President of the US: Fix the Education System

[Pengwuino]

Ok let's have a little fun here. You are the President of the United States. Fix the education system. No complaining, just solutions. Be specific, this is not a beauty contest where "fund education" is enough to win. Tell us how you would implement the plan, what laws you would pass, etc etc. Let's see what the people have to say!

So let's hear it!

This is the first in the Pengwuino's "No complaints, lots of solutions" series of threads.*

*This name is subject to change without notice as cooler names are decided. Do not make financial decisions without consulting a professional accountant. The market fluctuates and there is significant risk involved. Please consult your broker before investing.[/size]

 

[Moonbear]

Okay, I don't have all the solutions, but I have a place where I'd like to start. I'd like to encourage people with subject-specific PhDs to teach in high schools. There are plenty of people who love to teach, and would do this, but don't because of 1) the pain-in-the-butt rules for getting certified, many of which could and should be waived for someone with a PhD and university teaching experience; let that serve as your student-teaching requirement, and 2) the low salary potential. So, we're going to make it easier for someone with a PhD (not in education, but in a specific subject) to get a teaching certification to teach that subject, and we'll reward them with a better salary for bringing in their expertise to the public school classroom.

Second, anyone teaching at the high school level should be required to have a major in the subject that they are teaching. I'm tired of schools assigning people with education degrees and one non-major biology course to teach biology, so that's something to change. Let the education majors handle the elementary students. If you're going to teach a subject in high school, you need to know it well yourself.

Basically, this is all about incentives to get some of our brighter members of society into the classroom to teach our youth; there aren't enough of them currently. Teaching used to be viewed as a respectable profession, and we should restore it to that status. We can even set up a government-funded scholarship program similar to the ones set up for paying for med school for people willing to commit 6 years to working in underpriviledged communities, or areas where there is a physician shortage. Likewise, we could have a program where competitive students who are willing to teach in schools where there are shortages of qualified teachers can get a full scholarship through college if they commit to a minimum number of years (5 or 6) teaching in one of those schools. Their assignment would be based on need, so they could be assigned to failing schools, or rural communities, or overcrowded inner city schools to help raise the educational levels in those areas.

 

[Cyrus]

I would stop giving all the money to the sports departments of schools, and give it to the, oh I don't know, education departments that need it. (Arts, Music, History). Sports are great, but you are in school to learn.

EDIT: Oh yes, I almost forgot, make foreign language a requirement. Kids in 3rd world africa who go to school can speak english, french, and their tribal language. We should be able to also. (My friend speaks 5 languages fluently, he's from Tunisa,...I hate him).

 

[Pengwuino]

Second, anyone teaching at the high school level should be required to have a major in the subject that they are teaching. I'm tired of schools assigning people with education degrees and one non-major biology course to teach biology, so that's something to change. Let the education majors handle the elementary students. If you're going to teach a subject in high school, you need to know it well yourself.

I didn't even want to add anything to this thread but I just had to add this one thing. What a coincadence... i was talking to a friend and she is still in high school right? She's in a honors Economics course. Her teacher... her TEACHER... HER ECONOMICS TEACHER...has no idea what a mutual fund is or what a cd (certificate of deposit) is! Another irony is that i was just helping out a friend who was doing a paper on how high school doesn't prepare you for college.

 

[bomba923]

No complaining, just solutions. Be specific, this is not a beauty contest where "fund education" is enough to win. Tell us how you would implement the plan, what laws you would pass, etc etc ...

**Here's my solution:

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=104494

In regards to the NCLB (as described on Wikipedia), it appears to be quite a good initiative and something we all need: a federal evaluator of the quality of public education that is not affiliated with AFT and NEA unions. NCLB assesses the very schools themselves---not just the districts/states that contain them.Also, it promotes parental choice=>well, of course, in choosing a school for their children.
---------/
IIRC, public education (along with its quality) is (legally) a state's responsibility. As the NCLB is a federal act , I wouldn't demand much more than an evaluation of schools' academic quality and--generally...as a result--the subsequent financial actions upon the school or the district, usually in the form of federal aid or pressure, depending on how that school or district performs.

***Then...what is the problem??***
The problem (why public education is so crappy), from my perspective, is at the state and/or school district level. In short, the problem...primarily...is grade inflation.
As this is a "No complaint / only solution"-type thread ---->Here is my solution

You see , quoting my giant OP may not do Pengwuino's thread here any good.

 

[vanesch]

Second, anyone teaching at the high school level should be required to have a major in the subject that they are teaching.

You mean that that isn't the case ?

 

[bomba923]

Sorry~~>I couldn't resist! :shy:
(Moderators feel free delete this post if you find it redundant. Keep it here please otherwise---it's nice and relevant in this thread , and a better discussion can ensue in this thread~)

Anyway, the my solution is reproduced below:
^^

Here's my solution towards increasing quality of public education:

*After each grade from 8-12, students will take a state exam on English, math, history...well, whatever basic subjects the state wants covered by those grades

*(For teachers) A teacher's income will depend on how closely do the grades they assign match their students' performance on the exam.

-For example, an algebra teacher assigns a student an "F", but that students scores an "A" on the state exam's algebra section (for his/her particular grade, of course). That teacher's income is lowered, similarly if they assigned an "A" to a student who failed the exam's algebra section.

-However, this is nothing serious . Just one or two misgraded student(s)?--Will not impact the teacher's income. Nothing to worry about. But...()..if the teacher misgrades proportions upon large proportions of students, then his/her salary will be impacted indeed.

-Yes, a statistical approach evaluating every student's teacher<->exam grades will be used. Not just mere "samples". Every student...quantitatively considered. (thanks to computers )
---------------------------------
More conditions:

*If a teacher assigns an "A" to a student, but the student fails the particular section of the exam, they will not be admitted to the next level course.
-An example: An algebra teacher assigns a "B" to a student who fails the exam's algrebra section, but passes well in English and history. The student will be held back a semester/year in math...but will nevertheless move on towards the next level English & history courses.
*Of course, the whatever "credit/course" requirements for that high school...will probably have to met anyway for graduation
---------------------------
In effect:

-Teachers will actually have to grade more directly on students' competence, skills, understanding, and ability.
-You won't have students in trigonometry class, for example, who cannot multiply fractions.
-Poorly performing teachers will receive a smaller income, opening up the income "pool" for more outstanding or competent teachers.
-Teachers who teach fewer students will be encouraged to concentrate and pay more attention to each of those indivduals students...because grades for ten/twenty students will matter more than for a teacher who teaches many more students!
----------------------------
*Problems addressed:

1) What if a teacher doesn't teach well and just gives every one a 'D' or 'F' ?

-There are already quotas for the distribution of A/B's & C/D's and F's a teacher can assign without risking a loss in income...or an "investigation" for that matter . My "teacher<->exam grade" method will not interfere with those quotas...unless it has to (?). I will expand on this, of course.

2) What if a teacher receives many students who are ill-prepared/have problems/incompetent/etc...?

-That is currently a problem faced today! (i.e., without my method). However, my method does help alleviate some major tension----e.g., you don't pass the algebra section, you don't move on to trigonomentry class. That teacher will not have to put up with you. Same with other subjects when passing into the next level.

-Also, the ineptitude/incompetence of students has NO effect on the teacher's income from my method. The teacher is merely required to "fairly evaluate" students, even if it thus means giving an "F". Remember, the income here depends not on the "actual grade assigned" but rather on how closely whatever "grade gets assigned" matches the grade received on the state exam...be it an A,B,C,D or F or whatever. Remember (however) to reread Question #1 after reading this part .

-A trigonometry teacher is not responsible...or at least "supposed to be" ...for a student who cannot multiply fractions. But the teacher will have to put up with him/her anyway if they passed their last semester's/year's algebra course! In a way, the algebra teacher deserves some blame. But any-way, if the student fails the algebra section, then they will not advance into school courses beyond algebra regardless of what their teacher may have assigned to them.

-Similarly, if an algebra teacher assigns an "F" to a student who well passes the algebra section, then...well, screw the teacher. The student will advance to next level math!

-You see, those exams are somewhat of a "filter"...if you wish to call it thus.

3) What if a student cuts class and doesn't take the teacher's tests/assignments? How can the teacher assess them without risking loss of income?

Simple. Write a note to the district explaining (with good reason) why that particular individual(s) cannot be fairly assessed. That's all (and the student's exam score will not be held for or against the teacher).

4) Well...what if the test is too easy/hard? What if the teacher wants to do more than just prepare students for a "test" ?

-Excuse me? "Wishful thinking" is not a question. Public education has extremely low standards and does not perform to even an "adequate" level. Across many neighborhoods, public education severely underperforms. How can we talk about "academic edification beyond standards" when we HAVE NOT EVEN MET THEM? Discuss this here, at a General Discussion thread called, "To Americans: Opinions on our schools " (Poll included).

-Sure, once we have achieved and perform to good standards...we can scrap this whole "teacher<->exam" grade idea and move on! But not when our public education is the way it is now (and has been for more than two decades). This deserves more of a "" expression...

5) Your examples talk about A's & F's. But what about B/C/D's ??

-There are shades of gray indeed. Surely a teacher<->exam grade disparity of "A" to "F" will definitely affect the teacher's income more than would a "B"<->"C" disparity or an "C"<->"A" disparity.
-Again, I will re-emphasize that one/two mis-graded individuals will NOT impact a teacher's salary. Only proportions upon large proportions will severely impact a teacher's salary. This may or may not depend on the quantity of students a teacher teaches . Anyhow, a single/double "A"<->"C" disparity will not affect much. Nor might more than few "A"<->"B" disparities affect anything (those might be rather minor). On the other hand, several "A"<->"D"/"A"<->"C" or "B"<->"D/F" disparities WILL (without doubt) affect salary. And several "A"<->"F" disparities? Not good at all.

*In other words, the effect on income depends what proportions (or raw quantity, if some might prefer) of that teacher's students are affected by what sizes of disparities.

-And yes...every student (thanks to computers!), NOT just mere "samples" from the teacher will be quantitatively considered.

6) Ok..let's say the teacher expects an average "B" grade for the class. What prevents the teacher from randomly assigning "B-C-B-C-A-C-B-B-A-C..etc" to his/her students regardless of their performance?

The teacher's salary will. You see, a non-lazy teacher will aim for "no disparity AT ALL!" (approach) rather than randomly minimizing it and assign grades randomly about the expected mean performance. The teacher who takes the time to carefully evaluate each student (as they're supposed to) will without doubt earn much more than a teacher who randomly dishes out grades.
(**Unless a teacher can just "LOOK" at a student and immediately give out the accurate grade ...but no one is really that "psychic" )

Needless to say, especially holds true if the class is expected to have a large standard deviation between students' competence, abilities, and performance. But you understand my point here nonetheless.

-For further contentions against Question #6, remember that students can usually bring parents and argue their grades with teachers, based on what the teacher "told" them regarding how the students "will be graded". -Also remember that no serious checks for "random assignment of grades" exist today. Feel free to start another thread on this particular but ridiculously minor issue...which I have needlessly expanded on in my pedantic-ism.

And finally...question #7:
7) Do you realize that you might become the archenemy of the teachers' union for proposing this?

(Yes. Indeed I do . But I don't really care here )
-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-
*Anyhow, seriously...

What are your thoughts? Ideas? Insight? What do you guys think about my teacher<->exam this approach/method/idea ??

 

[Pengwuino]

You mean that that isn't the case ?

I believe what you do is get a "teaching credential" which i THINK is like... half way between minoring in something and majoring in something as far as how much work you have to do. Then you do like a "specialization" where you do a little less then a minor in a certain subject so you are allowed to teach that subject or something. But that is just what I've gathered based on bits and pieces. I KNOW you don't have to have a bachelors in the field you teach... but I'm not exactly sure what you do have to have.

 

[vanesch]

In that same thread, I talked about a variant of the method proposed by bomba923, because I think his method has one weakness, which is the difference in ability and prerequisites. This is partly addressed by requiring each student to come in with an "A" level in the required prerequisites, but there is still a lot of wiggle room in A: If you are good buddies with the Principal, he can give you all the A+++ students, and if not, you have to deal with a lot of A-. So it wouldn't be fair.

I think the best measure is not so much the absolute exit level, but the IMPROVEMENT in level in the course. So if the teacher brings most of his A- up to A+, that's to me a better teacher than the one who gets in all A+++ and brings them out A++.
Also, if you're in a school in a relatively rich and cultivated environment, chances are that kids will, on average, perform better, while if you're in a poor neighbourhood, it takes much more effort to increase the level of your students (who have much less help at home). So this should be factored in too. I think what has to be determining the pay of the teacher, is:
1) his education level (pay more to a PhD than an undergrad)
2) his relative performance, normalized to the public he gets.

There are teachers who do in fact (relatively) MUCH BETTER with poor kids, and there are teachers who do better with high-brow students. Of course, the exit level will be better for the last category, but that's no reason to underevaluate the work of the first kind of teacher.

The invoked danger is of course that now, teachers are bound to work towards performance on the standard evaluation tests, so these tests will determine entirely the programme. The difficulty has now been displaced to the good design of standard tests, who DO test the real, desired abilities of the students. Much care must be spend on this.

 

[bomba923]

In that same thread, I talked about a variant of the method proposed by bomba923, because I think his method has one weakness, which is the difference in ability and prerequisites. This is partly addressed by requiring each student to come in with an "A" level in the required prerequisites, but there is still a lot of wiggle room in A: If you are good buddies with the Principal, he can give you all the A+++ students, and if not, you have to deal with a lot of A-. So it wouldn't be fair.

?? Passing just means C- or higher! I don't require anything close to an "A"!...just higher than a C-, is all.

Secondly, I do not punish teachers for giving "F's" ! Many posters seemed to misunderstand me here. There is no penalty for the teacher at all in assigning F's to students---as long as those students deserve those grades and score poorly on the state exam.

All I require here is just fair assessment from the teachers. It doesn't matter what they assign (even if it is an "F" or an "A")...but how fair the grade assignment is, in light of the students' competence, knowledge, and ability. No teacher is penalized for fairly assigning an "F" or fairly assigning an "A". Only if that "A" or "F" is un-fairly assigned will a teacher's income be affected.

...while if you're in a poor neighbourhood, it takes much more effort to increase the level of your students (who have much less help at home).

And let's not complement those inherent difficulties---with the additional drawback of grade inflation. I expect my program/reform to be especially of great use to poor neighborhoods/districts.

2) his relative performance, normalized to the public he gets.

Normalized to the public he "gets"? NOT a good idea. In your posts, you mentioned that

The problem I noticed is that teachers trying to do their job WELL have not much means of getting themselves promoted for it. They don't do much "fun" things, they are not active in several activities... they simply stick to their job and do it well, and get almost no recognition for it, compared to their collegues who jump around alot, and impress administration and parents with all their projects, activities, trips etc... but who do not teach the kids what they're supposed to learn.

"Normalizing" to the public, as you mentioned, is not always a good idea.

There are teachers who do in fact (relatively) MUCH BETTER with poor kids, and there are teachers who do better with high-brow students. Of course, the exit level will be better for the last category, but that's no reason to underevaluate the work of the first kind of teacher.

Actually, state standards take into account the population of poorly performing schools/students--one of the reasons why standards can often be quite low.

Sure, an AP-level exam may favor brighter students~~>but I'm referring to state standards (which are always normalized to poorer or underperforming schools)! Which all schools should meet, regardless of district/economic rankings.

The invoked danger is of course that now, teachers are bound to work towards performance on the standard evaluation tests, so these tests will determine entirely the programme.

No...schools and districts alike have standards in place for the courses that they offer. These tests merely enforce those standards. In the post that I quoted from you, you mention some of those standards, at least the ideas behind them.

You were correct when you described:

Ah, I thought that there were national (or at least state-wide) curriculum descriptions (stuff that the student needs to know; for instance: at the age of 8, simple reading abilities. Being able to read and comprehend a simple text, followed by lining out what is meant by "a simple text").
Of course, with one imposed curriculum goes one standardized test. And it is the teachers' job to bring these abilities to his students, not to invent a curriculum on his own. What the teacher has to invent is, given the curriculum, and given the students he receives, what methods should he use to best transmit the curriculum he's supposed to transmit.

The difficulty has now been displaced to the good design of standard tests, who DO test the real, desired abilities of the students. Much care must be spend on this.

Without a doubt, this will be emphasized.

 

[vanesch]

?? Passing just means C- or higher! I don't require anything close to an "A"!...just higher than a C-, is all.

Oh, well, it makes the argument worse then. If you have a class full of C-, you'll have a lower average exit level than if you have a class full of A++ to start with.

All I require here is just fair assessment from the teachers. It doesn't matter what they assign (even if it is an "F" or an "A")...but how fair the grade assignment is, in light of the students' competence, knowledge, and ability. No teacher is penalized for fairly assigning an "F" or fairly assigning an "A". Only if that "A" or "F" is un-fairly assigned will a teacher's income be affected.

But you cannot require of a teacher ONLY to grade fairly, can you ?? What you REALLY want of a teacher, is that he increases the abilities of his students as much as possible, during his course, in the course matter, no ? Of course, fair grading is ALSO a requirement, but that, by itself, will not do, will it ? Grading is an important, but only a minor, part of the job of the teacher. His main job is to TEACH, to transmit knowledge, ability, insight... in the course matter. His main job is NOT to evaluate how well you are doing (although he will NEED that information to adapt his teachings, and the student will need the information to know where he's standing). But it's just a tool. The goal is to increase the performance of the students in the course matter. So it is this performance which should be put in relationship to the reward for the teacher.

Compare it to medicine. Imagine a way to reward doctors. Should a doctor be rewarded:
1) wrt to the number of healthy people in his neighbourhood
2) wrt to the accuracy with which he can predict that you are ill
3) wrt his ability to cure you ?

If you are going to couple teacher salary to the average test level, you go for 1). Clearly, it's better to be a doctor in a healthy place then.
If you do your thing, you go for 2)
The doctor I think, should get the best reward, is 3).

And let's not complement those inherent difficulties---with the additional drawback of grade inflation. I expect my program/reform to be especially of great use to poor neighborhoods/districts.

I'm not talking about changing grading ! The tests should be anonymous, mixed, and the same for all of the "area" (with good and bad neighbourhoods) that is supposed to be seeing the same program. I'm only saying that the teacher who can INCREASE most of his student's abilities (not by his own grading, but by the gradings on the standardized tests) should be rewarded. As such, that will require, of him, to adapt his teachings to his public, so that they become as efficient as possible. It is of no use to give a high brow course to average students, who cannot follow. You will not give them a strong increase in performance by doing so. But it is also not very efficient to give an average-level course to high-brow students who could learn more: although they will give a correct performance on the exit test, they already had a bright performance on the entrance test, so you didn't INCREASE much their performance. If you have high-brow students, you should give a peppered-up course, pushing them to the limits (but not beyond) of their abilities. Then they will even excell better on their exit tests.

"Normalizing" to the public, as you mentioned, is not always a good idea.

Not normalizing the grading ! But in order to assess fairly the quality of the teacher (that is, to assess his ability to maximize performance increase), one should not use just the final performance level (which obviously depends on the initial performance level), or not even the difference between final and initial performance level, but also the difficulty at the task. A doctor who saves 8 cancer patients out of 10, is giving us a better performance than a doctor who can cure 9 patients out of 10 who had a cold (and that one is a better doctor than the one who had just 10 healthy patients).

Actually, state standards take into account the population of poorly performing schools/students--one of the reasons why standards can often be quite low.

Again, the TESTS and their grading should be the same for all (best by anonimity, and double blind double or triple grading). And they should be very well designed, testing all the essential abilities of the students in the course matter, and even presenting them with harder problems than they are supposed to be able to handle, so that you can discriminate bright students. No student should be able to solve all of the test material correctly, and all students should be able to solve a minimum of it. It should be quite extensive tests.

For instance, after first grade, it should go from writing down all letters, over to simple reading and writing of words, some simple grammar questions, and even go to reading of several small texts with comprehensive questions, dictation of words and sentences, writing of a small text,... All the requested abilities of the reading/writing/comprehension should be tested, a bit below and a bit above the required level. It should take one or two days, and the test should be carefully designed.

 

[ComputerGeek]

I'd like to encourage people with subject-specific PhDs to teach in high schools. There are plenty of people who love to teach, and would do this, but don't because of 1) the pain-in-the-butt rules for getting certified, many of which could and should be waived for someone with a PhD and university teaching experience; let that serve as your student-teaching requirement, and 2) the low salary potential. So, we're going to make it easier for someone with a PhD (not in education, but in a specific subject) to get a teaching certification to teach that subject, and we'll reward them with a better salary for bringing in their expertise to the public school classroom.

That might be a good thing, but it might not. You do actually learn so important things in your education curriculum at university. College profs do not have to deal with the same problems that Elementary, Middle and High School teachers have to deal with. Subject knowledge is one thing, classroom management is completely different.

Second, anyone teaching at the high school level should be required to have a major in the subject that they are teaching. I'm tired of schools assigning people with education degrees and one non-major biology course to teach biology, so that's something to change. Let the education majors handle the elementary students. If you're going to teach a subject in high school, you need to know it well yourself.

In Michigan, you need to have a major in a subject in order to teach it more than 2 hours a day, and a minor to just be able to teach it. NCLB has made that happen (one of the good things). NY State (I believe) requires all teachers to get a masters degree with in 5 years of initial certification (not sure if it has to be subject specific).

 

[ComputerGeek]

I didn't even want to add anything to this thread but I just had to add this one thing. What a coincadence... i was talking to a friend and she is still in high school right? She's in a honors Economics course. Her teacher... her TEACHER... HER ECONOMICS TEACHER...has no idea what a mutual fund is or what a cd (certificate of deposit) is! Another irony is that i was just helping out a friend who was doing a paper on how high school doesn't prepare you for college.

You are aware that there is a huge difference between investments and economics. Sure they are related, but understanding the stock market is not necessary to understand economic theory, or even market theory (Which is the theory on which mutual funds are based).

 

[ComputerGeek]

Sorry~~>I couldn't resist!

Oh lord... not that plan for the destruction of education again.

1) Too much standardized testing a BAD because kids will never get a chance to learn to think.

2) all those conditions creates a HUGE and convoluted bureaucracy.

3) lots of other badness I Think was played out quite well in the thread linked to by you.

 

[ComputerGeek]

I believe what you do is get a "teaching credential" which i THINK is like... half way between minoring in something and majoring in something as far as how much work you have to do. Then you do like a "specialization" where you do a little less then a minor in a certain subject so you are allowed to teach that subject or something. But that is just what I've gathered based on bits and pieces. I KNOW you don't have to have a bachelors in the field you teach... but I'm not exactly sure what you do have to have.

I THINK you know nothing.

I do not know where you are from, but in Michigan, you need a major and a minor. you have always needed a major and a minor, since the beginning of standards based teacher education in Michigan.

 

[ComputerGeek]

The solution to education is a higher amount of rigor, and a tighter eye on what teachers are doing as far as assignments and grading.

make sure the curriculum is sufficiently tough, have a lower track for students who fail out of the normal coursework.

If you hold the expectations for students higher, they will rise to the challenge. you do not need testing every year, or all that garbage from bomba which reminds me of a political solution rather than a solution based on any theory of teaching.

Lets teach the kids to think, teach them how to learn, raise the rigor of the course work, and make sure teachers are not being to easy.

 

[BobG]

Oh lord... not that plan for the destruction of education again.

1) Too much standardized testing a BAD because kids will never get a chance to learn to think.

Why would this be true?

When you're developing a plan of instruction, surely you have to know what goals you hope the instruction will meet. Otherwise, why are you developing a course in the first place? It seems to me that the tests should flow pretty logically from the goals you hoped to achieve in the first place.

There is a limit, though. You don't want to spend more money and effort testing than you do teaching. It's hard to develop a good test for large populations since you don't want to spend huge amounts of time grading the test. The standardized tests (SAT, ACT, various state standardized tests to measure student/school achievement) wind up having to compromise for costs and only measure whether a student posesses the basic tools vs. whether they know how to use them.

That limit shouldn't apply to local schools. The tests for a subject within a school (or school system) should be standardized and should measure more than just basic knowledge. It doesn't do much good for a lousy teacher to only test the things they were able to teach their student. The shortcomings just show up in the next course the student takes.

 

[Pengwuino]

Lets teach the kids to think, teach them how to learn, raise the rigor of the course work, and make sure teachers are not being to easy.

Let me remind folks that we are not looking for beauty pagent/politicians speech answers.

 

[Pengwuino]

I THINK you know nothing.

I do not know where you are from, but in Michigan, you need a major and a minor. you have always needed a major and a minor, since the beginning of standards based teacher education in Michigan.

I'm not from Michigan. Most people are not from michigan. Most people do not live in Michigan. All i know is here, you don't need a BA or BS. My friend is from florida so god knows what they need down there. I also would find it utterly rediculous if someone did achieve a bachelors in economics yet had never heard of a mutual fund and even more rediculous if they had never heard of a CD. It would be like achieving a physics degree without knowing who Maxwell was.

 

[ComputerGeek]

Why would this be true?

Simple, Standardized testing causes a shift away from student centered methods of instruction (BTW, there is always a need for teacher centered methods) which teach students to build their knowledge and understanding, and make use of conceptual learning so, when students get older, they know how to think critically and can learn independently.

The shift away from student centered methods occurs because standardized tests focus (by nature) on factual knowledge (the sky is blue because of the refraction of the light, the square root of 2 is irrational) rather than conceptual understanding (what does it mean that the light is refracted, what is an irrational number). Because of the need for factual knowledge, scores are higher on schools that make use of teacher centered, memorization type curriculums.

It is bad enough with tests every 4 years or so, but having to have tests every single year will virtually guarantee that all student centered approaches to learning will be useless if the focus of the school is to get the kids to pass the test rather than understand the information.

 

[ComputerGeek]

I'm not from Michigan. Most people are not from michigan. Most people do not live in Michigan. All i know is here, you don't need a BA or BS. My friend is from florida so god knows what they need down there. I also would find it utterly rediculous if someone did achieve a bachelors in economics yet had never heard of a mutual fund and even more rediculous if they had never heard of a CD. It would be like achieving a physics degree without knowing who Maxwell was.

Most states require a bachelors with a major and a minor.

I think you have some odd idea that teachers are morons with a manual they are reading out of for answers.

 

[franznietzsche]

Ok let's have a little fun here. You are the President of the United States. Fix the education system. No complaining, just solutions. Be specific, this is not a beauty contest where "fund education" is enough to win. Tell us how you would implement the plan, what laws you would pass, etc etc. Let's see what the people have to say!

So let's hear it!

This is the first in the Pengwuino's "No complaints, lots of solutions" series of threads.*

*This name is subject to change without notice as cooler names are decided. Do not make financial decisions without consulting a professional accountant. The market fluctuates and there is significant risk involved. Please consult your broker before investing.[/size]

Throw out the Politicians: The school boards. They're worthless garbage in most districts, even if they do promote family values almost as often as they promote family members.

Raise teacher salaries, raise certification requirements. America has always despised its teachers and has gotten the ones it deserved (semi-plagiarised from somewhere I forget). Get rid of tenure, replace with long term contracts (5-10 years say, to be renewed only after review). Cut administrator salaries, and ALL perks. Lengthen school hours, as well as the number of days schools are in session. Cut most standardized testing, its mostly a waste of time. Keep only limited competency testing in place (Reading comprehension, essay writing exam, arithmetic exam). Raise curricula standards.

 

[ComputerGeek]

Let me remind folks that we are not looking for beauty pagent/politicians speech answers.

OK, raise rigor? well, that would mean that we want to make the expectations higher for students. If you want me to get specific for everything in a curriculum, we will be here a while.

Make sure teachers are not being soft? audit them, look at their rubric, look at their grading... gee, that is hard.

Teach them to think and learn? well that would be a student centered approach to teaching. Making use of a progressivist/constructivist theory of teaching and making sure you have literacy across the curriculum (especially in mathematics and science where writing is rarely used.)

 

[Pengwuino]

Most states require a bachelors with a major and a minor.

I think you have some odd idea that teachers are morons with a manual they are reading out of for answers.

Can you source that? I'm just going off of what pretty much everyone i know has had to say. I look back now and i realized I had asked a lot of questions to my AP physics teacher back in HS that he should have known even with a physics minor. I've also occasionally talked with the chair of our department and we talked about the public school system and one of the things he noted is that the teachers he has seen in his life seem grossly ill-prepared to teach the material they are suppose to be teaching. Now i know it's simply an implication using anecdotal evidence... but I would be rather shocked/scared if these people do indeed need a bachelors in their field since they seem to just not know the material. And no, I am not confusing ability to teach with their actual knowledge on the subject. Back on topic...

 

[BobG]

Okay, I don't have all the solutions, but I have a place where I'd like to start. I'd like to encourage people with subject-specific PhDs to teach in high schools. There are plenty of people who love to teach, and would do this, but don't because of 1) the pain-in-the-butt rules for getting certified, many of which could and should be waived for someone with a PhD and university teaching experience; let that serve as your student-teaching requirement, and 2) the low salary potential. So, we're going to make it easier for someone with a PhD (not in education, but in a specific subject) to get a teaching certification to teach that subject, and we'll reward them with a better salary for bringing in their expertise to the public school classroom.

Second, anyone teaching at the high school level should be required to have a major in the subject that they are teaching. I'm tired of schools assigning people with education degrees and one non-major biology course to teach biology, so that's something to change. Let the education majors handle the elementary students. If you're going to teach a subject in high school, you need to know it well yourself.

Basically, this is all about incentives to get some of our brighter members of society into the classroom to teach our youth; there aren't enough of them currently. Teaching used to be viewed as a respectable profession, and we should restore it to that status. We can even set up a government-funded scholarship program similar to the ones set up for paying for med school for people willing to commit 6 years to working in underpriviledged communities, or areas where there is a physician shortage. Likewise, we could have a program where competitive students who are willing to teach in schools where there are shortages of qualified teachers can get a full scholarship through college if they commit to a minimum number of years (5 or 6) teaching in one of those schools. Their assignment would be based on need, so they could be assigned to failing schools, or rural communities, or overcrowded inner city schools to help raise the educational levels in those areas.

It comes down to money and qualifications.

Someone with university teaching experience could probably be waived from certification, but, generally, knowing how to teach and knowing a specific science are two completely different things. Increasing the amount of training required to become a teacher makes it harder to attract teachers in the first place, but it also reduces the likelihood of the teacher changing professions - they have more personally invested in the profession, making it harder to walk away.

Science and math are still tough fields to attract teachers and hold on to them. In one study(http://nces.ed.gov/das/epubs/2001189/results_1.asp), 87% of newly graduated education majors were still teaching in K-12 three years later while only 70% of engineering, math, and science majors were still teaching in K-12 three years later. If you're good in math or science, a private company will pay more money. At high school, I don't think there are very many non-math or non-science majors teaching courses like calculus, biology, or physics. But, an elementary school teacher with any substantial math or science background is a rarity, so students entering high school don't have a very strong background in those subjects when they enter high school.

The teaching profession is doing a better job increasing teacher training and proficiency. Over half of teachers have masters degrees, now. It's just there are more high quality teachers in suburbs with high property values (and higher property tax revenues) than there are in the cities, so the proficiency levels aren't evenly distributed.

I don't hold much expectation that more money will be put into public education. Now a days, people want school vouchers so they can take money out of the public education system and pour it into more religion-oriented schooling. That's kind of misguided thinking. If tax money is being used to pay for education, the education should be training people for jobs that will help the country, not providing for some personal standard of quality.

 

[Astronuc]

I concur with Moonbear's recommendations!

I took two years of chemistry in high school under the same teacher who had an MS degree in Chem. I took AP Chem, got a 5, and placed out of my freshmen chem class and lab.

One physics teacher had a PhD from Calttech, but he left before I took physics, and we had teacher who had a BS perhaps. I took AP Phys, got 4 (maybe 5) and placed out of 1 semester of physics.

The calculus teacher was great. I did AP Calc BC and placed out freshmen math, and started with sophomore level math in university.

During Summers, I took classes at university starting between grades 7/8, and between 11/12 grade, I did an 8 week course (NSF Summer Science Educational Program) in nuclear and electrical engineering.

 

[ComputerGeek]

Throw out the Politicians: The school boards. They're worthless garbage in most districts, even if they do promote family values almost as often as they promote family members.

Raise teacher salaries, raise certification requirements. America has always despised its teachers and has gotten the ones it deserved (semi-plagiarised from somewhere I forget). Get rid of tenure, replace with long term contracts (5-10 years say, to be renewed only after review). Cut administrator salaries, and ALL perks. Lengthen school hours, as well as the number of days schools are in session. Cut most standardized testing, its mostly a waste of time. Keep only limited competency testing in place (Reading comprehension, essay writing exam, arithmetic exam). Raise curricula standards.

YES! That is exactly what needs t be done.

 

[Pengwuino]

OK, raise rigor? well, that would mean that we want to make the expectations higher for students. If you want me to get specific for everything in a curriculum, we will be here a while.

I've seen threads go on with the same pointless dribble for 300 posts. We have time

 

[ComputerGeek]

I've seen threads go on with the same pointless dribble for 300 posts. We have time

Im not getting paid to write a new curriculum (those are very very very very think reports), so you will just have to accept the conceptual understanding I provided.

 

[Pengwuino]

Im not getting paid to write a new curriculum (those are very very very very think reports), so you will just have to accept the conceptual understanding I provided.

No one around here gets paid to write public policy either but that doesn't stop them. Join the fun.

 

[Moonbear]

That might be a good thing, but it might not. You do actually learn so important things in your education curriculum at university. College profs do not have to deal with the same problems that Elementary, Middle and High School teachers have to deal with. Subject knowledge is one thing, classroom management is completely different.

Do you really think there's that much difference between a Freshman college class and a high school class in terms of classroom management? I don't. But, that's why I limited it to high school, where the subject material starts getting into more depth. I recognize that there are things in an education curriculum that are more important for elementary and middle school students, things that help teach them how to behave in a classroom, how to develop good study habits, how to learn the fundamentals, and anyone who has gone through college should know the fundamentals at an elementary and junior high level, so specialization in subject matter is less important than knowing how to adapt to many learning modalities. But, the thing is, anyone with an interest in teaching who obtains a PhD learns about that too, we just don't take formal classes on education.

You mention the standards in MI. That sounds good, but I don't get the impression that's at all universally applied, and it sounds like there's a loophole for schools that can't find people with subject-specific knowledge, namely, don't have them teach it more than 2 hours a day. That means a teacher can be assigned to teach two 40 min classes in biology, two 40 min classes in chemistry, and supervise a study hall, all with an English major. I ran into a friend of mine from college at a reunion, and she was teaching...she had an English major and was assigned to teach math! There's something very wrong with that.

I still think the most important thing is to get incentives for some of our brighter people to want to teach at all. And that's something that can be done on a federal level. There's not much that can be done on a federal level about individual state's requirements to obtain teaching credentials. But, we can provide federally-funded scholarships to offer an incentive for people who really want to get into education and are willing to teach in schools where there's a shortage of qualified teachers.

And, since you're concerned that those education requirements are important for a PhD, then how about we make a scholarship/stipend program available for people with PhDs who want to get into teaching so that they can get those education courses and student teaching credits to get them certified. Afterall, the idea of paying for MORE school, at an undergraduate level no less, after you've already obtained your PhD, is quite a disincentive to change tracks to teach at a high school level.

I'll check into some credentialling requirements in various states and see how they compare with what you've shared about MI. By the way, what's your source for that information? That would be helpful.

 

[ComputerGeek]

No one around here gets paid to write public policy either but that doesn't stop them. Join the fun.

I have been, but I am not going to go on about something that I have not given the thought that it requires.

Raise rigor... raise standards (as Bob put it). All that means is to expect our students to be able to do more. they use to teach modular arithmetic in 5 grade (and called it modular arithmetic), They use to actually use the names for things, rather than coming up with vague descriptions.

Expect our students to be able to do more.

 

[BobG]

Simple, Standardized testing causes a shift away from student centered methods of instruction (BTW, there is always a need for teacher centered methods) which teach students to build their knowledge and understanding, and make use of conceptual learning so, when students get older, they know how to think critically and can learn independently.

The shift away from student centered methods occurs because standardized tests focus (by nature) on factual knowledge (the sky is blue because of the refraction of the light, the square root of 2 is irrational) rather than conceptual understanding (what does it mean that the light is refracted, what is an irrational number). Because of the need for factual knowledge, scores are higher on schools that make use of teacher centered, memorization type curriculums.

It is bad enough with tests every 4 years or so, but having to have tests every single year will virtually guarantee that all student centered approaches to learning will be useless if the focus of the school is to get the kids to pass the test rather than understand the information.

If a school can teach conceptual understanding without teaching basic factual knowledge, then that's a very creative curriculum, for sure.

I don't have a problem with saying the large-group standardized tests don't really give a full picture of how well schools are teaching a subject - I just don't believe the tests themselves actually cause schools to make their curriculums worse.

Instead, the ability to adapt to using standardized tests to measure school achievement has varied a lot. Some schools systems have learned how to circumvent the testing standards, some have stressed spending more time on preparing for the test at the expense of learning something new, some haven't made any sort of significant adjustment at all. Among individual teachers, experienced teachers usually adapt to the standardized tests without much trouble while new teachers react unpredictably. I've seen examples where standardized testing has been implemented badly in some specific cases, but I don't think I've seen a good overall picture of the impact of standardized testing.

(Of course, if a good idea is implemented badly enough, it could wind up being so much trouble that it's easier to scrap the idea than to fix what you did wrong in the implementation - if you completely trash people's confidence in an idea, restoring confidence may be more trouble than it's worth.)

If there's any legitimate criticism of standardized testing, it's that it has only confirmed what people knew in the first place. The economic level of the students attending a school is the most significant factor in the achievement level of a school's students. That makes it hard to hold schools accountable for the students' results.

 

[Dawguard]

Use a voucher system to encourage competition. That way poor people could afford to send their children to a private school where they actually have to work for their money. In a public school there is little incentive to teach children well, all you need is the money. Here in Michigan the teacher's union can pretty much demand as much funding from the government they want simply becuase they're such a large voting block. Once they get the funding they can use it for such idocies like faculty's rec rooms, weight machines, olympic size swimming pools, etc., all of which the taxpayer has to bear the burden of. We are paying for the faculty, administrators not just teachers, to get free benefits that most people can't afford. I think its a disgrace that they're able to pick the pocket of lower middle class or poor people just so they can get free perks. To add insult to injury they make the public pay to access the pools, exersize machines, etc. We've already payed for it once, why should they make us do it again?
Simple solution, vouchers. They will finally have competition and this will force them to use their money and assests to educate people, as well as enable poorer people to have acess to better schools.

 

[ComputerGeek]

Do you really think there's that much difference between a Freshman college class and a high school class in terms of classroom management?

Between seniors in HS and Freshmen in college... no, but HS deals with 14 -18... lots of differences exist between college freshmen and 14-16 year olds. Also, you have to deal with the fact that you have to deal with all of them. Going to college is a privilege, not a right. there is a sieve there that makes even freshmen in collage a different group than those found in HS.

But, that's why I limited it to high school, where the subject material starts getting into more depth.

Not as deep as you would think. American primary education is extremely broad, but very shallow (that is part of the problem in US education, and standardized testing)

I recognize that there are things in an education curriculum that are more important for elementary and middle school students, things that help teach them how to behave in a classroom, how to develop good study habits, how to learn the fundamentals, and anyone who has gone through college should know the fundamentals at an elementary and junior high level, so specialization in subject matter is less important than knowing how to adapt to many learning modalities.

I half agree with you. I think that specialization is still very important. You have lots of social studies, and english majors in elementary education, very few science and math majors... guess where the US lacks the greatest later on in middle and high school?

With so few math and science majors in elementary school, students get poor education in those areas. in 3rd grade, kids should be exposed to the concepts of the pythagorean theorem, but if you have an english major teaching math, they will likely breeze over it as they do not get it themselves.

But, the thing is, anyone with an interest in teaching who obtains a PhD learns about that too, we just don't take formal classes on education.

You learn how to teach your material through the school of hard knocks, but there is a large amount of psychological theory that is taught in education now as well as behavior management theory (and you would be surprised at how well that stuff works, even though it seems unintuitive).

You mention the standards in MI. That sounds good, but I don't get the impression that's at all universally applied, and it sounds like there's a loophole for schools that can't find people with subject-specific knowledge, namely, don't have them teach it more than 2 hours a day. That means a teacher can be assigned to teach two 40 min classes in biology, two 40 min classes in chemistry, and supervise a study hall, all with an English major. I ran into a friend of mine from college at a reunion, and she was teaching...she had an English major and was assigned to teach math! There's something very wrong with that.

no, they need a minor to teach it at all. And yes, there is something very wrong with that...but we do desperately need math teachers.

I still think the most important thing is to get incentives for some of our brighter people to want to teach at all. And that's something that can be done on a federal level. There's not much that can be done on a federal level about individual state's requirements to obtain teaching credentials. But, we can provide federally-funded scholarships to offer an incentive for people who really want to get into education and are willing to teach in schools where there's a shortage of qualified teachers.

incentives are fine, but if they are not a certified and suck as a teacher, or a qualified teacher becomes available, they should not have the right to keep the position.

And, since you're concerned that those education requirements are important for a PhD, then how about we make a scholarship/stipend program available for people with PhDs who want to get into teaching so that they can get those education courses and student teaching credits to get them certified. Afterall, the idea of paying for MORE school, at an undergraduate level no less, after you've already obtained your PhD, is quite a disincentive to change tracks to teach at a high school level.

Teacher education is not undergraduate work, it is a certification added to what ever degree you have. And, yes, I think that if a person wants to get into education they should have some help getting certified (even making special programs for Ph.D.s like a differential program that covers the psychology, behavior theory, and covers the history of american education. Passing the certification tests will certainly not be a problem (I think they should be harder than what they are)

I'll check into some credentialling requirements in various states and see how they compare with what you've shared about MI. By the way, what's your source for that information? That would be helpful.

I am a university student in Computer Science and Mathematics (Double major) in Michigan and I am going into education, so I have the first hand track on all this, plus my mom and dad were both teachers, so I have a bit of historical knowledge about how Michigan education has progressed (especial over the last 20 years, when Engler was here and causes such a ruckus)

 

[ComputerGeek]

Use a voucher system to encourage competition. That way poor people could afford to send their children to a private school where they actually have to work for their money. In a public school there is little incentive to teach children well, all you need is the money. Here in Michigan the teacher's union can pretty much demand as much funding from the government they want simply becuase they're such a large voting block. Once they get the funding they can use it for such idocies like faculty's rec rooms, weight machines, olympic size swimming pools, etc., all of which the taxpayer has to bear the burden of. We are paying for the faculty, administrators not just teachers, to get free benefits that most people can't afford. I think its a disgrace that they're able to pick the pocket of lower middle class or poor people just so they can get free perks. To add insult to injury they make the public pay to access the pools, exersize machines, etc. We've already payed for it once, why should they make us do it again?
Simple solution, vouchers. They will finally have competition and this will force them to use their money and assests to educate people, as well as enable poorer people to have acess to better schools.

Forget vouchers... Public charter schools are a much better, less controversial, and publicly funded way to introduce competition. Michigan has TONS of charter schools that have been started up by universities, and corporations. Many are bad, but many are good too. The voucher debate is around only because religious folks who send their kids to private religious schools want their tax dollars back.

 

[ComputerGeek]

If a school can teach conceptual understanding without teaching basic factual knowledge, then that's a very creative curriculum, for sure.

I did not say that. The problem is that focusing on factual knowledge ONLY does not teach conceptual understanding which is dearly needed by students in order for them to think on higher levels of bloom's taxonomy. I know, you can not teach concepts without facts, but facts are not the end all be all of education. Standardized testing causes teachers to focus on facts and ignore concepts and understanding.

I don't have a problem with saying the large-group standardized tests don't really give a full picture of how well schools are teaching a subject - I just don't believe the tests themselves actually cause schools to make their curriculums worse.

They do because if a school is focused only on scoring well on a facts based test... why would they bother teaching concepts? it will not help them at all.

It is not a question of if this happens, it does happen (mostly in the years of testing, and more often in lower income districts that are struggling with funding)

Instead, the ability to adapt to using standardized tests to measure school achievement has varied a lot. Some schools systems have learned how to circumvent the testing standards, some have stressed spending more time on preparing for the test at the expense of learning something new, some haven't made any sort of significant adjustment at all. Among individual teachers, experienced teachers usually adapt to the standardized tests without much trouble while new teachers react unpredictably. I've seen examples where standardized testing has been implemented badly in some specific cases, but I don't think I've seen a good overall picture of the impact of standardized testing.

(Of course, if a good idea is implemented badly enough, it could wind up being so much trouble that it's easier to scrap the idea than to fix what you did wrong in the implementation - if you completely trash people's confidence in an idea, restoring confidence may be more trouble than it's worth.)

If there's any legitimate criticism of standardized testing, it's that it has only confirmed what people knew in the first place. The economic level of the students attending a school is the most significant factor in the achievement level of a school's students. That makes it hard to hold schools accountable for the students' results.

exactly.

Now, the debate seems though to have turned me into some extremist who thinks there should be no bench mark testing at all. I am simply arguing that a yearly test would destroy the school system because of the inherent negative effects that a standardized test has.

 

[Dawguard]

Forget vouchers... Public charter schools are a much better, less controversial, and publicly funded way to introduce competition. The voucher debate is around only because religious folks who send their kids to private religious schools want their tax dollars back.

Let's deconstruct this one piece at a time. Who cares if vouchers are controversial? Shouldn't we be concerned with what's right rather then what's popular? Next: that is not the only reason the voucher debate is around. Just becuase it might be seen as a stereotype with that impression doesn't make it so. Come on, you're smarter then this, we PF members should be above using stereotypes. I know several people who just want to get a better education then what the public school offers. Most of the private schools aren't religious, and most of the people I know who suport vouchers aren't religious. They simply see that the method of education in the public schools is broken and want to use their money, which they already paid in taxes, for something that will help their children in the future.

 

[ComputerGeek]

Let's deconstruct this one piece at a time. Who cares if vouchers are controversial?

Viability to get passed as a law is directly proportional to popularity.

Next: that is not the only reason the voucher debate is around. Just becuase it might be seen as a stereotype with that impression doesn't make it so. Come on, you're smarter then this, we PF members should be above using stereotypes. I know several people who just want to get a better education then what the public school offers.

your argument is mute because we have Charter schools in michigan (which is my point that vouchers are not needed and thusly are only promoted strongly by those who want to get their tax money back for choosing to send their kids to private non charter schools)

Most of the private schools aren't religious, and most of the people I know who suport vouchers aren't religious. They simply see that the method of education in the public schools is broken and want to use their money, which they already paid in taxes, for something that will help their children in the future.

Most of those people seem unaware of what the charter school system in Michigan is, as do you.

 

[Moonbear]

Okay, here's one example. Illinois requirements, which have just changed to comply with NCLB.
http://www.isbe.state.il.us/certification/html/becoming_teacher.htm

Secondary Grades (9–12)
Teaching assignment: Primary responsibility for teaching content in the core academic
subjects in a secondary setting.
Options to be considered highly qualified
1. Hold a Secondary Certificate (Type 09) and meet one of the following options:
o Pass the Content-Area Test for each area of teaching responsibility
o Have a major or coursework equivalent to a major in each area of
teaching responsibility
o Have a graduate degree or advanced certification (e.g., NBPTS) in each
area of teaching responsibility
2. Hold an Elementary Certificate (Type 03) and meet one of the following options:
o Pass the Elementary/Middle Grades Test and the Content-Area Test in
the area of teaching responsibility (applicable only for grade 9)
o Pass the Elementary/Middle Grades Test and have a major or coursework
equivalent to a major (applicable only for grade 9)
o Have a graduate degree or advanced certification (e.g., NBPTS) in each
area of teaching responsibility (applicable only to grade 9)

3. Hold a Provisional Elementary (applicable only to grade 9), Secondary or Special
K–12 Certificate (as listed above) based on certification in another state or
nation; and pass the required tests for each area of teaching responsibility (see
above) within 9 months of certification

However, when reading that bit about a "major or coursework equivalent to a major," keep in mind that they define coursework equivalent to a major as only 32 credit hours. That might cut it in the humanities, but in the sciences, that's quite a far cry from the 72 credit hours my biology major required, and even falls short of a minor. It also doesn't even specify any minimum grade point average, so someone could have barely passed all their biology courses with low Cs or Ds and it sounds like it would still count. I haven't found any information on what is tested in their content-area tests and what type of score is required for passing.

Okay, I found information on a content area test for NY state, and looked over the sample questions. http://www.nystce.nesinc.com/NY_viewSG_opener.asp I think you could ALL pass that one, well, with the exception of the one question that I think is blatantly wrong (it's one that asks what is the most significant ethical concern regarding transgenic crops, and says the correct answer is the one that is the most commonly expressed concern, about crops producing new substances that may harm people unpredictable ways, but if you know anything about science, it is not a valid concern, thus I wouldn't consider it significant, just popular...there is another real ethical concern in the list about manufacturers producing sterile crops so farmers have to buy seed every year rather than save their own...and that REALLY annoys me to see that right there in the teacher's test, they're propagating a myth that now those teachers will run out and teach all their students). There's also a question on the sample test that has the correct answer indicated, but the explanation of the answer is wrong...it is worded in a way that makes it sound like the pituitary is part of the brain. A test can only be as good as the person writing the test.

Basically, this test tests if you would know high school level biology, but I think a good teacher in a subject very certainly ought to know MORE than what their students know, not just as much, otherwise, how do they explain the reasoning behind the information they present, or clarify something that a student is confused about, or inspire their students to learn more about the subject than just what is required as minimum course content? And, therein lies the problem I see and why I want to get people with more depth of knowledge into the teaching profession at the high school level.

Oh, wait, and it gets better...here's their information on scoring and what constitutes a "pass."

For consistency, test scores for all tests other than the Assessment of Teaching Skills—Performance (ATS–P) (video) are reported using the same scale. The total test score is reported in a range from 100 to 300 and is based on performance on all sections of the test. An examinee’s multiple-choice score and scores on any constructed-response assignments are combined to obtain the total test score. A score of 220 represents the minimum passing score for each test. An examinee with a total test score of 220 or above passes the test. An examinee with a total test score below 220 does not pass the test. For more information about score reporting, visit the NYSTCE Web site.

So, with a range of 100 to 300, you can get a 220 and still pass! I don't know if that really correlates to only getting 50% of the questions right, because they don't seem to want to reveal anything about their scoring beyond that, but that's pretty scary when at least the sample questions were so easy that everyone teaching that subject ought to be able to get them all correct.

So, okay, here's my revised plan based on what I'm uncovering so far.
Beyond taking that test to get certified, I think you should have to retake it periodically to remain certified, with the passing score required being substantially higher. In other words, if someone taking a test for the first time, having never taught that course before, can pass with a 220, certainly I'd expect that after teaching for 5 years, they should have adequately mastered the subject to score more like a 280 (though, this would depend on the actual scoring method...I'd rather see it done as a clear percentage of correct responses rather than some weird, arbitrary scale), and after 10 years, your score should be nearly perfect...let's say you need to get 95% of the answers correct, allowing for a few errors due to time constraints or reading something wrong. But, if you're going to teach a subject, you should have achieved that level of mastery over the material the students are required to learn. How could you challenge your brightest students if you only know as much as they do?

 

[BobG]

Let's deconstruct this one piece at a time. Who cares if vouchers are controversial? Shouldn't we be concerned with what's right rather then what's popular? Next: that is not the only reason the voucher debate is around. Just becuase it might be seen as a stereotype with that impression doesn't make it so. Come on, you're smarter then this, we PF members should be above using stereotypes. I know several people who just want to get a better education then what the public school offers. Most of the private schools aren't religious, and most of the people I know who suport vouchers aren't religious. They simply see that the method of education in the public schools is broken and want to use their money, which they already paid in taxes, for something that will help their children in the future.

In 1997-98, about 22% of private schools were not religiously affiliated schools and they accounted for only 16% of students at private schools. (NCES data) Catholic schools account for 30% of private schools and about half of the students at private schools; other religious schools account for 48% of private schools and about 35% of private schools students.

Another fallacy is the idea that competition improves the quality of a school. Competition doesn't improve the quality of businesses, so why would it improve the quality of a school?

What competition does is to eliminate the vast majority of businesses so that only the strong ones survive - most businesses fail within 6 months. Using the same strategy for schools means that the quality of the public schools that survive will be very good, but there won't be very many left.

There's another fallacy that more money doesn't improve a school system - good management does. That's only half true, but the problem with the argument is that the people who use it are implying that a lack of money will improve management.

A certain floor is needed to have a chance of a good educational system. After that, good management is more important than money. Beyond a certain level, only good management can actually bring improvements in proportion to the amount of extra money being invested. No amount of good management is going to turn no money into a good education system.

 

[Moonbear]

Not as deep as you would think. American primary education is extremely broad, but very shallow (that is part of the problem in US education, and standardized testing)

That's part of the problem I'm trying to solve. The content remains too shallow because the teachers don't have the necessary depth of knowledge themselves. If we encourage people with that depth of knowledge to start teaching, that will naturally allow the bar to be raised of what the students can be taught.

I do think you need to go back to Pengwuino's original post and re-read it, though. He specifically stated this thread is not to be about saying all the things WRONG with education in the US (we have threads on that), but to provide specific, concrete examples of how to fix it. He's not interested in vague generalities or complaints about standardized testing, he's interested in how would you actually implement change. Please keep to that topic.

 

[ComputerGeek]

Okay, here's one example. Illinois requirements, which have just changed to comply with NCLB.
http://www.isbe.state.il.us/certification/html/becoming_teacher.htm


However, when reading that bit about a "major or coursework equivalent to a major," keep in mind that they define coursework equivalent to a major as only 32 credit hours. That might cut it in the humanities, but in the sciences, that's quite a far cry from the 72 credit hours my biology major required, and even falls short of a minor. It also doesn't even specify any minimum grade point average, so someone could have barely passed all their biology courses with low Cs or Ds and it sounds like it would still count. I haven't found any information on what is tested in their content-area tests and what type of score is required for passing...

You said a lot of right things. The quality of the teacher depends on the quality of the education program, just like the quality of a Ph.D. depends on the quality of the school or the quality of a doctor depends on the quality of the school.

The school I entered for education required me to have a 3.0 in both my major and minor (in my case both majors), It also required that we pass the Michigan Basic Skills exam (a joke) with a higher than minimum score and even added on the Praxis 1 exam (an exam not used in michigan because we have the basic skills exam) with a 270 or higher on all parts (My sister-in-law is a teacher in montana and she had to take Praxis 1 for entry into her universities education program, the base passing requirement in only 220) PLUS you needed two letters of recommendation from your professors during your undergrad education.

Not all universities have such requirements to enter the college of education, so, I could see where there is certainly some cause for concern... but in general, NCLB has raised the standards of teacher prep and who can teach a class in high school (which seems to still be needing to get adjusted for more compliance) so, the country is moving in the right direction, but as is always true, everything is not the same, and there are bad states/districts, and good ones.

 

[Moonbear]

Use a voucher system to encourage competition. That way poor people could afford to send their children to a private school where they actually have to work for their money. In a public school there is little incentive to teach children well, all you need is the money. Here in Michigan the teacher's union can pretty much demand as much funding from the government they want simply becuase they're such a large voting block. Once they get the funding they can use it for such idocies like faculty's rec rooms, weight machines, olympic size swimming pools, etc., all of which the taxpayer has to bear the burden of. We are paying for the faculty, administrators not just teachers, to get free benefits that most people can't afford. I think its a disgrace that they're able to pick the pocket of lower middle class or poor people just so they can get free perks. To add insult to injury they make the public pay to access the pools, exersize machines, etc. We've already payed for it once, why should they make us do it again?
Simple solution, vouchers. They will finally have competition and this will force them to use their money and assests to educate people, as well as enable poorer people to have acess to better schools.

Sorry, but I have a big problem with vouchers in that they do not actually inspire competition, but rather weaken the value of the education dollar by dividing resources further rather than consolidating them. I don't see that as a solution, I see it as a way to worsen the problem. What happens to the kid whose parents can't afford the balance of their tuition to private school, or who can't get accepted into that private school, or when the cost of parochial school tuition goes up because parishioners refuse to contribute to the school because too many non-parishioners are attending (very often, proponents of vouchers attempt to compare the cost of parochial school tuition to the actual amount spent on public school education, but fail to acknowledge that parochial schools operate on a somewhat charitable basis with funds coming from the parish in addition to the tuition funds, so the actual cost of education is substantially higher than just the tuition; they also leave out that detail that private schools that are not parochial have much, much higher tuition that vouchers simply won't cover, AND that those private schools aren't going to accept anyone except the very top students), or for those who do not wish to attend a religiously-affiliated school but there's no money left in the public school budget to educate them after all the vouchers have been issued? Vouchers are an ill-thought out plan.

ComputerGeek, as for public charter schools, there is no uniform standard for those and at least for the states I've looked up so far, there are no credentialing requirements at all other than that teachers should have a bachelor's degree, but it says nothing about subject area, competency, educational coursework, etc. I don't see them as any better than any other public school, because they have just as much variability in quality, if not more.

 

[ComputerGeek]

That's part of the problem I'm trying to solve. The content remains too shallow because the teachers don't have the necessary depth of knowledge themselves.

I don't think that is a universal truth. and the biggest reason with a shallow curriculum is the fact that we require so much more breadth.

If teachers had the ability to focus on mastery learning in a class, students would get the depth they need, but there are two issues.

1)standardized testing sets the amount of information students need to pass the test, and that is usually a lot more than is reasonably able to get done when you teach shallow, let alone try to delve deeper.

2)There is an odd culture in many schools that getting to a certain chapter in the book is an accomplishment. If you are focusing on getting depth rather than breadth, you will not get as far with one class as you do with another, and you most certainly will not get to what ever benchmark is set by the curriculum board which bases their decisions on what the standardized testing expects.
[/quote]

I do think you need to go back to Pengwuino's original post and re-read it, though. He specifically stated this thread is not to be about saying all the things WRONG with education in the US (we have threads on that), but to provide specific, concrete examples of how to fix it. He's not interested in vague generalities or complaints about standardized testing, he's interested in how would you actually implement change. Please keep to that topic.

Then no one should debate a solution's feasibility?

 

[ComputerGeek]

ComputerGeek, as for public charter schools, there is no uniform standard for those and at least for the states I've looked up so far, there are no credentialing requirements at all other than that teachers should have a bachelor's degree, but it says nothing about subject area, competency, educational coursework, etc. I don't see them as any better than any other public school, because they have just as much variability in quality, if not more.

I was posting that suggestion based on Dawgard (charter schools are better than vouchers for the solution he seeks). I am not a proponent of their use, but there are quite a few good ones out there, and they are open to everyone for free because they are publicly funded.

 

[Moonbear]

Then no one should debate a solution's feasibility?

That's fine...I wrote that before seeing some of your other later posts which you posted while I was typing. Your initial posts here were not particularly constructive, either with regard to feasibility or with suggesting new ideas. You've since gotten into more depth with subsequent posts, so just ignore that.

 

[edward]

I am getting into this thread a bit late in the game. I do know ,however, that recent test results in Arizona have shown that charter schools are actually lagging behind public schools in standardized testing.

Test results released this week by the state showed that just 36 percent of charter-school sophomores passed math on the Arizona's Instrument to Measure Standards test, compared with 73 percent at traditional schools.

http://www.kvoa.com/Global/story.asp?S=3599464

I have very mixed feelings about putting public money into charter schools and that is what is happening here in AZ. Putting the money into private schools only weakens our public school system.

I don't know just at what point the public schools began to deteriorate. If one thinks back however, our entire: space age ,technological, and computerized society was brought to us primarily by people who attended public schools. What happened??

 

[BobG]

I don't know just at what point the public schools began to deteriorate. If one thinks back however, our entire: space age ,technological, and computerized society was brought to us primarily by people who attended public schools. What happened??

The cold war and the space race provided a clear goal for public education in the 50's and 60's.

The role schools should play in developing social norms and self esteem has taken priority since then. The students graduating from school may not be qualified for much, but at least they'll feel good about themselves - after all, it's not their fault they're poor - it's society's.

I think Microsoft, Boeing, Lockheed Martin and other companies should play more of a role in setting educational standards. After all, the point of education should be to prepare students to go work in places like that - especially since the alternative is to become competitive with foreign manufacturers by accepting comparable pay and benefits as foreign labor.

 

[edward]

I agree BOB.

Another thing that started in the 60's was school consolidation. There are now far fewer schools in this country than in the 60's. On the other hand the schools are large. In the cities they are enormous. Yet I keep reading that the ideal school size 9 thru 12 would be 600 to 900 students.

I have always felt that I was lucky to attend a small school. My only peer pressure was to compete with my friends to see who would make the best test scores. Social norms and self esteem were all included in the small school package.