News Osama Bin Laden killed by US in Pakistan

[Lacy33]

Wow! Higher Powers DO intercede on our behalf to keep us from getting skinned alive!

 

[Newai]

they need to release the photos. because the way they've handled things after the operation makes it look like they are hiding something. they disposed of the body quickly when there was no real need. they could have brought in witnesses from various press to view the body without taking photos, but they did not. they first said they were willing to take him alive, but said he resisted, but he either did not or the resistance was minimal. there was no armed resistance encountered at all. without evidence of a body, people may just assume he is alive and being subject to interrogation in guantanamo. perhaps the idea of a bin laden being waterboarded or worse is more damaging than the image of a bin laden with a gaping head wound.

Will that work? Will they really believe the photos are real? Because if they don't believe Obama standing in front of the world making a claim like this...

 

[Proton Soup]

Will that work? Will they really believe the photos are real? Because if they don't believe Obama standing in front of the world making a claim like this...

it won't work for everyone. especially if they release something fairly low resolution. like i said, i think they've already screwed up by doing all of this body disposal in private. but surely they've got a huge amount of video and photography available. it would be hard to fake a large amount, easy to fake a still for public consumption. so bring in the major news orgs, including al jazeera, and let them view the stuff.

as for witnesses who were taken in custody, i guess we'll have to wait to see exactly what they saw.

 

[russ_watters]

I heard some new analysis on the radio today I thought was interesting:

The US forces were on the ground for 40 minutes and came in massive helicpoters. Where were the Pakistanis for those 40 minutes? How could no one have responded to the interdiction, whether military, police, crowd of gawking onlookers, etc?

I suppose the answers aren't much different from what we already heard in response to the "how didn't they know?" Question: Incompetence, ambivalence or complicity are the three possible answers.

 

[rootX]

I heard some new analysis on the radio today I thought was interesting:

The US forces were on the ground for 40 minutes and came in massive helicpoters. Where were the Pakistanis for those 40 minutes? How could no one have responded to the interdiction, whether military, police, crowd of gawking onlookers, etc?

One more interesting thing is that locals reported that they were told by Pakistan authorities to switch off their lights one hour prior to the attack.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/mobile/world-south-asia-13257330?SThisFB

Residents describe hearing three explosions several minutes apart, followed by a huge explosion that shook their houses and knocked crockery from shelves. Most residents said they then also heard gunshots, but that the firing was brief, just a couple of minutes or so.

As the explosions started, they say, the lights in the area went off, going on and off again shortly afterwards. One report quotes some residents as saying they were commanded in Pashto - not the common language of the area - to turn their lights off, but this is unconfirmed.

Note it is unconfirmed though.

 

[Borg]

I really have too much time on my hands. Anagrams for "Bin Laden is dead"

In A Bedside Land
Land Bidden Seal
A Disbanded Line
Bandied Denials
Nailed As Bidden

 

[Ivan Seeking]

it won't work for everyone. especially if they release something fairly low resolution. like i said, i think they've already screwed up by doing all of this body disposal in private. but surely they've got a huge amount of video and photography available. it would be hard to fake a large amount, easy to fake a still for public consumption. so bring in the major news orgs, including al jazeera, and let them view the stuff.

as for witnesses who were taken in custody, i guess we'll have to wait to see exactly what they saw.

I have been told that Trump is demanding that the long-form death certificate be released.

 

[Proton Soup]

I heard some new analysis on the radio today I thought was interesting:

The US forces were on the ground for 40 minutes and came in massive helicpoters. Where were the Pakistanis for those 40 minutes? How could no one have responded to the interdiction, whether military, police, crowd of gawking onlookers, etc?

I suppose the answers aren't much different from what we already heard in response to the "how didn't they know?" Question: Incompetence, ambivalence or complicity are the three possible answers.

the thing that bothered me on the first day of this were people on NPR (sorry, don't remember the names, but could probably find it on their site with a little work) that seemed to be banging the war drum against pakistan. the allegation was made that perhaps 1000's of people there must have known he was there but didn't say anything. therefore, we have a legitimate gripe against pakistan. of course, the implications are that you can have massive conspiracies where no one spills the beans. and that our intelligence is extremely poor if we can't uncover something supposedly so well-known. but if our intelligence is great, just how long have we known about it?

 

[Proton Soup]

I have been told that Trump is demanding that the long-form death certificate be released.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8TwRmX6zs4

 

[russ_watters]

the thing that bothered me on the first day of this were people on NPR (sorry, don't remember the names, but could probably find it on their site with a little work) that seemed to be banging the war drum against pakistan. the allegation was made that perhaps 1000's of people there must have known he was there but didn't say anything. therefore, we have a legitimate gripe against pakistan.

Whether they knew or were just incompetent, it certainly is a legitimate gripe. I wouldn't bang a war drum, though, I'd just stop giving them billions of dollars in aid. We're paying them to do something they aren't doing.

...of course, the implications are that you can have massive conspiracies where no one spills the beans. and that our intelligence is extremely poor if we can't uncover something supposedly so well-known.

I don't think the failure you are alleging for the US would be equivalent to the Pakistani failure: they (presumably) have several million more people looking for him in Pakistan than we do.

 

[lisab]

I heard some new analysis on the radio today I thought was interesting:

The US forces were on the ground for 40 minutes and came in massive helicpoters. Where were the Pakistanis for those 40 minutes? How could no one have responded to the interdiction, whether military, police, crowd of gawking onlookers, etc?

I suppose the answers aren't much different from what we already heard in response to the "how didn't they know?" Question: Incompetence, ambivalence or complicity are the three possible answers.

It's pretty mysterious. Perhaps the locals were used to helicopters due to the nearby military academy...? But that doesn't explain why those in the military academy didn't respond.

 

[Lacy33]

It's pretty mysterious. Perhaps the locals were used to helicopters due to the nearby military academy...? But that doesn't explain why those in the military academy didn't respond.

It was lunch time.

 

[russ_watters]

It's pretty mysterious. Perhaps the locals were used to helicopters due to the nearby military academy...? But that doesn't explain why those in the military academy didn't respond.

I'm not sure what the local "military academy" is about. It is being sold as the Pakistani equivalent of West Point. But if that's what it is, then:

1. It wouldn't have any helicopters of its own.
2. The soldiers there don't have guns, much less combat training and so can't respond to an attack.

However, they do presumably, have telephones which they could use to call someone who can respond. As do the retired military said to be living in the area.

 

[Proton Soup]

this is getting bizarre. senators are being shown fake photos? do our elected officials get their information off the internet?

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20059844-503544.html


and some very graphic photos from the scene sold by a pakistani official. at least one of the men was apparently armed with a water pistol. the structure in the yard is also interesting. is that a trellis for grapes, flowers, etc.? seems odd that it isn't grown over, as if they just moved in. unless that is to support a tarp or something for shade?

anyhoo, don't click if you don't want to see dead people:
http://www.calgarysun.com/2011/05/04/photos-show-three-dead-men-at-bin-laden-raid-house

 

[WhoWee]

I think it's a good move, there's no reason to see gore and it would only inflame those inclined to hate the US.

There's no legitimate reason to release the photos. Bin Laden's wife has made statements that she and their son witnessed his death.

IMO - there's also no reason for the White House to keep releasing details of the operation. Bin Laden is dead, was provided a very nice Muslim ceremony, and was buried - case closed.

 

[Amp1]

The US forces were on the ground for 40 minutes and came in massive helicpoters. Where were the Pakistanis for those 40 minutes? How could no one have responded to the interdiction, whether military, police, crowd of gawking onlookers, etc?

basic ghetto slang - Occam razor>>>>BATMAN SOUND EFFECTS<<<< BOOM >>>>> BANG <<<<< BONG

 

[OmCheeto]

Whenever I get confused, and want to run in circles, scream and shout, I listen to music:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kl3i1GMuyeU

When it's more than you can stand, hug the willow.

 

[Al68]

Let's not turn this into a left-right argument please. It seems you have conveniently left out an intervening President who wanted Bin Laden "dead or alive" one year, and claimed that his capture was not a priority the next year.

This is a good point, Bush failed to capture or kill Bin Laden, and Obama deserves credit for this huge accomplishment. If we're going to beat the guy up in all those other threads because we think he deserves it, we should give him credit in this thread where he deserves it.

I can see what you guys are saying. I guess I'm coming from the position of just wanting some kind of proof.

In this technological age, a picture posted online would never constitute proof to doubters. The proof is in the fact that if Bin Ladin were still alive and free, he could easily make it publicly known.

 

[DaveC426913]

The proof is in the fact that if Bin Ladin were still alive and free, he could easily make it publicly known.

Not that I feel the need to argue against his death but:

Why do you assume Bin Laden would want it known that he's alive? If everyone thought he was dead, it would take the heat off and he might get more done. I see it in every cop movie; it's got to be true.

 

[rootX]

Whether they knew or were just incompetent, it certainly is a legitimate gripe. I wouldn't bang a war drum, though, I'd just stop giving them billions of dollars in aid. We're paying them to do something they aren't doing. I don't think the failure you are alleging for the US would be equivalent to the Pakistani failure: they (presumably) have several million more people looking for him in Pakistan than we do.

Pakistan has been very useful in the past.

Cutting aid based on this event (which doesn't carry any big significance at all) might weaken the already incompetent Pakistan government making Pakistan another "Afghanistan before US invasion".

I feel like the US is in win-win situation. It can get more out of Pakistan now due to this embarrassing event with less aid.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1927018,00.html

One early effort in education already appears to be a cautionary tale. Improving schooling in the country has been a key focus of U.S. development efforts, both to undermine the need for and appeal of religious schools (or madrasahs) and to advance literacy, which is 43% among adults; two-thirds of Pakistani women cannot read or write. In long, jargon-filled reports, the principal USAID contractor on an $83 million, five-year education-sector reform project, North Carolina–headquartered RTI (also known as Research Triangle Institute), claims to have "positively impacted" more than 400,000 students (out of 70 million school-age kids) through strengthening policy and planning, teacher and school-administrator training, and youth and adult literacy. But when USAID's inspector general sent a team over in August 2007 to check on the progress, it could not validate the claims because the USAID mission in Islamabad "did not require RTI to adhere to reporting requirements critical to monitoring the program performance." The problem was serious enough for RTI, which derived close to 40% of its $710 million in revenues last year from USAID, to be disqualified from follow-on contracts on this particular project.

I am quoting one of the few areas in where I want to see improvement in.

 

[Al68]

Not that I feel the need to argue against his death but:

Why do you assume Bin Laden would want it known that he's alive? If everyone thought he was dead, it would take the heat off and he might get more done. I see it in every cop movie; it's got to be true.

I don't assume he would necessarily want it known he's alive, I assume only that there's a significant possibility that he would want it known he's alive, which would be more than enough reason for us not to risk lying about it.

 

[Proton Soup]

I don't assume he would necessarily want it known he's alive, I assume only that there's a significant possibility that he would want it known he's alive, which would be more than enough reason for us not to risk lying about it.

if you're going to consider the possibility that he's alive, then you must also consider the alive-but-in-custody possibility. that would invalidate your proof.

 

[DaveC426913]

I don't assume he would necessarily want it known he's alive, I assume only that there's a significant possibility that he would want it known he's alive, which would be more than enough reason for us not to risk lying about it.

OK, so the compelling argument for his being dead is the fact that the US government would not risk having a huge wad of egg on its face 'twere found to be untrue. Fair 'nuff.

Then again, it would not be the first time a governent took such a risk for short-term gain, hoping they could defer the long-term pain. If there were a re-election coming up, then doubly-so.

 

[WhoWee]

if you're going to consider the possibility that he's alive, then you must also consider the alive-but-in-custody possibility. that would invalidate your proof.

I participated in a survey back in 2002 or 2003. The scenario most desired by those polled concluded the best result would be to capture Bin Laden - question/hold him in secret. The intel gathered could result in the capture of additional terrorists and rumors could be started that would discredit him with followers. I don't have any links - please label IMO.

 

[Proton Soup]

interesting there was a video blackout. also, the thing about his daughter. still not clear if she witnessed his death.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ackout-during-raid-on-bin-Laden-compound.html

 

[OmCheeto]

interesting there was a video blackout. also, the thing about his daughter. still not clear if she witnessed his death.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ackout-during-raid-on-bin-Laden-compound.html

What?

Mr Panetta also told the network that the US Navy Seals made the final decision to kill bin Laden rather than the president.

Obama? Osama? Obama? Osama?

Oh what the hell, let's just shoot this one, he's a known mass murderer. And this other guy, well, he's our boss.

 

[Al68]

if you're going to consider the possibility that he's alive, then you must also consider the alive-but-in-custody possibility. that would invalidate your proof.

Yes, I neglected to specify "alive and free" in that last post like I did in my earlier one. That "proof" does not preclude his being alive but secretly in custody.

But keeping that secret would seem prohibitively difficult under these circumstances, IMO.

 

[rhody]

All I have to say to these pictures is... Wow... see attachments and this http://www.theatlantic.com/technolo...tary-dog-jumping-out-of-a-helicopter/238431/". I don't get choked up easily, however, this did it for me...

Rhody...

 

[fuzzyfelt]

Wow. They must be so well trained, they look so trusting.

 

[turbo]

BTW, folks, al-Qaida has confirmed bin Laden's death. I think we can put an end to speculation that he is being detained and questioned.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/06/osama-bin-laden-dead-al-qaeda_n_858440.html

 

[WhoWee]

BTW, folks, al-Qaida has confirmed bin Laden's death. I think we can put an end to speculation that he is being detained and questioned.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/06/osama-bin-laden-dead-al-qaeda_n_858440.html

His wife was an eyewitness to his death - there never was a legitimate doubt.

 

[Evo]

Wow. They must be so well trained, they look so trusting.

SEAL dogs.

 

[rhody]

SEAL dogs.

Amen...

Rhody...

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

All I have to say to these pictures is... Wow... see attachments and this http://www.theatlantic.com/technolo...tary-dog-jumping-out-of-a-helicopter/238431/". I don't get choked up easily, however, this did it for me...

Rhody...

coolest dogs EVER!

 

[rhody]

On top of that, the first picture, the SEAL is wearing oxygen, so that was a High Altitude, Low Opening Jump (HALO), and you can't see in the picture but I am almost sure the dog has a special oxygen mask on too, that is amazing.

Rhody...

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

On top of that, the first picture, the SEAL is wearing oxygen, so that was a High Altitude, Low Opening Jump (HALO), and you can't see in the picture but I am almost sure the dog has a special oxygen mask on too, that is amazing.

Rhody...

I read an article that said that jump was at 30,000ft!

 

[rootX]

His wife was an eyewitness to his death - there never was a legitimate doubt.

While such details don't matter any more but his wife was unconscious so it was his daughter.


My favorite dog picture!
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/05/04/war_dog?page=0,9
:!)

 

[Lacy33]

All I have to say to these pictures is... Wow... see attachments and this http://www.theatlantic.com/technolo...tary-dog-jumping-out-of-a-helicopter/238431/". I don't get choked up easily, however, this did it for me...

Rhody...

Do NOT try this with cats!

 

[1MileCrash]

Anyone else just not care?

 

[rootX]

Anyone else just not care?

My friend observed that people have never been so fascinated by someone's death since the Harry Potter antagonist death .

 

[rhody]

Do NOT try this with cats!

Lacy,

If the HALO SEAL had managed to stow a cat where the dog was, he would need his bullet proof vest to keep his chest from being torn to shreds !

Rhody...

 

[Evo]

Navy SEAL dog.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Navy SEAL dog.

What do you call SEALs decorated with colored lights? Christmas SEALS.

 

[rhody]

What do you call SEALs decorated with colored lights? Christmas SEALS.

Great, going from being choked up to laughter, quite a range of emotions, and... this could only happen here on PF with this crowd.

Rhody...

 

[camp3r101]

My friend observed that people have never been so fascinated by someone's death since the Harry Potter antagonist death .

It's not that people are fascinated with his demise...it's that people are glad that this man who insighted tyranny through terror is finally gone from this world. After all the atrocities he committed his right to life was void.
He got what was coming to him.

 

[OmCheeto]

Argh! Someone tattled...

Mr Panetta also told the network that the US Navy Seals made the final decision to kill bin Laden rather than the president.

Mr Panetta also told the network that the US Navy Seals, rather than Mr Obama, made the final decision to kill bin Laden.

I was really worried when the president went to visit the Seals today, after reading yesterdays version.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/al-qaeda/8493391/Osama-bin-Laden-dead-Blackout-during-raid-on-bin-Laden-compound.html"

 

[russ_watters]

Apparently he was still very much in charge: http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2011-05-06-bin-laden-al-qaeda_n.htm

 

[Lacy33]

Lacy,

If the HALO SEAL had managed to stow a cat where the dog was, he would need his bullet proof vest to keep his chest from being torn to shreds !

Rhody...

After adopting a huge rescue cat with major issues this last week. And having to dress my wounds after feeding and brushing this darling of a kitty, I would say just lower this particular cat into the compound and call it a done deal.
He came to us with the name Cookie. He is being renamed SWAT.

 

[Lacy33]

Apparently he was still very much in charge: http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2011-05-06-bin-laden-al-qaeda_n.htm

That is sickening isn't it. I like to talk a big talk but really can't hit anyone even in my dreams I can't mannage to make contact.
But I think it is time to take them all out if possible. I'm tired of the threats and the bully's.
We CAN get along. It IS possible.

 

[rootX]

Apparently he was still very much in charge: http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2011-05-06-bin-laden-al-qaeda_n.htm

It's bit vague. He was still very much in charge of "what groups"? How many groups are there and how many affiliate and work under the direction of Al Qaeda? How many work independently and how many have some kind of central authority? What kind of directions Osama was providing to them?

In addition, why "the officials spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss sensitive material."?

Earlier, I have been reading that Al Qaeda does not depend on centralized model under one leader.