News New Orleans disaster predicted in 2001

[pattylou]

Why is it so bad to say something like that?
What do you suggest he compare it to instead?

Fibonacci

sorry, i responded.

It's a minor point. It *either* illustrates his mentality, *or* is a calculated comment meant to remind people that we are in a "war on terrah." Which of those two choices seems like a good thing, in a leader? Neither, to my point of view.

I would describe the devastation as unbelieveable, horrific, Mother Nature at her fiercest, complete. I would not anthropomorphize it. What purpose does this serve? What mindset does it illustrate?

 

[pattylou]

So unless you meant to imply that seeing more coverage would incite increased criticism of the New Orleans municipal government, I don't see how these things apply.

No, I meant to imply that we are outraged because of what we are learning about the state of things in a swath of the southern US.

I then meant to imply that we might be equally outraged to learn that similar conditions exist because of our willful actions in another large city, and we aren't told about it, not at all.

I meant to imply some hypocrisy. Should there be anyone who thinks the conditions in New Orleans are unfit for human habitation, they should consider having their awareness raised about other parts of the globe where we have created similar conditions. They should consider whether they support that, or whether they *have* supported that.

Apologies to the initial poster for diverting the thread.

 

[Evo]

I'm watching the Katrina update on "Dateline" and it is just heartbreaking. People waiting to be moved out to shelter, but they aren't moving people out because there is no where to move them. People are setting out on foot along the highways. There were three nurses, wounded, that had been treating people, having lost everything themselves. So sad.

 

[TRCSF]

LOL. Kanye West telling it like it is on live TV to an audience of millions.

“I hate the way they portray us in the media. You see a black family and they say we are looting, you see a white family and they say they are looking for food. And, you know, its been five days because most of the people ARE black. And even for me to complain, I would be a hypocrite because I would turn away from the TV because it’s too hard to watch. I’ve even been shopping before even giving a donation, so now I’m calling my business manager right to see what is the biggest amount I can give. And just to imagine, if I was down there and those are my people down there. If there is anybody out there that wants to do anything that we can help about the way America is set up the help the poor, the black people, the less well off as slow as possible. Red cross is doing as much as they can. We already realize a lot of the people that could help are at war right now, fighting another way. And now they’ve given them permission to go down and shoot us.”

“George Bush doesn’t care about black people.”

 

[Evo]

LOL. Kanye West telling it like it is on live TV to an audience of millions.

“I hate the way they portray us in the media. You see a black family and they say we are looting, you see a white family and they say they are looking for food. And, you know, its been five days because most of the people ARE black. And even for me to complain, I would be a hypocrite because I would turn away from the TV because it’s too hard to watch. I’ve even been shopping before even giving a donation, so now I’m calling my business manager right to see what is the biggest amount I can give. And just to imagine, if I was down there and those are my people down there. If there is anybody out there that wants to do anything that we can help about the way America is set up the help the poor, the black people, the less well off as slow as possible. Red cross is doing as much as they can. We already realize a lot of the people that could help are at war right now, fighting another way. And now they’ve given them permission to go down and shoot us.”

“George Bush doesn’t care about black people.”

What on Earth are you watching?

 

[TRCSF]

What on Earth are you watching?

It's from the celebrity telethon on network TV.

 

[Lisa!]

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050903/ap_on_go_pr_wh/katrina_bush

 

[TRCSF]

Looks like those rumors about "those people" shooting at helicopters were unfounded.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=1087205

Spokesperson for the FAA says that no such report was every filed with them. If a helicopter had been fired at, the pilots would have reported it.

Looks like the rumor about the shooting is every bit as false, silly, and malicious as the one about "those people" resorting to cannabilism.

 

[ray b]

yes they told people to get out
but they should have TAKEN THEM OUT
city buses school buses all city cars and trucks
most of that equipment is now junk thanks to being under water NOW
the city would have save a lot of money by moving their stuff out of the flood BEFORE THE HURRICANE
and rented more cars trucks and buses to move the people out
THEY DIDNOT DO IT

the city officals knew the places was a trap if the levies broke

they also should have had a plan to repair the breaks QUICKLY
a tug barge and crane could have stop the breaks BEFORE THEY GOT BAD
if you live underwater [below sea level] you should have a plan and equipment in place ready to fix breaks

FEMA is always slow to react they do a desent job but always late and slow to get going

after ANDREW here in MIAMI it to a week to begin to get the troops and releaf efforts going
sad to see the same slow start 12 years later

 

[Rabid]

Here is a video of Geraldo and Shepard Smith reporting from NO.
They have been replaying this on FOX, in case anyone missed it or doesn't have access.

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2005/09/02.html#a4763

 

[BobG]

yes they told people to get out
but they should have TAKEN THEM OUT
city buses school buses all city cars and trucks
most of that equipment is now junk thanks to being under water NOW
the city would have save a lot of money by moving their stuff out of the flood BEFORE THE HURRICANE
and rented more cars trucks and buses to move the people out
THEY DIDNOT DO IT

the city officals knew the places was a trap if the levies broke

they also should have had a plan to repair the breaks QUICKLY
a tug barge and crane could have stop the breaks BEFORE THEY GOT BAD
if you live underwater [below sea level] you should have a plan and equipment in place ready to fix breaks

FEMA is always slow to react they do a desent job but always late and slow to get going

after ANDREW here in MIAMI it to a week to begin to get the troops and releaf efforts going
sad to see the same slow start 12 years later

Even if the city wasn't able to evacuate people before the hurricane, leaving that many school buses in low lying areas was a major breakdown in itself. I kind of wonder who was supposed to drive those buses. What happens when the bus drivers evacuate with their own families? The 'plan' had some major gaps that just weren't covered.

Fixing the levees quickly in the middle of the flooding would have been a major accomplishment. I'm not sure if it was possible or not but it sure wouldn't have had a good enough chance of success to be the major component of a plan.

FEMA traditionally has been very slow and ineffective. It's slow response to Hurricane Andrew played a role in Bush 41's defeat in '92. I think the role it played in the campaign wasn't lost on Clinton. As much as I despise other things about Clinton, FEMA was actually an effective organization when Clinton put Witt in charge and elevated it to a cabinet level position. It's fallen back to it's traditional role of being a slow responding, after-the-fact organization buried in the larger bureaucracy of the Department of Homeland Defense.

Bush wasn't very enthusiastic about creating the DHS in the first place. He felt it just added another layer of bureacracy between Washington and response agencies. It has. What it shows is that Bush and others didn't really get the point of DHS - give it control and authority to put a coordinated response into action quickly. Either that or Bush was right - anything based in Washington will quickly become much better at pushing papers (and even better at slapping each other on the back in press conferences) than pushing people and material. Either way, it didn't accomplish the task it was created for.

 

[Skyhunter]

Fixing the levees quickly in the middle of the flooding would have been a major accomplishment. I'm not sure if it was possible or not but it sure wouldn't have had a good enough chance of success to be the major component of a plan.

They made a valiant attempt but the water was to strong, now that the levels are equalizing they will repair the 17th street breach and then breech the levee in other places to help drain the city. The ACE general on the ground said it should take about 80 days but his boss wouldn't offer a time frame.

FEMA traditionally has been very slow and ineffective. It's slow response to Hurricane Andrew played a role in Bush 41's defeat in '92. I think the role it played in the campaign wasn't lost on Clinton. As much as I despise other things about Clinton, FEMA was actually an effective organization when Clinton put Witt in charge and elevated it to a cabinet level position. It's fallen back to it's traditional role of being a slow responding, after-the-fact organization buried in the larger bureaucracy of the Department of Homeland Defense.

That made sense to me. Put a guy in charge that has experience and a proven track record. Not because he donated money to your campaign. Witt was a Clinton backer, but he was also experienced with construction and emergency management.

"I am extremely concerned that the ability of our nation to prepare for and respond to disasters has been sharply eroded...I hear from emergency managers, local and state leaders, and first responders nearly every day that the FEMA they knew and worked well with has now disappeared. In fact one state emergency manager told me, 'It is like a stake has been driven into the heart of emergency management.'" - James Lee Witt, former FEMA director, testifying before Congress in March, 2004

When hurricanes were in the gulf during his watch he would have hospital ships ready to move in right behind the storm. If they were not necessary all the better. Dispatching on from NJ 5 days after the storm hit is the epitome of incompetence

Bush wasn't very enthusiastic about creating the DHS in the first place. He felt it just added another layer of bureacracy between Washington and response agencies. It has. What it shows is that Bush and others didn't really get the point of DHS - give it control and authority to put a coordinated response into action quickly. Either that or Bush was right - anything based in Washington will quickly become much better at pushing papers (and even better at slapping each other on the back in press conferences) than pushing people and material. Either way, it didn't accomplish the task it was created for.

He did with FEMA what he is doing to the rest of the government. Dismantled it and gave it to political supporters.

 

[Zlex]

Wouldn't it be lovely if rain was really gumdrops, and snow was M&Ms?

And, if an asteroid the size of Utah is heading towards the earth, we should have 10,000 deep space missiles ready to go to blast it to bits. No, wait a minute, we can send out Bruce Willis on a Titanium armoured Space Shuttle, hope that it isn't hit by any foam insulation during launch, and he and a crew of lovable now uemployed roustabouts from New Orleans can blast it out of the sky, just in time.

In the case of Hurricanes, there should be triple walled levees capable of withstanding 50 ft waves for a month, built in a continuous, impenetrable ring around the entire US coastline. But, just in case, there should be a constantly refreshed emergency supply of fresh food and water, sufficient to feed ten million folks, strategically placed every 50 miles. Coast Guard personnel in constantly idling hovercraft should be ready at a moments notice to sprint to the aid of those in sudden peril, accompanied by armed NG troops to make it safe to save 'the greatest people on earth' from shooting at the helos.

From this point on, citizens of the USA should be required to wear kapok lifevests 24/7/365, just in case.
At birth, citizens should immediately be wrapped in 18 inches of foam from head to toe, just in case. However, the foam must be manufactured without releasing any undue amount of VOCs into the air, preferably by elves.

Because the economy and stability of the greatest country the world has ever seen should not be in a position where one big natural disaster effecting one area should screw it all up.

Oh, and did I mention, we need to do all this without building anymore oil refineries, nuclear power plants, pipelines, coal fired power plants? Without generating any waste? Without spoiling anybody's view? Without big bad business gov't contractors? Without a single eeeevil cor-por-a-shun? Without anyone in sight making more than MW, which, by the way, should be much, much higher?

How? Not my problem. FOrget the math, and try 'solar.' But, don't block anybody's view while you're at it, and don't put it in space, and, well, just do it.

Or Hydrogen? We'll go to the Hydrogen store, and buy some.

WIND! Hey, how about wind! Just...keep your damn windmills away from Teddy's Cape Cod retreat.

We so deserve what we're about to get. With any luck, it culls the herd.

 

[alexandra]

I was just doing the 'news rounds' (daily reading stuff) and came across this article about NO - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4210674.stm . It's an interesting read, because it touches on the issues of poverty and racism, etc.

alex

 

[Astronuc]

Even if the city wasn't able to evacuate people before the hurricane, leaving that many school buses in low lying areas was a major breakdown in itself. I kind of wonder who was supposed to drive those buses. What happens when the bus drivers evacuate with their own families? The 'plan' had some major gaps that just weren't covered.

And that certainly falls on the shoulder's of the mayor and city administration. There was certainly and opportunity for local officials to do it themselves. All those buses and trucks, which are now underwater, should have been driven to higher ground - like near the Superdome. And this is certainly not a federal problem - it's local.

Fixing the levees quickly in the middle of the flooding would have been a major accomplishment. I'm not sure if it was possible or not but it sure wouldn't have had a good enough chance of success to be the major component of a plan.

Fixing a major problem like a levee break in the middle of a hurricane is just not practical. Protective systems need to be designed so that they don't fail - a very simple and straightforward premise.

FEMA traditionally has been very slow and ineffective. . . . It's fallen back to it's traditional role of being a slow responding, after-the-fact organization buried in the larger bureaucracy of the Department of Homeland Defense.

Hopefully that will change in the wake of this disaster.

Bush wasn't very enthusiastic about creating the DHS in the first place. He felt it just added another layer of bureacracy between Washington and response agencies. It has. What it shows is that Bush and others didn't really get the point of DHS - give it control and authority to put a coordinated response into action quickly. Either that or Bush was right - anything based in Washington will quickly become much better at pushing papers (and even better at slapping each other on the back in press conferences) than pushing people and material. Either way, it didn't accomplish the task it was created for.

Bush needs to find the right people. I think some of the people he nominated and Congress approved let him and the nation down. I know he gets the heat (fair or not), because he is the president and it his watch.

I think quite a few people at DHS/FEMA need to resign, and Bush needs to find people who will be proactive.

I seem to remember some flack a few months ago about DHS spending huge amounts of money on parties and awards ceremonies. At this point, I have to wonder on what has DHS been spending money. Certainly it was not for planning for disasters like Katrina - which is their job.

And quite a few Republican Congresspersons and Senators are asking - WT#?

 

[1123581321]

LOL. Kanye West telling it like it is on live TV to an audience of millions.

“I hate the way they portray us in the media. You see a black family and they say we are looting, you see a white family and they say they are looking for food. And, you know, its been five days because most of the people ARE black. And even for me to complain, I would be a hypocrite because I would turn away from the TV because it’s too hard to watch. I’ve even been shopping before even giving a donation, so now I’m calling my business manager right to see what is the biggest amount I can give. And just to imagine, if I was down there and those are my people down there. If there is anybody out there that wants to do anything that we can help about the way America is set up the help the poor, the black people, the less well off as slow as possible. Red cross is doing as much as they can. We already realize a lot of the people that could help are at war right now, fighting another way. And now they’ve given them permission to go down and shoot us.”

“George Bush doesn’t care about black people.”

That is the biggist load of bull**** i have ever heard. Come on, do you really think that? There is 8000 or so Natl.gurard in louisiana, its the governers fault for not ordering them in there.

Please, quit this race-card thing.

Fibonacci

 

[1123581321]

Looks like those rumors about "those people" shooting at helicopters were unfounded.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=1087205

Spokesperson for the FAA says that no such report was every filed with them. If a helicopter had been fired at, the pilots would have reported it.

Looks like the rumor about the shooting is every bit as false, silly, and malicious as the one about "those people" resorting to cannabilism.

Unless it was a millitary one. They don't deal with the FAA.

 

[1123581321]

Wouldn't it be lovely if rain was really gumdrops, and snow was M&Ms?

And, if an asteroid the size of Utah is heading towards the earth, we should have 10,000 deep space missiles ready to go to blast it to bits. No, wait a minute, we can send out Bruce Willis on a Titanium armoured Space Shuttle, hope that it isn't hit by any foam insulation during launch, and he and a crew of lovable now uemployed roustabouts from New Orleans can blast it out of the sky, just in time.

In the case of Hurricanes, there should be triple walled levees capable of withstanding 50 ft waves for a month, built in a continuous, impenetrable ring around the entire US coastline. But, just in case, there should be a constantly refreshed emergency supply of fresh food and water, sufficient to feed ten million folks, strategically placed every 50 miles. Coast Guard personnel in constantly idling hovercraft should be ready at a moments notice to sprint to the aid of those in sudden peril, accompanied by armed NG troops to make it safe to save 'the greatest people on earth' from shooting at the helos.

From this point on, citizens of the USA should be required to wear kapok lifevests 24/7/365, just in case.
At birth, citizens should immediately be wrapped in 18 inches of foam from head to toe, just in case. However, the foam must be manufactured without releasing any undue amount of VOCs into the air, preferably by elves.

Because the economy and stability of the greatest country the world has ever seen should not be in a position where one big natural disaster effecting one area should screw it all up.

Oh, and did I mention, we need to do all this without building anymore oil refineries, nuclear power plants, pipelines, coal fired power plants? Without generating any waste? Without spoiling anybody's view? Without big bad business gov't contractors? Without a single eeeevil cor-por-a-shun? Without anyone in sight making more than MW, which, by the way, should be much, much higher?

How? Not my problem. FOrget the math, and try 'solar.' But, don't block anybody's view while you're at it, and don't put it in space, and, well, just do it.

Or Hydrogen? We'll go to the Hydrogen store, and buy some.

WIND! Hey, how about wind! Just...keep your damn windmills away from Teddy's Cape Cod retreat.

We so deserve what we're about to get. With any luck, it culls the herd.

That just came out of nowhere.

 

[Astronuc]

Wouldn't it be lovely if rain was really gumdrops, and snow was M&Ms?
.
.
.
We so deserve what we're about to get. With any luck, it culls the herd.

Chemically enhanced vivid imagination?

 

[Astronuc]

That is the biggist load of bull**** i have ever heard. Come on, do you really think that? There is 8000 or so Natl.gurard in louisiana, its the governers fault for not ordering them in there.

It is an unfortunate statement by Kayne. Bush certainly had nothing personally to do with the delay. But his administration if responsible for DHS and their organizations such as FEMA. Bush appointed those people and Congress as well as the president oversees them.

The governor of any state can call up the National Guard in that state. Many (don't know what fraction) of Louisiana's National Guard are in Iraq.

Bush has mobilized National Guard personnel in 19 states and Wash DC. Apparently only he or someone he designates (?) can do that. The president is Commander-in-Chief.

 

[1123581321]

The governor of any state can call up the National Guard in that state. Many (don't know what fraction) of Louisiana's National Guard are in Iraq.

QUOTE]

From what i heard, 4000 in iraq and 8000 in louisiana.
I had a hard time finding a credible source to confirm that, so if someone might stumble across it, they can post it.

 

[Astronuc]

Today's Louisiana Army and Air National Guard consists of 74 units spread among 43 cities and towns of the state and numbers some 11,500 Army and Air Guardsmen. As a result of various reorganizations the present Army Guard is composed of a State Headquarters and Headquarters Detachment, 204th Area Support Group, the 256th Separate Infantry Brigade, the 225th Engineer Group and various Medical, Maintenance, Aviation, Military Police, Armored Cavalry and Special Forces units and the 156th Army Band.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/army/arng-la.htm - don't know how old.

As Hurricane Katrina surged past New Orleans, Louisiana mobilized its soldiers to help, as did Mississippi, Alabama and other southern states. Despite prominent roles in the War on Terror, the states report more than the 50 percent strength mandated for homeland missions. Louisiana has 65 percent of its troops available for state missions; Mississippi, 60 percent; Alabama, 77 percent; and Florida, 74 percent, Guard officials said.

"It's a calming and reassuring effect on the American public when they see their National Guard," Army Lt. Gen. H. Steven Blum, National Guard Bureau commander, said. "When you call out the Guard, you know that you've got committed citizen-soldiers with considerable skills and a great commitment to the mission at hand."

The Louisiana National Guard had called almost 3,500 of its members to state active duty as of 7 a.m. Monday to help with missions that ranged from aiding law enforcement agencies with traffic control and security to conducting searches and rescues and providing generator support. Guard members conducted security and screening at the emergency shelter at the New Orleans Superdome, and elsewhere helped state police with evacuations.

http://www.shreveporttimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050830/NEWS01/508300352/1002/NEWS

I do believe the LA National Guard were in New Orleans as early as Tuesday, but clearly that was not enough. Other units were presumably outside the city in other areas which were also hit.

 

[edward]

That is the biggist load of bull**** i have ever heard. Come on, do you really think that? There is 8000 or so Natl.gurard in louisiana, its the governers fault for not ordering them in there.

Please, quit this race-card thing.

Fibonacci

Governors fault or not, this racial card was left out on the table for the whole world to see, now we have to deal with it.

If over 50,000 white people had been left stranded in the heat without food or water in NO, it would not have taken 4 days to get them out. But that is a moot point. 50,000 white people would not have been left standed in NO.

 

[Townsend]

Governors fault or not, this racial card was left out on the table for the whole world to see, now we have to deal with it.

If over 50,000 white people had been left stranded in the heat without food or water in NO, it would not have taken 4 days to get them out. But that is a moot point. 50,000 white people would not have been left standed in NO.

http://www.chipublib.org/004chicago/timeline/greatfire.html

By the way, Chicago rebuilt the city, not the federal government. In fact I don't think the federal government did any thing to help Chicago out...

Seems to me that your contention that "If over 50,000 white people had been left stranded in the heat without food or water..." does not seem to have much merit.

 

[edward]

Seems to me that your contention that "If over 50,000 white people had been left stranded in the heat without food or water..." does not seem to have much merit.

Only my opinion based on past experience. Like I said it is a moot point. We still have to deal with what did happen.

 

[1123581321]

Governors fault or not, this racial card was left out on the table for the whole world to see, now we have to deal with it.

If over 50,000 white people had been left stranded in the heat without food or water in NO, it would not have taken 4 days to get them out. But that is a moot point. 50,000 white people would not have been left standed in NO.

How's that? What's your logic? Did you copy and paste that directly off your DNC talking points, or did you change the wording a little?

 

[1123581321]

http://www.chipublib.org/004chicago/timeline/greatfire.html

By the way, Chicago rebuilt the city, not the federal government. In fact I don't think the federal government did any thing to help Chicago out...

Seems to me that your contention that "If over 50,000 white people had been left stranded in the heat without food or water..." does not seem to have much merit.

Why are we talking about chicago now, did i miss something?

 

[Townsend]

Why are we talking about chicago now, did i miss something?

Were not...you don't seem to understand why I posted that...

 

[1123581321]

Were not...you don't seem to understand why I posted that...

but it has nothing to do with racism.

 

[Skyhunter]

Spokesperson for the FAA says that no such report was every filed with them. If a helicopter had been fired at, the pilots would have reported it.

Sourced challenge.

Unless it was a millitary one. They don't deal with the FAA.

Unsourced defense.

Pure speculation. If you don't know find out before you post.

 

[Townsend]

but it has nothing to do with racism.

Why isn't it racism? The government didn't do anything for those poor white people, it must have been racism. Clearly the government did not care about white people or it would have done more.

 

[Skyhunter]

That is the biggist load of bull**** i have ever heard. Come on, do you really think that? There is 8000 or so Natl.gurard in louisiana, its the governers fault for not ordering them in there.

Please, quit this race-card thing.

Fibonacci

Edward is right. Race is part of this issue. Anyone watching the news the last week knows that. You can't ignore an issue just because it might be uncomfortable.

I have been hearing reports from people down there that the Red Cross is not being allowed to give people food and water because the authorities on the ground don't want to encourage people to stay. There is 20% of New Orleans that is still intact. There are a lot of residents who are there in that 20% that is intact that want to help and are not being allowed.

Why would they want everyone to leave?

 

[Evo]

I have been hearing reports from people down there that the Red Cross is not being allowed to give people food and water because the authorities on the ground don't want to encourage people to stay. There is 20% of New Orleans that is still intact. There are a lot of residents who are there in that 20% that is intact that want to help and are not being allowed.

Why would they want everyone to leave?

Can the city in its current condition provide for the 20%? Food, water, electricity, gas, sanitation, emergency medical, etc...?

Perhaps it's the beginning of the end for New Orleans. Should the city be rebuiilt at this location? I'd say no. And I realize how devastating that is. And, I don't have an answer to the problem of moving the victims permanently. This is a serious issue with no easy answers.

 

[Skyhunter]

Why isn't it racism? The government didn't do anything for those poor white people, it must have been racism. Clearly the government did not care about white people or it would have done more.

As you so eloquently point out it is primarily about poverty. So it is a racial issue indirectly, since there are disproportionately more poor blacks than poor whites.

 

[Skyhunter]

Can the city in its current condition provide for the 20%? Food, water, electricity, gas, sanitation, emergency medical, etc...?

Perhaps it's the beginning of the end for New Orleans. Should the city be rebuiilt at this location? I'd say no. And I realize how devastating that is. And, I don't have an answer to the problem of moving the victims permanently. This is a serious issue with no easy answers.

This thought occurred to me also. I was wondering if anyone knew anything. I can speculate but would prefer not to.

 

[Townsend]

As you so eloquently point out it is primarily about poverty. So it is a racial issue indirectly, since there are disproportionately more poor blacks than poor whites.

Perhaps it is a class issue. I would agree that there are disproportionately more poor blacks than whites but I don't know the reason for that.

Perhaps there are a lot of racist people still in the world, I wouldn't disagree with you if you said so. Perhaps that is why there are so many poor black people. I couldn't say for sure but it would seem to be a reasonable theory.

The problem is that racism is not against the law. No matter how detrimental to the well being of society it may be, people have a right to hate. I have had the misfortune of knowing some racist people that were black, white, mexican and even asian.

I don't think anyone really knows the exact reason for there being so many poor blacks. It is a problem and if anything this disaster has made it very obvious. However to accuse the government of being racist is a slippery slope at best and blind hatred at worst.

 

[Art]

Unsourced defense.

Pure speculation. If you don't know find out before you post.

Yes you are right. Some people here do have a nasty habit of presenting their uninformed opinions as fact. Here's a sourced report which says NO aircraft were fired on.

Laura Brown, a Federal Aviation Administration spokeswoman in Washington, said she had no such report.

"We're controlling every single aircraft in that airspace and none of them reported being fired on," she said, adding that the FAA was in contact with the military as well as civilian aircraft.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=1087205

In an interview on TV tonight FEMA director (sic) Mike Brown is now trying to cover his gross incompetence and ineptitude by claiming the reason the rescue operation was such a debacle was due to the security situation in NO.

It appears this is developing as the common excuse to be used by the neocons to defend their 'compassionate conservative' administration's total f' up.

 

[Townsend]

It appears this is developing as the common excuse to be used by the neocons to defend their 'compassionate conservative' administration's total f' up.

Just so were all on the same page...this is only an opinion and not a fact, right?

snipers

-- The evacuation of patients from Charity Hospital was halted Thursday after the facility came under sniper fire twice.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/09/01/katrina.impact/

-- Violence disrupted relief efforts Thursday in New Orleans as authorities rescued desperate residents still trapped in the flooded city and tried to evacuate thousands of others living among corpses and human waste.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4828774

The situation in New Orleans continues to deteriorate, with widespread flooding and looting. The evacuation of thousands of people from the Superdome in the city was halted early Thursday when shots were fired at military helicopters. There are reports of armed carjackings

Hmmmm... What were you saying about those neocons again? According to at least some reports there was in fact some people shooting at military helicopters.

 

[Art]

Just so were all on the same page...this is only an opinion and not a fact, right?

Yes you got it! Well done Trowsers. As you mature you'll begin to understand the difference between opinions and facts instinctively without having to ask but in the meantime if you find yourself struggling just ask. I'll be glad to help

 

[Townsend]

Yes you got it! Well done Trowsers. As you mature you'll begin to understand the difference between opinions and facts instinctively without having to ask but in the meantime if you find yourself struggling just ask. I'll be glad to help

Ok thanks...now can you also show me how to take your foot out of your mouth?

 

[Skyhunter]

I don't think anyone really knows the exact reason for there being so many poor blacks. It is a problem and if anything this disaster has made it very obvious. However to accuse the government of being racist is a slippery slope at best and blind hatred at worst.

I agree, but he was accusing Bush, not the government.

 

[Art]

Hmmmm... What were you saying about those neocons again? According to at least some reports there was in fact some people shooting at military helicopters.

Painful as it is I'll try to explain it so that you will understand.

When there are reports on 'whatever' the way to investigate if they are true or not is to go to the authority in charge for corroboration. In this case the authority is the FAA. The FAA say they have not received any reports of aircraft being fired on either civil or military. Hence it would appear unless further information comes to light that the reports were simply rumours you know, like modern day legends.

 

[Skyhunter]

Yes you got it! Well done Trowsers. As you mature you'll begin to understand the difference between opinions and facts instinctively without having to ask but in the meantime if you find yourself struggling just ask. I'll be glad to help

No need to get personal there are reports from witnesses but the FAA says it has no reported incidents from pilots. I would advise we withhold judgement until we have more information.

 

[Art]

No need to get personal there are reports from witnesses but the FAA says it has no reported incidents from pilots. I would advise we withhold judgement until we have more information.

He asked me if part of what I wrote was opinion or fact so I answered him and offered help if he finds himself stuck in the future. What's personal about that? Unless of course he was being sarcastic in which case I suppose my reply might also be construed as sarcasm.

 

[Evo]

Lighten up Art, I know you can do it.

 

[Art]

Lighten up Art, I know you can do it.

And I thought I was adding a touch of brevity

 

[Townsend]

Painful as it is I'll try to explain it so that you will understand.

When there are reports on 'whatever' the way to investigate if they are true or not is to go to the authority in charge for corroboration. In this case the authority is the FAA. The FAA say they have not received any reports of aircraft being fired on either civil or military. Hence it would appear unless further information comes to light that the reports were simply rumours you know, like modern day legends.

You're right...I guess I didn't see it that way until you pointed it out.

Oh, and sorry for causing you so much pain.

 

[Art]

You're right...I guess I didn't see it that way until you pointed it out.

Oh, and sorry for causing you so much pain.

lol is that sarcasm by any chance?

 

[Astronuc]

Perhaps it's the beginning of the end for New Orleans. Should the city be rebuiilt at this location?

Well from a practical side, New Orleans is a significant port for grain and agricultural products being shipped from the central US. Barges from the Missouri, Mississippi, and Ohio systems bring grain to New Orleans to be loaded onto ships for export.

Sending those commodities to other ports would require rail and a concomittant increase in cost. In addition, storage and transfer infrastructure would have to be built, and those ports would have to deal with increased congestion.

Interstate I-10 carries a lot of truck traffic between Texas and the SE US, and New Orleans is a major railroad hub, with a lot of interchange among UP and KCS from the west with CSX and NS from the east.

Parts of New Orleans will have to be rebuilt. Much of the low lying areas probably should not be rebuilt. A straight-forward flood plane needs to be placed between the Mississippi and Lake Ponchatrain to get the water past the city. It will take a considerable study to determine the optimal configuration for rebuilding.

I don't think anyone really knows the exact reason for there being so many poor blacks.

Segregation and unequal access to education are the primary causes for so many black poor. Despite 'open-housing', blacks and whites (and other ethnic groups as well) still live in largely segregrated communities (neighborhoods), and there is often little close social interaction other than work or commercial transactions. I have seen it throughout the country, and it is not necessarily prevalent in the south. I have seen it in the so-called Liberal Northeast, central US, West Coast, Northwest - everywhere!

It would take some really profound leadership to begin to change these problems.

 

[Townsend]

lol is that sarcasm by any chance?

Not at all...

I just want to move on. I shouldn't have to avoid replying to one of your post just to avoid having a childish confrontation. If that means I need to admit to you that I am wrong and you're right then that is what I will do.

I just don't see the point in going back and forth like we have all over nothing.