News Progress in Afghanistan: What's Next After 6 Years of War?

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The discussion highlights the complexities of the situation in Afghanistan, emphasizing the need for a coherent strategic plan to secure democracy and stability. Significant progress is noted, including economic growth, improved healthcare access, and increased educational enrollment. However, challenges persist, particularly regarding the Taliban's influence and the geopolitical dynamics involving NATO and neighboring countries. The historical context of U.S. involvement, including past support for the mujahedin, is examined, raising questions about the long-term consequences of such actions. Overall, while there are signs of progress, the path to lasting success in Afghanistan remains uncertain.
  • #151
I had forgotten Shia and Sunni were now iving in harmony in Iraq -
I thought there was a massive civil war between terrorists and government death squads with a large US/UK/Canadian force stuck in the middle desperately trying not to get caught in the cross fire.
 
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  • #152
mgb_phys said:
I had forgotten Shia and Sunni were now iving in harmony in Iraq -
Strawman, again which you know.

I thought there was a massive civil war between terrorists and government death squads with a large US/UK/Canadian force stuck in the middle desperately trying not to get caught in the cross fire.
Massive civil war? Source. I insist.
 
  • #153
Iraq is a different topic, although the Sunni-Shii divide/conflict is regional. It affects Afghanistan, Pakistan and other nations.

Iraq and Afghanistan are not pretty, and certainly far from the ideal, but it could be a lot worse. There have been improvements in the past few years, but there's a lot of inertia to overcome.

It's about the people - and not so much the governments.
 
  • #154
Well - this is not news. It's been know for quite some time that there are huge untapped mineral deposits in Afghanistan and also Baluchistan (Pakistan). Afghanistan sits astride the Tethyan Metallogenic Belt.

U.S. Identifies Vast Riches of Minerals in Afghanistan
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/14/world/asia/14minerals.html
By JAMES RISEN

But as more nations/corporations realize this, it raises the stakes on Afghanistan - and the Great Game continues with more :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

The corruption that is already rampant in the Karzai government could also be amplified by the new wealth, particularly if a handful of well-connected oligarchs, some with personal ties to the president, gain control of the resources. Just last year, Afghanistan’s minister of mines was accused by American officials of accepting a $30 million bribe to award China the rights to develop its copper mine. The minister has since been replaced.

Endless fights could erupt between the central government in Kabul and provincial and tribal leaders in mineral-rich districts. Afghanistan has a national mining law, written with the help of advisers from the World Bank, but it has never faced a serious challenge.
. . . .
Nothing new. There is a similar problem in Pakistan.
 
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  • #155
Since I don't think material riches in any way causes a good society (although a good society might be better able to generate such riches), I don't see anything positive about the vast mineral resources in Afghanistan.

We just might get ourselves a new, extremely rich country, run along the same principle as, say,..Saudi-Arabia.
 
  • #156
Sebastian Junger, author of the book/movie The Perfect Storm, has a book out, War, about his experiences as a journalist spending five months with a US 173rd Airborne twenty man outpost called Restrepo in the Korengal Valley in eastern Afghanistan. He has a recent video interview here, but I was particularly interested in the http://tv.nationalreview.com/uncommonknowledge/post/?q=NWVmM2JkMzRmNWY0NDM2ODhiYTkxY2NhOTYwZjhiNjE=" where he refutes some claims about Afghanistan's viability as a country. I knew a little about how Afghanistan was on an upward swing prior to the Soviet invasion, but he really drives home the point:

Junger:
I've been going to Afghanistan since 1996. It's a country I really care about. I was there in the 90s; it was a bloodbath. If NATO pulls out it is going to go back to that. That is a very, very painful thought for me to contemplate.
[...]
There was a civil war in Afghanistan in 90s that was stopped by the topping of the Taliban after 911. So, the level of suffering of the civilian population, now, is greatly reduced compared to what its been for the last 20 years in that country. I don't think the Afghans are particularly fond of the Americans, who wants to have foreign troops in their country. But, I think most of them are pretty terrified of the prospects if the world pulls out. [...]

Host:
Fouad Ajami, Middle East expert at JHU, supporter of the Iraq war [states ] Not a supporter of the Afghan war. Point number one that he made, is that, there is no Afghanistan to put back together. The idea that that it was a normal country is false: different regions, different tribes, you have overlays of tribal conflict with black markets, with different, effectively, war chieftains. How do you respond to that? [..]

Junger:
He's totally wrong. [...] That's totally wrong. Kabul was the location of the best medical school in all of Asia in the 70s', before the Soviets came in and destroyed that country and then triggered a civil war that is essentially still going on. The hippy trail went through Afghanistan, it was a place that many many western visitors went, there were museums, there were ancient monuments that tourists would go to. I mean, it wasn't unified in the sense that the US is unified, but that doesn't mean it was in conflict. It was stable for a decade. [...] It functioned.

There's tribes, there's nomads, there are all kinds of scenes right out the bible. [...] But it was a functioning country. And it was peaceful enough that people went there in the 60s and 70s regularly. It was a real tourist destination. The soviet invasion ruined that, and now the country is trying to put itself back together.
[...]
The Western world figured out how to drive the German Army out of Europe. They did D-Day. They swept France and pushed the Germans back into Germany. If they can do that, there's something like ten or twenty thousand Taliban fighters, essentially barefoot in the mountains with AKs, they [the West] can probably figure out how to win that fight. I think the problem is not a military one in Afghanistan, I think it is a political problem in the countries of Europe and the US. [...]

[...]
Every country in Europe has been attacked or has had a near miss from Al'Qaeda. Madrid , London, Holland, Italy. [...] I think the world needs to understand that the chaos and violence of Afghanistan can reach out to touch them - in the future, in a year, in ten years. It was a rogue state, it was a perfect refuge for an organization like AQ. There were no extradition treaties. [...] And, if we go back to the 90s, we may risk going back to 911
 
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  • #157
Astronuc said:
Well - this is not news. It's been know for quite some time that there are huge untapped mineral deposits in Afghanistan and also Baluchistan (Pakistan). Afghanistan sits astride the Tethyan Metallogenic Belt.

U.S. Identifies Vast Riches of Minerals in Afghanistan
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/14/world/asia/14minerals.html
By JAMES RISEN

But as more nations/corporations realize this, it raises the stakes on Afghanistan - and the Great Game continues with more :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Nothing new. There is a similar problem in Pakistan.

Raises interesting questions.

With the promise of a profitable economy, the costs of constant warfare suddenly seem a lot larger.

On the other hand, civil wars tend to end when one party can no longer find a way to get the weapons necessary to keep fighting. If outside countries want an inroad to sharing the development of Afghanistan in return for a share of the profits, then they need to invest money in making sure 'their side' wins.

It makes it easier for the warring factions to find someone to back them financially.

The problem in Afghanistan is finding any group that actually draws from a cross section of the population (vs consisting solely from people in their own little tribal group). People like to point out the US folly in assisting the Taliban when the Soviets were controlling Afghanistan, but it went further than just being anti-Soviet. The US could have picked from among several anti-Soviet groups. The Taliban was the only group drawing from all of the tribal factions in Afghanistan, making it the most likely group to establish some stability. Granted, the US miscalculated on the strength of the Taliban's fundamentalist religious views, and on the Taliban's likelihood of picking a new 'friend' once the US lost interest, but ...

I wonder if the mineral deposits will actually help, or if it will turn Afghanistan into another Sierra Leone with their blood diamonds.
 
  • #158
BobG said:
[...] People like to point out the US folly in assisting the Taliban when the Soviets were controlling Afghanistan, but it went further than just being anti-Soviet.
The Taliban didn't exist as any kind of organization during the Soviet occupation. Mullah Omar, the Taliban founder, undertook his first reported military action as leader in 1994. Most US assistance during the Soviet occupation went to the Mujahideen, notably highly successful anti-Soviet fighters like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Shah_Massoud" , who was later assassinated by AQ and the Taliban as part of the Afghan civil war, two days before 911.
 
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  • #159
arildno said:
Since I don't think material riches in any way causes a good society (although a good society might be better able to generate such riches), I don't see anything positive about the vast mineral resources in Afghanistan.

We just might get ourselves a new, extremely rich country, run along the same principle as, say,..Saudi-Arabia.

i think SA is something of a special case, being home to Mecca. there is an issue there of keeping up appearances, lest one become the target of a holy war.
 
  • #160
arildno said:
We just might get ourselves a new, extremely rich country, run along the same principle as, say,..Saudi-Arabia.
Yes apparently the monarchy period under http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_Zahir_Shah" has seen the most stability in modern times, running the country intact and moving up for some forty years.
 
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  • #161
Proton Soup said:
i think SA is something of a special case, being home to Mecca. there is an issue there of keeping up appearances, lest one become the target of a holy war.

Well, use Brunei instead. Not a very nice place for kaffirs..
 
  • #162
Max Faust said:
We must have quite different standards for what constitutes a military achievement then.
You can spend five hundred frakkin' years in Afghanistan and still achieve nothing. Sure, you can blow up some houses and kill some rugged goat-herders here and there but the only real change that has happened in Afghanistan since 2001 is that they are now the world's number one heroin manufacturer again. Good job!

Regarding the opium, there has been a new found "natural" virus that has infected opium farms in Afghanistan. Farmers would collect around 140 kg of opium, now get only 14 kg of opium from their harvest. They blame International Forces and US for spraying crops with chemicals, although they deny those claims. lol

I see this as a good thing, and I sort of agree with you about how not much has been achieved through the military. With Afghanistan there can only be so much work done with an army. If the co-operation of a government is not available to assist the military and foreign assistance then there is no stability. Just mass invasion and counter-insurgency alone will not do anything.

The government is pretty much controlled by the drug lords and men in hand with the Taliban, and Karzai can't do anything about it apparently. My proposition is this: Make some sort of deal with those cockroaches in the government and their puppet masters. For the hundredth time we were told about Afghanistan's vast supply of natural resources amounting to over $1 trillion US. Why can't they promise some money from the extraction of those resources to those drug lords and others? Most likely it will be the US trying to get in on the resources and maybe that is what scares off these guys.

The way I see it, nothing can be done in Afghanistan without having the government AND its people work together.

Forgive me if I made any mistakes with facts, or was not clear with my reasoning.
 
  • #163
rmalik said:
Regarding the opium, there has been a new found "natural" virus that has infected opium farms in Afghanistan. Farmers would collect around 140 kg of opium, now get only 14 kg of opium from their harvest. They blame International Forces and US for spraying crops with chemicals, although they deny those claims. lol

ugh, are you kidding? that would be a huge destabilizing factor. i can't imagine why we'd do it intentionally at this point unless plans were already under way to replace the economy with mining of minerals. that has certainly been in the news lately. interesting.
 
  • #164
This summer looks to be much harder than previous summers for troops in Afghanistan.

May 2010 - 34 US fatalities.
s=2.0&chs=300x200&chxl=0:|02|03|04|05|06|07|08|09|10|&chtt=Afghanistan+US+May+Fatalities+by+Year.png


June 2010 - [STRIKE]41[/STRIKE] 43 US fatalities (as of June 22)
=2.0&chs=300x200&chxl=0:|02|03|04|05|06|07|08|09|10|&chtt=Afghanistan+US+June+Fatalities+by+Year.png


http://www.icasualties.org/OEF/ByMonth.aspx
 
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  • #166
rmalik said:
For the hundredth time we were told about Afghanistan's vast supply of natural resources amounting to over $1 trillion US.
The natural resources figure was a little optimistic - that's the value of the metals in the ground IF/WHEN you could get them to a market.
Mostly it's metal ores, these are big and heavy, great if you are shipping them direct to China from Canada or Australia a little tricky from a mountainous landlocked country.
Then refining these ores requires a large capacity stable supply of electricity.

And that assumes you aren't trying to extract them in a country with an ongoing civil war.
 
  • #167
I wonder, how they found these resources? It doesn't make sense to me that we wouldn't have known about this much earlier.

Does anyone know what about this particular find made it so illusive, and what methods were used to make the discovery.
 
  • #168
mheslep said:
This summer looks to be much harder than previous summers for troops in Afghanistan.

June 2010 - [STRIKE]41[/STRIKE] [STRIKE]43[/STRIKE] 47 US fatalities (as of June 25)
Sadly this June is now the worst month ever in the Afghanistan war for US fatalities, and I believe for coalition fatalities as a whole.
 
  • #169
jreelawg said:
I wonder, how they found these resources? It doesn't make sense to me that we wouldn't have known about this much earlier.

Does anyone know what about this particular find made it so illusive, and what methods were used to make the discovery.

It's not a find - it's a potential source.
At the moment it's equivalent to flying a satelite over Canada, noticing the Canadian shield and concluding: "Granite -> volcanic -> kimberlite -> diamonds" therefore there is a $1T of diamonds in Canada.

True but they are buried somewhere in 5million^3 km of rock. Going from a potential $T to an operating industry is the tricky bit - and involves lots of experts with little hammers crawling over the ground for 20 years.
 
  • #170
jreelawg said:
I wonder, how they found these resources? It doesn't make sense to me that we wouldn't have known about this much earlier.

Does anyone know what about this particular find made it so illusive, and what methods were used to make the discovery.
It's actually a number of finds. Various entities have been prospecting in Afghanistan, and it's only recently that the US has put the information together. BHP and Rio Tinto, and others have been looking into the area, and at deposits in Baluchistan. Baluchistan is better known, because that was more accessible. However, Baluchistan have proved problematic since there are groups who are trying to push greater autonomy from the rest of Pakistan.
 
  • #171
Petraeus says Taliban making 'overtures' for peace
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100928/wl_afp/afghanistanunrestustalibanpetraeus

Perhaps a sign that the tide is slowly turning.
 
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  • #172
Astronuc said:
Petraeus says Taliban making 'overtures' for peace
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100928/wl_afp/afghanistanunrestustalibanpetraeus

Perhaps a sign that the tide is slowly turning.

Hope so.

2010 US fatalities:
May: 34
June: 60
July: 65 (worst month of the Afghan conflict)
Aug: 55
Sept (as of the 27th): 37

UK (the south, Helmand province) also showing declines in fatalities, better than a correction for season suggests:
May: 8
June: 20
July: 16
Aug: 7
Sept: 6
 
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  • #173
The fatality numbers are good, but I wouldn't trust peace overtures by the Taliban. In the past, the Taliban have had no qualms about doing just that to regroup, only to resume fighting after a little rest.
 
  • #174
There was an interesting article today in New York Times about role of mercenaries in the wars in Iraq and Afganistan. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/24/world/middleeast/24contractors.html?_r=1&ref=world"
There are more private armies (corporations) in Iraq and Afganistan than actual military.
Contractors make up 54% of DOD’s workforce in Iraq and Afghanistan.
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/R40764.pdf"

I suppose if they are there, these corporations are making good money on these wars, despite being very inefficient.
Even now — with many contractors discredited for unjustified shootings and a lack of accountability amply described in the documents — the military cannot do without them. There are more contractors over all than actual members of the military serving in the worsening war in Afghanistan.

The archive, which describes many episodes never made public in such detail, shows the multitude of shortcomings with this new system: how a failure to coordinate among contractors, coalition forces and Iraqi troops, as well as a failure to enforce rules of engagement that bind the military, endangered civilians as well as the contractors themselves. The military was often outright hostile to contractors, for being amateurish, overpaid and, often, trigger-happy.

Contractors often shot with little discrimination — and few if any consequences — at unarmed Iraqi civilians, Iraqi security forces, American troops and even other contractors, stirring public outrage and undermining much of what the coalition forces were sent to accomplish.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/24/world/middleeast/24contractors.html?_r=1&ref=world"
 
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  • #175
Astronuc said:
Petraeus says Taliban making 'overtures' for peace
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100928/wl_afp/afghanistanunrestustalibanpetraeus

Perhaps a sign that the tide is slowly turning.

I don't know how I feel about this. As a strong non-interventionist, I believe the US should have been out of there yesterday. However, I feel like signing a treaty with the Taliban grants them an air of legitimacy that they don't deserve. I would be curious about what kind of concessions the US could possibly make that would appease them (or at least some of them, obviously there is a faction that doesn't understand "peace")
 
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  • #176
vici10 said:
There was an interesting article today in New York Times about role of mercenaries in the wars in Iraq and Afganistan. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/24/wo..._r=1&ref=world
There are more private armies (corporations) in Iraq and Afganistan than actual military.
I differ with your word usage here. I think you want "contractor". Corporations building kitchens or power plants are hardly "private armies", though some of them may be (e.g. Blackwater). In general a contractor does not a mercenary make.

mercenary:
-noun
a professional soldier hired to serve in a foreign army
 
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  • #177
Watched this talk by Greg Mortenson on C-Span/BookTV a couple of days ago.

http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/295805-1

If you've got less than 15 minutes to spare, watch from 18 min to 30 min.

And to help plug this, I'll copy the blurbs from Mortenson's latest book:

“ What Greg understands better than most—and what he practices more than anyone else I know—is the simple truth that all of us are better off when all of us have the opportunity to learn, especially our children. By helping them learn and grow, he’s shaping the very future of a region and giving hope to an entire generation.” —Admiral Mike Mullen, Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff

“ This week . . . I watched Greg Mortenson, the famed author of Three Cups of Tea, open one of his schools for girls in this remote Afghan village in the Hindu Kush mountains. I must say, after witnessing the delight in the faces of those little Afghan girls crowded three to a desk waiting to learn, I found it very hard to write, ‘Let’s just get out of here.’” —Thomas L. Friedman, The New York Times

“ Sometimes the acts of one individual can illuminate how to confront a foreign-policy dilemma more clearly than the prattle of politicians. Such is the case with Greg Mortenson, whose work gives insights into an essential element of fighting terrorism.” —Trudy Rubin, The Philadelphia Inquirer

“ Mortenson’s story serves as a reminder of the power of a good idea and the strength inherent in one person’s passionate determination to persevere against enormous obstacles.” —Marilyn Gardner, The Christian Science Monitor
 
  • #178
mheslep said:
I differ with your word usage here. I think you want "contractor". Corporations building kitchens or power plants are hardly "private armies", though some of them may be (e.g. Blackwater). In general a contractor does not a mercenary make.

mercenary:
-noun
a professional soldier hired to serve in a foreign army

As you have noticed, there are private military companies(contractors) in Iraq and Afganistan. (You mentioned Blackwater). Beside this contractors do also base support, security and construction. Without support there is no army. You missed another part of the definition of a mercenary: "motivated to take part in the hostilities essentially by the desire for private gain" rather than ideological or patriotic allegiance. Corporations satisfy this part well.

Regarding being foreign, according to CRS Report for Congress "Department of Defense Contractors in Iraq and Afghanistan: Background and Analysis", third-country nationals made up more than half of all contractor personnel.

35lcfu9.jpg


http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/R40764.pdf"
 
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  • #179
vici10 said:
As you have noticed, there are private military companies(contractors) in Iraq and Afganistan. (You mentioned Blackwater). Beside this contractors do also base support, security and construction. Without support there is no army. You missed another part of the definition of a mercenary: "motivated to take part in the hostilities essentially by the desire for private gain" rather than ideological or patriotic allegiance. Corporations satisfy this part well.
Clearly not, if the business is building a school or a power plant.
 
  • #180
Gokul43201 said:
Watched this talk by Greg Mortenson on C-Span/BookTV a couple of days ago.

http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/295805-1

If you've got less than 15 minutes to spare, watch from 18 min to 30 min.

And to help plug this, I'll copy the blurbs from Mortenson's latest book:
Thanks for that Gokul.
 
  • #181
Most of the "mercenaries" sent overseas perform security duties for VIPs and State Department personnel. Those duties are performed by contractors because those personnel don't require permanent active or reserve combat-zone security details because most of the time they're conducting their business they're not in a war zone. It makes sense to use contractors rather than actual soldiers because we need the soldiers to actually do the fighting, not waste their time guarding motorcades. The Armed Forces are stretched thin enough as is. These same guys can guard corporate VIPs or entertainers when they're in dangerous places and remain roughly permanently employed without there needing to be a war (though war is obviously lucrative for them).
 
  • #182
Good business! I bet these companies do not want the war to stop or that US will get out of these countries.
 
  • #183
mheslep said:
Clearly not, if the business is building a school or a power plant.
Nor is building an airplane (or even building a barracks on a base) "taking part in hostilities". Vici, you are misusing the word.
 
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  • #184
Regarding the question wether privite military contractors are mercenaries see the link below
http://www.law.nyu.edu/ecm_dlv2/groups/public/@nyu_law_website__journals__journal_of_international_law_and_politics/documents/documents/ecm_pro_058877.pdf"
 
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  • #185
vici10 said:
Regarding the question wether privite military contractors are mercenaries see the link below
Which refers to those armed contractors taking part in hostilities, e.g. Blackwater, a small, small part of the '54%' of DoD contractors you referred to up thread.
 
  • #186
vici10 said:
Regarding the question wether privite military contractors are mercenaries see the link below
http://www.law.nyu.edu/ecm_dlv2/groups/public/@nyu_law_website__journals__journal_of_international_law_and_politics/documents/documents/ecm_pro_058877.pdf"

I think it's debatable as to whether using mercenaries even for direct combat is a bad thing at all.

I think the only legitimate argument the paper makes against mercenaries is its "The Use of Private Contractors Undermines Democratic Checks on War-Making". It becomes possible for a country such as the US to hire a professional military force made up of members from various African nations to fight a war in Africa without the US public ever knowing about it. In other words, a government could conceivably conduct an entire war without its people knowing about it. That would be hard for a democratic government to do in practice since that would be a huge chunk of the budget that would have to disappear from view.

In general, the use of mercenaries has a long tradition and it's only in the last 100 years that the practice has fallen into disfavor.
 
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  • #187
Mheslep, please read more carefully. The article says that there is no definition of mercenary acceptable by most of countries. And therefore there is no agreement whether private military contractors should be considered mercenaries.

There is an ongoing debate over whether private military companies, and the private contractors that they employ, should be treated just like any other transnational industry, or whether they should be treated like mercenaries ...

There is article 47 of the First Additional Protocol of the Geneva Conventions regarding mercenaries, that is most widely accepted, although it is not endorsed by the United States. Privatization of the military is relatively new phenomena that started in 1980s and became huge with wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Many legal issues are not yet settled. Article says that some contractors can be considered mercenaries even under narrow definition of Geneva Convention (that was created before widespread privatization of the military). Since there is no proper definition of mercenaries, this term has a moral judgment attached to it. Without going into semantics of the word 'mercenary' it is important to notice that the war in Iraq would not be possible without private military contractors. There is a lot of literature written about private military contractors, but the most known and one of the first are the works of Peter Singer, senior fellow and director of the 21st Century Defense Initiative at Brookings.

If one concentrate just on one part of what private military contractors do in Iraq, those that are armed, then according to Singer:
And finally, there is the sector of firms, such as Blackwater, that has provided armed roles within the battle space. These firms do everything from help guard facilities and bases to escort high value individuals, as well as convoys, arguably the most dangerous job in all Iraq. Such firms are frequently described as “private security” or “bodyguards,” but they are a far cry from the rent a cops at the local mall or bodyguards for celebrities that the term is taken to mean. They use military training and weaponry, to carry out missions integral to the mission’s success, in the midst of a combat zone, against adversaries who are fellow combatants, as opposed to parking lot muggers or paparazzi stalkers of Angelina Jolie. In 2006, the Director of the Private Security Company Association of Iraq estimated that 181 of such “private security companies” were working in Iraq with “just over 48,000 employees.”
Source: P.W. Singer “Can’t Win With ‘Em, Can’t Go To War Without ‘Em: Private Military Contractors and Counterinsurgency”

Besides these armed forces military contractors do a lot of things that military does and can be thought as taking part in hostilities such as
During the invasion, contractors maintained and loaded many of the most sophisticated U.S. weapons systems, such as B-2 stealth bombers and Apache helicopters. They even helped operate combat systems such as the Army’s Patriot missile batteries and the Navy’s Aegis missile-defense system.
Source: P.W. Singer “Can’t Win With ‘Em, Can’t Go To War Without ‘Em: Private Military Contractors and Counterinsurgency”

So I do not know on what mheslep bases his conclusion about “a small, small part” of armed contractors. The problem is that in reality no one really knows the exact number of contractors since Pentagon does not even track the number of contractors working for it in Iraq, much less their casualties. According to survey of contractors, at least 20% are in security. The problem is that many big contractors were not included in this survey.

Some hint about number of armed contractors and their participation in hostilities can give the death toll among contractors. According to Singer:
If the gradual death toll among American troops threatened to slowly wear down public support, con-
tractor casualties were not counted in official death tolls and had no impact on these ratings. By one
count, as of July 2007, over 1,000 contractors have been killed in Iraq, and another 13,000 wounded
(again the data is patchy here, with the only reliable source being insurance claims made by contractors’ employers and then reported to the U.S. Department of Labor).5 Since the “Surge” started in January 2007 (this was the second wave of increased troop deployments, focused on the civil war), these numbers have accelerated; contractors have been killed at a rate of 9 a week. These figures mean that the private military industry has suffered more losses in Iraq than the rest of the coalition of allied nations combined. The losses are also far more than any single U.S. Army division has experienced.
Source: P.W. Singer “Can’t Win With ‘Em, Can’t Go To War Without ‘Em: Private Military Contractors and Counterinsurgency”

One of the reasons why private military contractors are used (except enrichment of some private corporations) is that their use allows operations, that might be otherwise politically impossible. The US government could send more troops to Iraq, instead of sending contractors, but this would create “massive outcry amongst the public”. There was no outcry when contractors were called up and deployed, or even killed. Death toll of contractors is not included in official death toll, public often does not know about them, besides many of them are not American. It creates perception of less human cost of the war.

Another problem with such contractors is that they are above the law (due to unclear legal status, they are not civilians and they are not also American soldiers). For example,
For example, it was reported that 100% of the translators and up to 50% of the interrogators at the Abu
Ghraib prison were private contractors from the Titan and CACI firms respectively. The U.S. Army
found that contractors were involved in 36% of the proven abuse incidents from 2003-2004 and identi-
fied 6 particular employees as being culpable in the abuses.20 However, while the enlisted U.S. Army soldiers involved in the Abu Ghraib abuse were properly court martialed for their crimes, three years later, not one of the private contractors named in the U.S. Army investigation reports has been charged, prosecuted, or punished. […]

In another incident in 2005, armed contractors from the Zapata firm were detained by U.S. forces, who
claimed they saw the private soldiers indiscriminately firing not only at Iraqi civilians, but also US Marines. Again, they were not charged, as the legal issues could not be squared .
Source: P.W. Singer “Can’t Win With ‘Em, Can’t Go To War Without ‘Em: Private Military Contractors and Counterinsurgency”


These are just few examples that shows that private contractors above the law. There are many others. The most famous is of Blackwater. Since it is the most famous I will not go into the details, only a small quote:
Journalist Robert Young Pelton described his month spent embedded with Blackwater contractors in
Baghdad. “They’re famous for being very aggressive. They use their machine guns like car horns.”
Source: P.W. Singer ““Can’t Win With ‘Em, Can’t Go To War Without ‘Em: Private Military Contractors and Counterinsurgency”


The hint how many of such accidents happens can give the following quote:
As far back as 2005, for example, Brigadier General Karl Horst, deputy commander of the US 3rd Infantry Division (responsible for security in the Baghdad area at the time) tried to keep track of contractor shootings in his sector. Over the course of two months, he found twelve shootings that resulted in at least six Iraqi civilian deaths and three more wounded. Horst tellingly put it, “These guys run loose in this country and do stupid stuff. There’s no authority over them, so you can’t come down on them hard when they escalate force. They shoot people, and someone else has to deal with the aftermath.”
Source: P.W. Singer “Can’t Win With ‘Em, Can’t Go To War Without ‘Em: Private Military Contractors and Counterinsurgency”

In the 3 years that followed that CPA [Coalition Provisional Authority] order, not one contractor operating in Iraq was prosecuted or convicted for any crime involving an Iraqi victim or any kind of conduct in the battle space.
Source: P.W. Singer “Can’t Win With ‘Em, Can’t Go To War Without ‘Em: Private Military Contractors and Counterinsurgency”


One can close one's eyes and pretend that there is only “a small, small” number of private military contractors involved in hostilities but it would be either very naïve or disingenuous. The fact that they are motivated by private gain and the fact that there is no authority over them (at least in practical terms) except their employer create very dangerous situations.

All the quotes of Singer are from “Can’t Win With ‘Em, Can’t Go To War Without ‘Em: Private Military Contractors and Counterinsurgency”
http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/Files/rc/papers/2007/0927militarycontractors/0927militarycontractors.pdf"
 
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  • #188
vici10 said:
Privatization of the military is relatively new phenomena that started in 1980s and became huge with wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Many legal issues are not yet settled. Article says that some contractors can be considered mercenaries even under narrow definition of Geneva Convention (that was created before widespread privatization of the military). Since there is no proper definition of mercenaries, this term has a moral judgment attached to it. Without going into semantics of the word 'mercenary' it is important to notice that the war in Iraq would not be possible without private military contractors. There is a lot of literature written about private military contractors, but the most known and one of the first are the works of Peter Singer, senior fellow and director of the 21st Century Defense Initiative at Brookings.

Another problem with such contractors is that they are above the law (due to unclear legal status, they are not civilians and they are not also American soldiers). For example,

I only have one issue with the accuracy of your post and that's that privatization started in the 1980's. Actually, it stopped after World War II (for the US, anyway) and restarted in the 80's.

Claire Chenault's Flying Tigers in China just prior to the US entering World War II and in the very early days of US participation of WWII is one example. An example where your mercenaries were considered heroes, no less.

Contractors being above the law is a problem in the case of how the US has used contractors in Iraq. It's not a problem that's inherent to using mercenaries in general.

And in the case of Abu Graib, one should look at how this occurred in the first place. The abused prisoners were most likely of no intelligence value at all, so the US subcontracted out the interrogations to low cost, poorly trained interrogators and assigned National Guard members as the prison guards (with National Guard members usually having less thorough training than active duty troops). If the value of interrogating these folks was so small that it wasn't worth the investment to do it properly, then maybe it wasn't worth doing at all. (Detainees that might have legitimate intelligence value were interrogated by professional CIA personnel, not subcontracted out to the lowest bidder).

I think you have a legitimate point that having to use military personnel to do the interrogations could have created enough of a manpower squeeze that management would have exercised better judgement in how they used that manpower. Considering that poor judgement plagued the entire Bush administration when it came to pursuing the Iraq war, I think it's a little presumptive to assume tighter manpower constraints would have prevented Abu Graib (heck, the administration just ignored generals that said we weren't assigning enough personnel for the job right from the beginning).

In other words, inept leaders will yield bad results regardless of what the rules of war are.
 
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  • #190
vici10 said:
The documentary film "Iraq for Sale: The War Profiteers" about privite military contractors in Iraq by Robert Greenwald:
Before going off to watch an ~hour of movie, how would you characterize Greenwald's material as a source of information? An unbiased observer with a track record of including facts not convenient for his story? Or a hard left, agenda driven Michael Moore wannabe?
 
  • #191
I'd be interested in any stats that can be found on breakdown (say, soldier/security guard/noncombat) of contractors in Iraq. On its face, the large number of contractors means nothing to me, but if I learned that a third were security guards and a third were doing actual military-style fighting I'd feel differently.

A similar breakdown of the US forces would be useful for comparison, as well.
 
  • #192
vici10 said:
Mheslep, please read more carefully. The article says that there is no definition of mercenary acceptable by most of countries. And therefore there is no agreement whether private military contractors should be considered mercenaries.
Well if you consider the term mercenary hopelessly ambiguous (I don't) then is the above a retraction of your usage of the term in post #175?
 
  • #193
CRGreathouse said:
I'd be interested in any stats that can be found on breakdown (say, soldier/security guard/noncombat) of contractors in Iraq. On its face, the large number of contractors means nothing to me, but if I learned that a third were security guards and a third were doing actual military-style fighting I'd feel differently.

A similar breakdown of the US forces would be useful for comparison, as well.

Then you should read previous posts more carefully, you will find some information in the links provided. Although the similar breakdown of support vs combat of US forces in US, I would be interested to know too.
 
  • #194
mheslep said:
Well if you consider the term mercenary hopelessly ambiguous (I don't) then is the above a retraction of your usage of the term in post #175?

The fact that there is no legal definition of the mercenary that most countries would agree on, does not mean that phenomena does not exist. The purpose of my post was to bring attention to a phenomena of widespread privatization of the military that is largly ignored. In this multipaged thread there was a lot of discussion, but no one seems to mention a role of contractors.
 
  • #195
It is only anecdotal, but I have heard complaint from friends who have served overseas that the contractors (especially blackwater) are generally poorly educated and would not pass the requirements necessary for the regular military.
 
  • #196
vici10 said:
In this multipaged thread there was a lot of discussion, but no one seems to mention a role of contractors.
Could it be because this thread is supposed to be about progress in Afghanistan, and the "role of contractors" is at best tangentially relevant?
 
  • #197
Galteeth said:
It is only anecdotal, but I have heard complaint from friends who have served overseas that the contractors (especially blackwater) are generally poorly educated and would not pass the requirements necessary for the regular military.

And I've heard they're mostly ex-military. Our anecdotes conflict, imagine that.
 
  • #198
vici10 said:
Then you should read previous posts more carefully, you will find some information in the links provided.

Sorry, watching > 1 hour of video plus a few dozen links isn't worth my time. If someone was willing to bring stats into the thread so everyone could examine the figures, that might be.
 
  • #199
I guess it's a good thing the the "contractors" aren't in charge of the operation in Yemen.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39963767

"Joint U.S.-Yemeni security operations in the past year have failed to kill or capture AQAP's top leadership.

'Dry run'?
In a fresh development over the interception of the bombs, it was reported that American intelligence officials tracked several shipments of household goods from Yemen to Chicago in September and considered that the parcels might be a "dry run" for a militant attack.

Intelligence officials believe the tracking of the shipments may have been used to plan the route and timing for two parcel bombs discovered on U.S.-bound planes in Dubai and London.

"That was one scenario that was considered," an official told The New York Times.

The "dry run" involved a carton of household goods including books, religious literature, and a computer disk, but no explosives, shipped from Yemen to Chicago, the report said."
 
  • #200
Galteeth said:
It is only anecdotal, but I have heard complaint from friends who have served overseas that the contractors (especially blackwater) are generally poorly educated and would not pass the requirements necessary for the regular military.

Most of the contractors are skilled laborers (plumbers and carpenters and what not). I have no idea what their education level is, but I know that the current incarnation of Blackwater (now called Xe) has a hiring requirement for anyone wishing to work in security of at least five years military service in a special operations unit. I don't know if they've always had this requirement, but the only people I personally know that ever worked for Blackwater were all ex-special ops (granted, that's only two people).
 

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