# Protons and electromagnetic attraction in the LHC?

1. Aug 5, 2015

### godzenon

As protons go faster and fast in the LHC they have a greater angular momentum (that's not at all the right term) to go around in circles faster and faster

as they reach near the speed of light that greater inward attraction towards the magnet to rotate around in the LHC in a circular pattern, I assume that is caused by increased power to the magnets etc as the protons move faster and faster they give it more current and more juice, but is it also true as I suspect that protons are more susceptible to magnetic (i guess electromagnetic) forces as they go faster and faster near light speed? So it's not merely that they have a greater speed and angular momentum from the increased power to the magnets but then also the fact that protons feel more push/pull from magnetic forces as they travel really fast?

Sorry my wording is off, i'm tired

Also too more questions thanks, these are easy but maybe off topic
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suppose you have 3 metal iron rods a,b, and c, all exactly the same until you magnetize a and b

would a and b aligned north to south have a greater attraction than a and c aligned the exact same way?
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Is it possible photons can be affected by magnetism but because they are moving too fast and our magnets are so weak we just haven't noticed?

thanks

2. Aug 6, 2015

### Allen Beers

Photons have a neutral electric charge, and therefore do not have a magnetic field. Also, what your thinking of is orbital angular momentum. As far as i know, they do not feel greater push/pull from the magnets as their speed increases.

3. Aug 6, 2015

### Orodruin

Staff Emeritus
The LHC does not have one magnet in the center, it has a large number of superconducting magnets along the beamline in order to create the magnetic field necessary to bend the protons.

What do you mean by this? The magnetic force will increase due to the increasing velocity, this is not due to protons being more susceptible but due to how the Lorentz force works. However, moving near the speed of light, the inertia of the protons increase as well, leading to less acceleration for the same magnetic field. The acceleration required is given by $a = v^2/r$, where $v$ is the velocity and $r$ the bending radius.

Please stick to one topic per post. Including several will only serve to mix the discussions and make it impossible to follow.

4. Aug 6, 2015

### Allen Beers

He did in his third question.

5. Aug 6, 2015

### ChrisVer

Photons can "interact" with the EM field... In fact that is how a photon can create an electron/positron pair within a matterial...

6. Aug 6, 2015

### godzenon

Couldn't you say that's the same thing in a matter of speaking?

Yeah but that should not nearly be as effective as a damper when compared to the increase in magnetic force caused by Lorentz force

so it's like if the protons are moving 99% the speed of light compared to the magnets accelerating them, they will experience a 7x increase in velocity give or take?

meh, yeah but that's just if they happen to encounter, it just seems off to me that photons aren't affected by magnetic fields, i know people say photon exchange causes magnetic or electromagnetic fields, but that's still not something i take as fact

thanks for input and help

also i guess i will ask my middle question somewhere else if no one answers here, i just thought it would take up space for such a small question

7. Aug 6, 2015

### Staff: Mentor

Not only that, the questions at the end of the original post don't have to do with "High Energy, Nuclear and Particle" physics at all. You're much more likely to get suitable responses in our "General Physics" forum which probably has more people watching it.

8. Aug 6, 2015

### Staff: Mentor

No. The force is proportional to velocity. At rest the magnetic field doesn't lead to a force, so you cannot compute a ratio.
The protons are injected into the LHC at a speed of roughly 99.999% the speed of light, increasing this to 99.999999% (or something like that) increases the force just by about 0.001%. The force has to increase much more due to the increased gamma factor, so the magnets have to be ramped up while the protons are accelerated.

9. Aug 6, 2015

### godzenon

Hm thanks that answers my main question, and i'll probably ask the Iron rod question in a different section, I guess i should've assumed it was proportional because that makes sense, i should have worded it better when i first wrote it

I'm willing to bet that there's a difference depending on how you accelerate the proton, if you built a mini-rocket shuttle and accelerated the proton from 1% to 99% speed of light with jet-fuel somehow, I'm guessing that because you accelerated without a magnet or a charge and you did it physically, you wouldn't have the increased influence from the magnet to the proton from the proton's increased 99% velocity, (assuming the proton had the mini-rocket disappear and was somehow in the LHC)

I mean, normally velocity has time dilation that weakens electromagnetic forces, i'm guessing that the proton's quarks rotate internally at very fast speeds when accelerated to 99% the speed of light magnetically, and when accelerated physically like with a very fast baseball bat or mini-rocket shuttle the proton's quarks would barely rotate and instead it would be 1 directional speed

either that or it's completely the opposite

Last edited: Aug 6, 2015
10. Aug 6, 2015

### Staff: Mentor

It does not matter how a proton is accelerated, its history is irrelevant. Actually, you don't even have to accelerate the proton, you could accelerate the whole LHC towards a proton (in theory). Velocity is relative, there is no absolute motion.
It does not. It can change the effect on particles, but it does not always make things weaker.
That does not make sense at all.
The protons get accelerated, their internal structure stays the same.

11. Aug 6, 2015

### godzenon

Well time dilation makes things move slower, the LHC and the proton are not relative, so it doesn't apply, but for single objects like the proton it would (normally)

if you have proton and an electron a meter apart with the same velocity moving relatively at 99.9999999% the speed of light their attraction would be significantly less, than the same pair moving relatively at 67% the speed of light

I edited what i wrote to write it a little more clearly for the rocket part of it, i think you got it anyway tho

it's just my little theory, it could be wrong, the quarks must be moving around in the proton, i'm just guessing that changes as to how fast or slow the quarks move around when they're being accelerated by magnetism, and if the quarks rotate around faster they have greater influence by magnetic fields, or it could be if they move around in the proton slower they have greater influence, i don't know which is which, i've got lots of little theories

12. Aug 6, 2015

### Orodruin

Staff Emeritus
Do note that the posting of such "little theories" is against the rules of Physics Forums. You are welcome to ask questions about mainstream physics, but leave your personal theories out of it. It is not the reason the rest of us are here, the reasons why this is so are explained in the guidelines.

13. Aug 6, 2015

### godzenon

You're right, i got what i wanted out of this thread and i'm grateful, i realize people don't like my theories because they're dumb etc.

14. Aug 6, 2015

### Orodruin

Staff Emeritus
It is not mainly about personal theories being dumb per se (although many tend to be directly in violation with observations or simply non-predictive). It is about an anonymous internet forum being the wrong place for the scientific process in evaluating new ideas.

15. Aug 6, 2015

### ChrisVer

leaving aside the personal theories etc, try giving yourself an explanation for: why would you look at the quark structure of the proton, when you are accelerating the proton? In the proton's rest frame, its internal structure is the same.
That's even the case in classical mechanics :why would you look at the air atoms in a box when you push the box?