News Osama Bin Laden killed by US in Pakistan

[Newai]

One would hope that the majority of people ought to behave with a bit more dignity than a terrorist, don't you think?

Ever read YouTube comments?

 

[WhoWee]

Well, the murderers of those 3,000 people were killed in the process of the act.


One would hope that the majority of people ought to behave with a bit more dignity than a terrorist, don't you think?

Do you really want to make that comparison? (my bold)

http://www.usnews.com/news/religion...why-did-so-many-muslims-seem-to-celebrate-911

""The face of terror," President Bush confidently announced, "is not the true faith of Islam."


But if all that were true, why did so many inhabitants of the long Muslim "street," stretching from Morocco to Indonesia, appear to be overjoyed by what Osama bin Laden's henchmen had accomplished? For that matter, why were certain Islamic jurists in Pakistan issuing fatwas directing Muslims to fight American infidels if they attacked Afghanistan? And why do firebrand clerics throughout the Islamic world continue to issue equally inflammatory decrees? Most disturbing, some of those same voices of moderation had occasionally expressed their approval of Islamic groups such as Hamas and Hezbollah that engage in terrorism.

In the years since 9/11, scholars and experts have done little to resolve the contradictions. Often, they have merely taken them to a higher level. On one side, broadly speaking, are those sympathetic to the views of Princeton historian Bernard Lewis. The British-born scholar and author sees the events of 9/11 as the tragic consequence of a long conflict between the Islamic world and the West, a conflict largely dominated by the former until a little over 300 years ago, when the Ottomans failed in their second attempt to take Vienna. Crediting bin Laden with a strong (if not altogether accurate) sense of history, Lewis argues that the al Qaeda leader gave expression to the "resentment and rage" of people throughout the Islamic world."

 

[rootX]

In the years since 9/11, scholars and experts have done little to resolve the contradictions. Often, they have merely taken them to a higher level.

You seem to be claiming us, crackpots or at least average/none knowledge people, can do better than those scholars and experts?
(I might have understood those lines incorrectly)

Edit: I noticed this was from the article. But I as soon I noticed it, I didn't bother to read rest of the article. I also don't see anything impressive about the author (Jay Tolson: http://www.loyno.edu/wpc/jay-tolson )

Well, the murderers of those 3,000 people were killed in the process of the act.
One would hope that the majority of people ought to behave with a bit more dignity than a terrorist, don't you think?

Personally, I did not celebrate his death. What I felt happy about was bit of raise in my hope that this madness can come to an end. My # 2 post: "I hope this will weaken the terrorist operations in Afghanistan and Pakistan".

 

[bobze]

One thing in there I disagree with, though: "He was trusting the fate of his presidency to luck." Well not really. Having SEALs on our side does wonders to tilt "luck" our way .

Indeed. +1

 

[Opus_723]

But if all that were true, why did so many inhabitants of the long Muslim "street," stretching from Morocco to Indonesia, appear to be overjoyed by what Osama bin Laden's henchmen had accomplished? For that matter, why were certain Islamic jurists in Pakistan issuing fatwas directing Muslims to fight American infidels if they attacked Afghanistan? And why do firebrand clerics throughout the Islamic world continue to issue equally inflammatory decrees? Most disturbing, some of those same voices of moderation had occasionally expressed their approval of Islamic groups such as Hamas and Hezbollah that engage in terrorism.

I think there's a big difference between Islam as a whole and the fundamentalist Muslims that seem to hold positions of power. Just like our most vocal right-wing politicians don't reflect the majority of Christians.

Islam is a broad, diffuse religion. Just because a significant number of people cheered for 9/11 doesn't mean Muslims as a whole supported it. Even if a dominating institution like the Catholic Church supports something, no one claims that they speak for all Christians.

In fact, I will point to the next paragraph of the article you quoted:

Strongly rejecting this reading of the problem are the experts associated with the late Columbia literature Prof. Edward Said, author of the influential book Orientalism. The Palestinian-American scholar charged that Lewis is one of those western "orientalists" whose oversimplification of eastern civilizations has helped to justify European imperalism. Said insisted that Islam is no "monolithic whole" but a divided body of competing "interpretations." It should be treated the same way Christianity and Judaism are, Said urged, "as vast complexities that are neither all-inclusive nor completely deterministic in how they affect their adherents." On such disagreements turns an even larger question: Was September 11 the outgrowth of a "clash of civilizations," in the words of Harvard political scientist Samuel Huntington? Or was it the product of a struggle within a civilization?

 

[DaveC426913]

I think there's a big difference between Islam as a whole and the fundamentalist Muslims that seem to hold positions of power. Just like our most vocal right-wing politicians don't reflect the majority of Christians.

Islam is a broad, diffuse religion. Just because a significant number of people cheered for 9/11 doesn't mean Muslims as a whole supported it. Even if a dominating institution like the Catholic Church supports something, no one claims that they speak for all Christians.

Well said. I would have thought it would go without saying, but it seems WhoWee didn't think that some don't speak for all.

 

[Ryumast3r]

[PLAIN]http://chzmemebase.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/memes-untitled2.jpg[/QUOTE]

Win.

I agree, the trail that led to OBL's killing started during the Bush administration.

But - to shamelessly steal a pic from Char - this is a huge win for Obama:

[PLAIN]http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn115/meanerthanu/obama.png[/QUOTE]

Epic win.

Celebrating the death of anyone, terrorist leader or not, is digusting IMHO and I feel physically sick reading the news and comments today.

The hypocracy is stupifying.

... How to respond to this without knifing a kitten... Celebrating the death of a mass-murderer is not necessarily celebrating the death of a person, it is celebrating the end of the mass-murders that the mass-murderer caused. It is celebrating the end of the pain and suffering that the person who happened to die represented and caused, either directly, or indirectly (osama was a bit of both... he personally killed people, and he orchestrated deaths as well, though mostly the latter). If you are sick by people celebrating justice, and an end to suffering, then you disgust me, and make ME sick.

 

[Al68]

Now that's a pretty good excuse! I'll buy that.

 

[Ryumast3r]

Just to add a quick bit to this, it would've been really brobama of him if he'd done this for his speech:

[PLAIN]http://cdn.raywj.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/tumblr_lkkynzBige1qztrxyo1_400.gif

 

[Dr Lots-o'watts]

So now that the job is done, I suppose everybody will coming back home now from Afghanistan.

...

(now what's the official reason these days?)

 

[qspeechc]

Regardless of whether Osama fought back or not, the more I think about it, the less likely it seems to me the USA would want to give him a trial.

Where would this trial be held? Probably the Hague. The case will likely take a very long time (lawyers are very skilled in stretching out court cases). Osama could easily die a natural death before the end of the case.

There would definitely be terrorist attacks against the Netherlands because of this case, can you imagine the security that would be needed? Literally an army would be needed, and for over many years. Would the Netherlands want to hold this case with the threat of terrorist attacks? Would any country in the world?
The lawyers on the prosecution would get death threats, who would want to take the case?

And then there is the possibility of Osama getting off on a technicality. While the case was going on Osama would be living a relatively comfortable life, rather more comfortable than hiding in a cave.

After several years in court and no result, the American people, and people around the world would become very angry indeed. And if Osama died a natural death while the case was on-going, or got off, or they could only pin him for a few things, can you image how angry people around the world would be?

In the end, it doesn't seem likely to me that the USA wanted to give him a fair trial. They probably wanted him to put up a fight so they could kill him.

 

[Borg]

It will be interesting to see what happens to Obama's poll numbers today.
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/obama_administration/daily_presidential_tracking_poll"

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

The same guy that forges fake passports also forges fake birth certificates. During a recent conversation with President Obama, he mentioned that it would be more difficult to trace his tracks if Bin Laden's death could be faked.

 

[tiny-tim]

And I'm not sure... what's the significance of the number 79?

It's the number of Star Trek episodes (and also the smallest number that can't be represented as a sum of fewer than 19 fourth powers).

But perhaps the most important thing about 79 is, according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/79_(number)" …

Seventy-nine is the natural number following 78 and preceding 80.^{[citation needed]}​

… citation needed!

 

[russ_watters]

Wiki says that a "round number is mathematically defined as the product of a considerable number of comparatively small factors."

I get it. Sounds just like bin laden.

Sorry, I should have said even number. Two helicopters with a capacity of 40 passengers each and one had 39 people in it. That leaves an open seat on the flight out.

Regardless, after thinking about it more, I'm not sure it implies anything we don't already know, so not a big issue.

 

[Amp1]

Maybe that seat was for the dog?!?, I read this whole thread and noticed what appears to be quite a few kids here. As variably mature grownups, let's be careful to keep the guidelines in mind.

I think most people partisan or not are content with the news of Osamas' passing. Considering I still see sometimes the surrealism when I dream, I'm happy US got him. I hope however that our gov dosen't stop with him but goes after everyone or anyone that helped carry out the 9/11 attack.

 

[russ_watters]

Maybe that seat was for the dog?!?

Well the flight back was planned to carry 80 though that number is clearly not a hard limit. They had to carry the other helicopter crew too.

 

[OmCheeto]

...

Seventy-nine is the natural number following 78 and preceding 80.^{[citation needed]}​

… citation needed!

I'll second that.

But did you see this: 79: The record cumulative weeks at #1 on the Billboard charts, held by Elvis Presley

I've heard from very reliable sources on Facebook that Osama was spotted with Elvis in Vegas just yesterday. Coincidence?

 

[tiny-tim]

Address unknown!

 

[Char. Limit]

It will be interesting to see what happens to Obama's poll numbers today.
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/obama_administration/daily_presidential_tracking_poll"

I note that this says that two thirds of the interviews were conducted BEFORE Osama's reporting of death. So I'll just wait for the next one. But that aside, I checked Bush's approval ratings in 2004, and I noticed that he won an election despite having a less than 50% approval rating. So I'm not even sure I can trust these polls in general.

Not to mention, the entire Republican party strongly disapproves of Obama.

 

[WhoWee]

I note that this says that two thirds of the interviews were conducted BEFORE Osama's reporting of death. So I'll just wait for the next one. But that aside, I checked Bush's approval ratings in 2004, and I noticed that he won an election despite having a less than 50% approval rating. So I'm not even sure I can trust these polls in general.

Not to mention, the entire Republican party strongly disapproves of Obama.

IMO - he did a good job on this. Likewise, I think most Republicans and Independents have acknowledged President Obama on his leadership in this event. He made a strong decision - to use the SEALs (rather than a large bomb) and not to involve the Pakistani forces. This surgical strike has enabled positive identification of the terrorist and resulted in the gathering of data. On the other hand, Republicans don't seem to appreciate comments that ground work/frame work put in place by Bush deserve no credit.

President Obama should experience a short term increase in polls. The long term results will depend upon his leadership in other areas.

 

[russ_watters]

Foxnews is reporting that three options were weighed:

1. The SEAL mission
2. A standard bombing mission
3. Unknown. Speculated to be a Predator attack.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/05/02/obama-plays-key-role-decision-process-bin-laden/

This is interesting because only the SEAL mission carries with it the possibility of bringing Bin Laden back - dead or alive. Some thoughts:

1. It says they were worried about #1 becasuse of the military and ex-military in the area possibly hearing/seeing the helicopters and alerting Bin Laden. That mission also carries the most risk for personnel.

2. It says Obama was worried about collateral damage for #2. I say: with such a high value target in such a large compound, screw collateral damage. The only people inside the compound would have close ties to Bin Laden anyway and there would be little risk of collateral damage outside the compound. Perhaps also, Pakistan might have objected more strongly to an American 2,000 lb bomb going of 30 miles from Islamabad, but screw them too.

3. Predator attack? Much too small to have a substantial chance of success. I was thinking about other possibilities and my guess would have been lone sniper. Odds of success are lower than for the others, but still pretty good.

 

[Char. Limit]

Foxnews is reporting that three options were weighed:

1. The SEAL mission
2. A standard bombing mission
3. Unknown. Speculated to ge a Predator attack.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/05/02/obama-plays-key-role-decision-process-bin-laden/

This is interesting because only the SEAL mission carries with it the possibility of bringing Bin Laden back - dead or alive. Some thoughts:

1. It says they were worried about #1 becasuse of the military and ex-military in the area possibly hearing/seeing the helicopters and alerting Bin Laden. That mission also carries the most risk for personnel.

2. It says Obama was worried about collateral damage for #2. I say: with such a high value target in such a large compound, screw collateral damage. The only people inside the compound would have close ties to Bin Laden anyway and there would be little risk of collateral damage outside the compound. Perhaps also, Pakistan might have objected more strongly to an American 2,000 lb bomb going of 30 miles from Islamabad, but screw them too.

3. Predator attack? Much too small to have a substantial chance of success. I was thinking about other possibilities and my guess would have been lone sniper. Odds of success are lower than for the others, but still pretty good.

Leave it to FOX to complain about how we got Bin Laden...

 

[Borg]

I note that this says that two thirds of the interviews were conducted BEFORE Osama's reporting of death. So I'll just wait for the next one. But that aside, I checked Bush's approval ratings in 2004, and I noticed that he won an election despite having a less than 50% approval rating. So I'm not even sure I can trust these polls in general.

Not to mention, the entire Republican party strongly disapproves of Obama.

I didn't read the part about the polls. Guess I'll have to wait til Thursday. I agree that polls often don't mean much. They are too often slanted to give the desired results IMO.

 

[russ_watters]

Leave it to FOX to complain about how we got Bin Laden...

I am not seeing a complaint anywhere in there. Could you quote the complaint please?

 

[CAC1001]

Foxnews is reporting that three options were weighed:

1. The SEAL mission
2. A standard bombing mission
3. Unknown. Speculated to ge a Predator attack.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/05/02/obama-plays-key-role-decision-process-bin-laden/

This is interesting because only the SEAL mission carries with it the possibility of bringing Bin Laden back - dead or alive. Some thoughts:

1. It says they were worried about #1 becasuse of the military and ex-military in the area possibly hearing/seeing the helicopters and alerting Bin Laden. That mission also carries the most risk for personnel.

On O'Reilly last night, Colonel Ralph Peters said that helicopters fly over that city all the time to the army base nearby, so to the people living in the compound, hearing helicopters approaching probably wouldn't have been anything out of the ordinary. The General who was also on, said that the mission would have been timed to coincide with when it is normal to hear helicopters flying over the area. He also said that those helicopters have a special muffler system that helps to make them more quiet than standard helicopters as well.

 

[Char. Limit]

Im not seeing a complaint anywhere in there. Could you quote the complaint please?

Never mind, I misread it. Too eager to cast a bad light on FOX, I guess.

 

[drankin]

Another problem with a bombing of the compound would be finding a body and identifying it via coordination with the local government. A very messy option. It was done the best way it could have been done IMO.

 

[turbo]

Another problem with a bombing of the compound would be finding a body and identifying it via coordination with the local government. A very messy option. It was done the best way it could have been done IMO.

Agreed. It also avoided collateral damage (needless death and destruction in the neighborhood), and allowed for the preservation and collection of additional evidence that might lead to the apprehension of more of OBL's close associates. Dropping a 2000# bomb on the compound would not have been too smart.

 

[jreelawg]

It was really stupid to dispose of the body the way they did. A lot of people are going to be skeptical it really happened. All we have left now to prove we got him, is the prospect of a photograph being released. And in my opinion they really ought to release the photography.

So far I have heard- That they wanted to dump the body in the Sea to give Osama a dignified muslim burial while preventing a shrine from forming. Are you serious?! And now they are hesitant to release pictures because, "it might put future or current operations at risk?

Hopefully they have better reasons than these IMO. I heard Anderson Cooper say these type of special forces operations are kept secretive often putting out cover stories, and only years later what really happened comes out.

Maybe they really roasted him with some kind of classified energy weapon or something.

Oh well hopefully they get out the pictures soon.

 

[Char. Limit]

I don't think it really matters if they release the photography. If they do, believers will continue to believe and disbelievers will say it's photoshopped or something.

 

[WhoWee]

IMO - Harry "the War is Lost" Reid has a lot of nerve to give a speech about this success.


http://www.cnn.com/video/?/video/politics/2011/05/02/bts.reid.senate.obl.remarks.cnn

 

[Newai]

IMO - Harry "the War is Lost" Reid has a lot of nerve to give a speech about this success.

Why? I had the same feelings, that almost a decade without OBL's head and no light at the end of the tunnel, that the fight against terror was going nowhere.

 

[WhoWee]

Why? I had the same feelings, that almost a decade without OBL's head and no light at the end of the tunnel, that the fight against terror was going nowhere.

Are you the leader of the US Senate - someone the troops deem important - someone the enemy might parrot to build resistance? If you were - would you have expressed your thoughts on the floor of the Senate? On the other hand, he recently inferred his wife might lose her healthcare benefits if Planned Parenthood lost funding.

 

[Pengwuino]

I don't think it really matters if they release the photography. If they do, believers will continue to believe and disbelievers will say it's photoshopped or something.

Bin Laden is hiding in a base on the Moon.

Which America has never been to.

It's run by JFK.

 

[JaredJames]

Bin Laden is hiding in a base on the Moon.

Which America has never been to.

It's run by JFK.

I just got a picture in my head of Michael Jackson 'doing the walk' with an AK47 on guard duty.

 

[Pengwuino]

I just got a picture in my head of Michael Jackson 'doing the walk' with an AK47 on guard duty.

I wouldn't want to be in your head

 

[jreelawg]

Bin Laden is hiding in a base on the Moon.

Which America has never been to.

It's run by JFK.

Everybody knows that Elvis is in charge of the moon base. Get your facts strait.

 

[JaredJames]

I wouldn't want to be in your head

I don't most of the time...

 

[jreelawg]

Bin Laden is hiding in a base on the Moon.

Which America has never been to.

It's run by JFK.

Everybody knows that Elvis is in charge of the moon base. Get your facts strait.

And we all know that Obama is the real Osama.

 

[AlephZero]

Dropping a 2000# bomb on the compound would not have been too smart.

But if they had missed the compound and wiped out the nearby military academy instead, they could always have claimed it was an attack by Al Quaeda.

My suspicion is that the US has been wasting its time chasing an irrelevance for the last few years. Why? Count the number of protest demonstrations sweeping across the Islamic world. There was a statement from Hamas ... and that's about it.

What does everybody apart from Hamas know, that the USA doesn't? Possibly, who is REALLY running Islamic terrorism right now?

 

[rootX]

But if they had missed the compound and wiped out the nearby military academy instead, they could always have claimed it was an attack by Al Quaeda.

Pakistan is quite weak nation. US carried out a ground operation in a sovereign country without informing it and best response Pakistan came up with was it is ashamed that it was unaware of Osama's location.

What does everybody apart from Hamas know, that the USA doesn't? Possibly, who is REALLY running Islamic terrorism right now?

There is no centralized agency behind the terrorism.

 

[jreelawg]

I have to say, I'm not very impressed in the quality of the operation. If they truly did meet no armed resistance, and Bin Laden was unarmed and in bed when they killed him, why didn't they get him alive? Surely he would be worth more alive than dead right. I wonder what instructions they received? Who's orders/instruction, or lack of, lead to such a mistake?

 

[DaveC426913]

If they truly did meet no armed resistance, and Bin Laden was unarmed and in bed when they killed him

Wait, did I miss this?

 

[edward]

I have to say, I'm not very impressed in the quality of the operation. If they truly did meet no armed resistance, and Bin Laden was unarmed and in bed when they killed him, why didn't they get him alive? Surely he would be worth more alive than dead right. I wonder what instructions they received? Who's orders/instruction, or lack of, lead to such a mistake?

Except for the loss of a helicopter the operation went off exactly as planned. The Navy Seals mission did not include negotiating a surrender.

 

[lisab]

I have to say, I'm not very impressed in the quality of the operation.

Wow, tough crowd!

 

[Lacy33]

I just got a picture in my head of Michael Jackson 'doing the walk' with an AK47 on guard duty.

Michael was a man of PEACE! :!) ... Unless he wasn't in the mood. :shy:

 

[drankin]

I heard on the Dennis Miller show today that there is a new drink now called the Bin Laden Martini.

It's made with two shots and a splash.

*rimshot*

 

[Char. Limit]

But if they had missed the compound and wiped out the nearby military academy instead, they could always have claimed it was an attack by Al Quaeda.

My suspicion is that the US has been wasting its time chasing an irrelevance for the last few years. Why? Count the number of protest demonstrations sweeping across the Islamic world. There was a statement from Hamas ... and that's about it.

What does everybody apart from Hamas know, that the USA doesn't? Possibly, who is REALLY running Islamic terrorism right now?

Well, you could either believe this theory of a puppet-master behind terrorism that the entire Islamic world knows about but we, somehow, don't (you think with a BILLION people belonging to Islam, we might not figure it out?)... or you can believe that maybe, just maybe, most Muslims didn't support Osama bin Laden.

 

[drankin]

Well, you could either believe this theory of a puppet-master behind terrorism that the entire Islamic world knows about but we, somehow, don't (you think with a BILLION people belonging to Islam, we might not figure it out?)... or you can believe that maybe, just maybe, most Muslims didn't support Osama bin Laden.

I don't believe all Muslims support Bin Laden, particularly in the US, but it's not hard to believe that many if not most Muslims outside of our country like the fact that he was responsible for hurting the big bad USA. This is evident to me by the lack of outrage and the celebratory response after 9/11 in the ME.