President of the US: Fix the Education System

[Astronuc]

I do think there needs to be feedback from the NASA, National Labs, and Industry into the universities, and from universities back to high school, and from high school to lower grades.

Only in my final year of high school did I even meet someone from a university, and then it was less than one hour during a day in which we meet various representatives of universities.

No one ever came to any classroom to discuss what research was being done, or why we might want to study whatever subject, calculus, math, chem, physics, etc.

It's hard, but every now and then I try to get back to university to talk with faculty and students about what I do.

 

[Astronuc]

Throwing more fuel into the fire -

Did Bush Do The Math?
America might not need lots more science students
By Alex Kingsbury

For the past 50 years, the country that invented the nuclear bomb, the telephone, and the light bulb has been worried about its technical prowess. In the early days, the Soviets posed the greatest threat; now the bogeymen of global competition are China and India. President Bush's call in his State of the Union address for more spending on science and math reflects this persistent national anxiety that the country is falling behind. Bush's goal of continuing to "lead the world in human talent and creativity" was well received, but not everyone agrees on the nature of the threat.

There is little doubt that schools could do a better job educating students, especially in math and science. The National Assessment of Educational Progress, aka the nation's report card, found that only 36 percent of fourth graders and 30 percent of eighth graders were proficient in math last year. In 12th-grade tests in 2003, the United States ranked 16th out of 21 countries in science and 19th in math. And those scores matter: A production associate's job in an automobile plant requires basic math skills that nearly half of America's 17-year-olds do not possess. "The problem is not a lack of spending but a lack of focus on math and science and the importance of continued American competitiveness," Rep. Howard McKeon told a congressional hearing last summer.

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/060213/13science.htm

Yeah, we need to fix the system! Start by giving qualification tests for political office. Of course, anyone can run for political office.

 

[Gokul43201]

This isn't, strictly speaking, a solution. It's a hypothesis that a solution does not exist within this system. The basis for the hypothesis is the following :

In my university, the two men that drive garbage disposal trucks are paid $70K and $80K a year. Nearly a third of the professors in my dept. (these are people with PhDs and at least 1 post doc each under their belts) are paid less than $80K.

I assume this situation is not some freak of nature and is likely prevalent in many parts of the country. And so...I don't see a strong enough incentive for people to take their education seriously.

Also, for the sake of comparison, if you look at coutries where education is typically strong (China, India), the alternative to getting educated is downright scary (unless you are rich or connected).

 

[usa1981]

This is how I would do the exams that bomba923 discribed.
Give EssayMultipule Choice (50%/50%) Exams in all subjects from 4th to 8th grade.
Give Exams Math and Scienices in grades 9th and 11th grade and in the all other sujects in 10th and 12th.
Highest Level Exams: 89% to 100%
Intermdeate Level Exams:73-88%
Foundation Level Exams: These students would be able to put to practice 66% to 72% of waht they had learned/
Entery Level exams: These students would be able to put into pratice only 45% to 65% of waht they had learned.

 

[Astronuc]

Give EssayMultipule Choice (50%/50%) Exams in all subjects from 4th to 8th grade.

I am not sure Essay/multiple choice would be appropriate for mathematics.

When I was in school, from elementary to HS, we were given arithmetical/mathematical problems to solve. I would discourage multiple choice problems (although we had that in 8th grade science) - there is only one right answer, which beyond simple arithmetic requires an orderly solution technique to the problem. Besides, students need to demonstrate their understanding of various formulae and solution techniques/problem solving.

Most science and engineering problems can be written in terms of what is given (input), the appropriate equation(s), the solution (solving the equations with the appropriate input) technique, and the solution (output).

I think of essays as being more qualitative rather than quantitative. Clearly, scientists and engineers need to be able to communicate effectively, and that not only applies to research and results, but also to scientific and technical policy.

 

[usa1981]

I am not sure Essay/multiple choice would be appropriate for mathematics.

When I was in school, from elementary to HS, we were given arithmetical/mathematical problems to solve. I would discourage multiple choice problems (although we had that in 8th grade science) - there is only one right answer, which beyond simple arithmetic requires an orderly solution technique to the problem. Besides, students need to demonstrate their understanding of various formulae and solution techniques/problem solving.

Most science and engineering problems can be written in terms of what is given (input), the appropriate equation(s), the solution (solving the equations with the appropriate input) technique, and the solution (output).

I think of essays as being more qualitative rather than quantitative. Clearly, scientists and engineers need to be able to communicate effectively, and that not only applies to research and results, but also to scientific and technical policy.

All I ment was that arithmetical/mathematical exams would be written. I also was being general those exams would be given in all subjects. I agree with you onthe math,science and engineering Exams

 

[SOS2008]

I have very mixed feelings about putting public money into charter schools and that is what is happening here in AZ. Putting the money into private schools only weakens our public school system.

I don't know just at what point the public schools began to deteriorate. If one thinks back however, our entire: space age ,technological, and computerized society was brought to us primarily by people who attended public schools. What happened??

I am completely against tax dollars going to private schools, because many are religious, and as a private school can teach what ever they choose such as creationism instead of evolution.

Everyone knows teachers are underpaid, especially at the grade school and high school levels. And now with Bush's "No Child Left Behind" program, these teachers must gain special-ed certification on top of the college degree, etc. But if you look at American performance, it is high until a certain age (around 5th grade?). Maybe it isn't so much a matter of poor teaching, but other social variables we need to address?

 

[Omega_6]

I am completely against tax dollars going to private schools, because many are religious, and as a private school can teach what ever they choose such as creationism instead of evolution.

Everyone knows teachers are underpaid, especially at the grade school and high school levels. And now with Bush's "No Child Left Behind" program, these teachers must gain special-ed certification on top of the college degree, etc. But if you look at American performance, it is high until a certain age (around 5th grade?). Maybe it isn't so much a matter of poor teaching, but other social variables we need to address?

Well many kids (at the high school level) just don't feel like having to compete against others to ensure that they can go to a good college. Learning shouldn't be a competition, and people who are in their teenage years need to experience things other than constantly focusing on school. In today's schools, some of these smart kids who also like to have a good time can not even be saved by their SAT scores anymore. Someone receiving a perfect score while having a GPA around 3.6 is nothing compared to a kid who has a GPA of 4.6 and a considerably lower SAT score. Many kids at this age are not yet ready to commit themselves fully to school and when they finally are they must attend a school they are not interested in. I understand that people who work harder should reap the benefits, but is it really fair to put the weight of their entire future on someone who is only 14 or 15 years old?

 

[usa1981]

I am completely against tax dollars going to private schools, because many are religious, and as a private school can teach what ever they choose such as creationism instead of evolution.

Everyone knows teachers are underpaid, especially at the grade school and high school levels. And now with Bush's "No Child Left Behind" program, these teachers must gain special-ed certification on top of the college degree, etc. But if you look at American performance, it is high until a certain age (around 5th grade?). Maybe it isn't so much a matter of poor teaching, but other social variables we need to address?

And now with Bush's "No Child Left Behind" program, these teachers must gain special-ed certification on top of the college degree, etc. But if you look at American performance, it is high until a certain age (around 5th grade?).

Are you sure about that?

May that is true. Public Schools suck and vouchers are/would be given from goverenment for improved education for their child.

 

[Astronuc]

Education
Report: States Inflate School Graduation Rates
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5498897

All Things Considered, June 20, 2006 · There are serious gaps between the high school graduation rates that states report and the actual number of students who receive a diploma, according to a new report. The study, from the journal Education Week, estimates that in the school year that just ended, 1.2 million students failed to graduate. The report explains that states have a variety of methods for calculating graduation rates, which can cause them to overestimate graduation rates.

States Struggle to Certify 'Qualified' Teachers
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5487440

Morning Edition, June 15, 2006 · The No Child Left Behind education law mandates that by year's end, every state should have ensured that every teacher is "highly qualified." Yet no state has met the federal government's requirements under this provision.

http://www.edweek.org/ew/toc/2006/06/22/index.html?levelId=2300

State Graduation Reports

A special state-focused online supplement to Diplomas Count. Features detailed data on high school graduation rates at the national, state, and district level. The report also examines how states calculate graduation rates, tracks state policies related to high school graduation requirements, and explores ways in which states and districts might improve graduation rates based on research.

 

[edward]

The cold war and the space race provided a clear goal for public education in the 50's and 60's.

The role schools should play in developing social norms and self esteem has taken priority since then. The students graduating from school may not be qualified for much, but at least they'll feel good about themselves - after all, it's not their fault they're poor - it's society's.

I think Microsoft, Boeing, Lockheed Martin and other companies should play more of a role in setting educational standards. After all, the point of education should be to prepare students to go work in places like that - especially since the alternative is to become competitive with foreign manufacturers by accepting comparable pay and benefits as foreign labor.

Students need to be challenged and they need to have aspirations. Neither of those things are happening anymore. This is most likely as you mentioned due to things like the end of the space race and other technical challenges. The big companies do need to be involved.

I think that the "No Child Left Behind" fiasco has left a lot of kids feeling that they must be dumb. They are tested and re-tested so much that the only thing they are learning is how to pass the blasted tests.

Humans seem to have an inherent need to be challenged and inventive. Schools are obviously not providing that incentive.
Without any stimulus to be creative and innovative we seem to get lazy and stagnate. This may even be related to why humans seem to have a tendency to start a war every few years.

I have been posting in the global warming thread and it got me to thinking about this thread. Is there any chance that a new challenge, such as an urgent need to develop new energy sources, could break our young students out of their malaise?? Anyone got any ideas?

I doubt that the federal government will look at a students need to be challenged until we are outsourcing the development of our own weapons.

just a ramble.

 

[0TheSwerve0]

Found http://llr.lls.edu/volumes/v32-issue2/hirji.pdf"about the California's public school system.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

You are the President of the United States. Fix the education system.

This is the 10th ammendment to the Constitution that I have sworn to uphold.

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

Therefore, I will see to the education of my own children and call it a day.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

http://llr.lls.edu/volumes/v32-issue2/hirji.pdf"

amongst?

Text added to satisfy a curious criterion.

 

[Jeff Ford]

The first step is to eliminate grades 1-8. Replace them with a single school where all classes are based on ability instead of age. Things like gym class, lunch and recess can be based on age, to ensure proper socialization, but math, reading, grammar, history and the like should be based on ability. When you master one level you get to move up.

The second step is to stop putting everyone in the same high school. Two schools are needed, one for college bound, and one for future trade workers. For someone who isn't interested in college, many of the required courses are just a place for them to cause a disruption. Get that first year of trade school out of the way early, and help these people into the work force sooner.

 

[Astronuc]

Some High Schools Avoid Valedictorians
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=10693512
by Steve Inskeep

Morning Edition, June 4, 2007 · Some high schools are getting rid of a senior class tradition — naming a valedictorian. They say that lowering competition among students is better for their overall success. Eden Prairie High School in Minnesota will graduate its last valedictorians this year. Next year, exceptional students will receive just an honors diploma.

I was looking for an article on the fact that testing nationwide is not uniform and although test scores may be increasing, the actual knowledge of students (or average students) is not.

 

[ShawnD]

I would stop giving all the money to the sports departments of schools

This. My high school had a swimming pool, a football stadium, a hockey arena, and 2 gymnasiums. Sports are nice and all, but it's just a blatant waste of money when it's lumped together with the budget that was intended for real education. I have 2 zany ideas that I always thought would work.

1). Lower the educational requirements to be a teacher and have a stronger emphasis on experience.
Yes I said lower them. In college, one of the best teachers I had was a guy who didn't even have a bachelor of science. He was a guy who had a 2-year diploma in applied chemistry and something like 10 years of experience in the chemical industry. He really knew his stuff. I don't understand why somebody with a master's degree and no experience would be more qualified than somebody with a 2-year certification and 10 years of experience.

2). Eliminate all sports related junk and use this money to award small cash prizes. I mean like you show up every single day for a month and you get $10. Get the highest test score and you get $10. Yes I'm serious. It would probably cost a lot less than having a stadium, but it would actually encourage people to do good.edit: I won't debate these ideas if anybody quotes them. I'm just throwing them out there. Jon Stossel had a 20/20 special on education in the US and one of the principals interviewed said he awarded small cash prizes for achievements in school. It seems like such a cool idea that I just had to include it in this post.

 

[Smurf]

I don't know about the rest of Canada, but in BC the teacher shortage is artificially created. A bachelor's in education should be enough to get a high school job.

I don't know how I'd do it, but as a general thought I think we should require teachers keep up-to-date on the best teaching techniques, which should be a formal branch of psychology imho.

 

[Cyrus]

This. My high school had a swimming pool, a football stadium, a hockey arena, and 2 gymnasiums. Sports are nice and all, but it's just a blatant waste of money when it's lumped together with the budget that was intended for real education.


I have 2 zany ideas that I always thought would work.

1). Lower the educational requirements to be a teacher and have a stronger emphasis on experience.
Yes I said lower them. In college, one of the best teachers I had was a guy who didn't even have a bachelor of science. He was a guy who had a 2-year diploma in applied chemistry and something like 10 years of experience in the chemical industry. He really knew his stuff. I don't understand why somebody with a master's degree and no experience would be more qualified than somebody with a 2-year certification and 10 years of experience.

2). Eliminate all sports related junk and use this money to award small cash prizes. I mean like you show up every single day for a month and you get $10. Get the highest test score and you get $10. Yes I'm serious. It would probably cost a lot less than having a stadium, but it would actually encourage people to do good.

Lol, wow. I posted that a while ago. Talk about old thread.

 

[ShawnD]

I don't know about the rest of Canada, but in BC the teacher shortage is artificially created. A bachelor's in education should be enough to get a high school job.

I don't know how I'd do it, but as a general thought I think we should require teachers keep up-to-date on the best teaching techniques, which should be a formal branch of psychology imho.

I would go as far as saying most shortages are fake.

Anyway, teachers already get training on a regular basis. It may not be extensive or anything, but they do take courses from time to time. It's no different from engineers and chemists taking courses and attending training for some new equipment, new CAD software, or new analytical techniques.

Maybe I'm over the line when I say this but I tend to think good teachers are just good teachers and bad teachers are bad teachers. No amount of training will turn a bad teacher into a good teacher.

 

[Smurf]

Lol, wow. I posted that a while ago. Talk about old thread.

astronuc rezzed it, not shawn.

 

[BobG]

I don't know how I'd do it, but as a general thought I think we should require teachers keep up-to-date on the best teaching techniques, which should be a formal branch of psychology imho.

I think it is to at least some extent. They should have learned something of learning in the physical domain, the cognitive domain, affective domain, etc. In the military, we had quite few volumes of text on instructional system development to include how to identify what should be taught, what methods should be used, how to manage the program, etc. I always kind of assumed it was drawn from civilian programs for teacher education or certification or at least some external source (it was certainly on a different level than most military texts - I had to put it into a format that even satellite operators could understand).