Planck-Einstein: how does it separate classical from Quantum?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the conceptual separation between classical and quantum physics, particularly in relation to the contributions of Planck, Einstein, and Bohr. It explores the transition from classical to quantum behavior and the implications of modern quantum theory.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that while everything is assumed to obey quantum laws, the effects of quantum mechanics become less noticeable at larger scales, leading to classical behavior without a clear dividing line.
  • One participant critiques the "old quantum theory" as being inconsistent and reliant on esoteric concepts like wave-particle duality, arguing that modern quantum theory provides a more rigorous framework.
  • It is proposed that classical physics can be viewed as an emergent phenomenon that arises from quantum theory through appropriate coarse-graining of macroscopic degrees of freedom.
  • Another participant highlights the mathematical developments in quantum theory, noting the contributions of various mathematicians to the rigorous formulation of Dirac's transformation theory.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of the transition from classical to quantum physics, with some emphasizing the lack of a sharp boundary and others focusing on the inconsistencies in earlier theories. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the implications of these perspectives.

Contextual Notes

The discussion reflects limitations in the assumptions made about the nature of quantum effects and the definitions of classical versus quantum behavior. There are unresolved mathematical steps in the transition from classical to quantum descriptions.

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Theory wise.
 
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It's assumed everything obeys quantum laws. As scale goes up, quantum effects are less noticeable. Things begin to behave more classically. There is no sharp dividing line, however.
 
Planck's and Einstein's (and also Bohr's) "old quantum theory" is dissatisfactory, because it consists of a lot if intrinsically inconsistent ad-hoc assumptions with quite strange (if not esoteric) notions like wave-particle duality. Thus very soon, in 1925/26, modern non-relativistic quantum theory has been discovered already in three equivalent versions (Heisenberg+Born+Jordan+Pauli: "matrix mechanics", Schrödinger ("wave mechanics"), Dirac ("transformation theory")) and brought to a rigorous mathematical form in terms of Hilbert-space theory by von Neumann.

In modern quantum theory the classical physics occurs as an emergent phenomenon derivable from quantum theory by appropriate coarse-graining to effectively describe the relevant macroscopic degrees of freedom.
 
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vanhees71 said:
brought to a rigorous mathematical form in terms of Hilbert-space theory by von Neumann.

And later Dirac's transformation theory was bought into rigorous mathematical form thanks to some of the greatest mathematicians of the later part of the 20th century - Gelfland, Grothendieck and Schwartz.

Often mathematicians preempt the mathematics physicists and other applied mathematicians need, but here it was reversed and led to some very beautiful, deep and highly applicable math.

Thanks
Bill
 
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