called to report that "they" (the authorities) are cleaning up the dead bodies at the Convention Center right now.

http://www.livejournal.com/users/interdictor/

 

[Art]

Ah, so it turns out that FEMA director from Mike Brown has been in troubled before.

He was fired from his last job.

For incompetence.

As a Judges and Stewards Commisioner at the International Arabian Horses Association.

It's like one bad joke that just doesn't stop.

I'm not surprised. Watching the guy talk he's in la la land.