Question about Intellectual Property and Ideas (in a job as well)?

[MissSilvy]

Forgive me if this sounds a little uninformed but in the world of academia or engineering or work and what-have-you, how does intellectual property? When a company hires you to design something, say a motor, do they own all work that you produce in that given time? What about if I work on something else and patent it in the time I am employed by that company (related or unrelated to that project)? Someone told me that if you're a physicist and you're employed by a research group, every idea you have belongs to them even if you do it in your spare time and if you're an engineer then you can't do consulting on the side. It seems like a strange concept but then again I am wet behind the ears so maybe this is de rigeur. If anyone could clarify this for me I'd greatly appreciate it.

 

[humanino]

Someone told me that if you're a physicist and you're employed by a research group, every idea you have belongs to them even if you do it in your spare time

This is not true. Nobody would sign such a contract !

For what I can say, when you are a physicist you post your article on the arXiv as soon as you submit it for publication (except some journal which still refuse this system, but in particle physics we're rather open with that).

 

[Cyrus]

This is not true. Nobody would sign such a contract !

For what I can say, when you are a physicist you post your article on the arXiv as soon as you submit it for publication (except some journal which still refuse this system, but in particle physics we're rather open with that).

Yes it is true.

 

[humanino]

Yes it is true.

Do you know of a physicist employed by a research group whose cooking ideas and musical composition would not belong to himself ? I personally know of a physicist who is publishing not under his employer's lab name for some research he does on his own during evening and week ends ! It is pretty rare actually.

Finally, somebody who would sign such a contract would probably not have very valuable ideas in general anyway.

 

[russ_watters]

It's true of engineers too - and no, it's not cooking ideas, just ideas related to the job. It isn't a matter of company policy, it's the law.

You can google it: http://www.utsystem.edu/ogc/intellectualproperty/ippol.htm

 

[LowlyPion]

Forgive me if this sounds a little uninformed but in the world of academia or engineering or work and what-have-you, how does intellectual property? When a company hires you to design something, say a motor, do they own all work that you produce in that given time? What about if I work on something else and patent it in the time I am employed by that company (related or unrelated to that project)? Someone told me that if you're a physicist and you're employed by a research group, every idea you have belongs to them even if you do it in your spare time and if you're an engineer then you can't do consulting on the side. It seems like a strange concept but then again I am wet behind the ears so maybe this is de rigeur. If anyone could clarify this for me I'd greatly appreciate it.

It is not uncommon to require technical contributors to assign their commercial rights to intellectual property to the hand that pays you. With jobs contractions companies have more leverage.

You can expect that at a minimum any development you do specifically on a project belongs to the company. If they choose to patent it, they may put your name on it, but they get the license, not you unless previously agreed on.

If you develop cold fusion in the garage on weekends while you are employed, you might want to be sure you are no longer employed by the company when you choose to disclose it for the purpose of a patent. If it is unrelated to the business of your employer, then you likely have no problem once you are clear. If however this research is also something your employer is pursuing as well, the burden may be on you to demonstrate your "inspiration" was after leaving the employ and the longer the time later the better.

 

[humanino]

related to the job.

the OP clearly said

if I work on something else and patent it

 

[russ_watters]

the OP clearly said

... Read the rest of the sentence, including what is in parenthases:

related or unrelated to that project

...and...

and if you're an engineer then you can't do consulting on the side.

...also presumably related.

 

[humanino]

Well I don't know exactly what the OP meant but it's quite obvious to me. Indeed, if you get an idea during the week end that was inspired to you by a discussion with a co-worker during the week, it would not be fair if you could patent it. Where the line is drawn is a matter of common sense. But I never heard of a problematic situation in high energy physics research. Researchers in fundamental science are not in it for the money anyway !

 

[Jang Jin Hong]

If that means patent which can be used in industy,
It will be very difficult to own your idea.

But if that is prior right about scientific idea.
It is possible to protect your idea.
following is my advice.

1. If you are graduate student, do not consult your idea with professor.
They can steal your idea. Submit directly to journal.

2. If you are amateur scientist, do not post to Independent Research forum in
Physicsforums at the first stage of publication, and do not post to moderated usenet group
at the first stage of publication.
Before that kind of advertisement,
make your prior right safe, such as self book publishing.

3. Arxiv endorsement is only a license for apprentice.
If you are not apprentice of master, It will be very difficult to be endorsed.
Arxiv is only a electronic data, that can be vapored or changed.
Book publishing is most clear safe and time enduring method to protect your idea.

 

[humanino]

If you are not apprentice of master, It will be very difficult to be endorsed.

If you are an amateur, the question does not really apply to you.

 

[Jang Jin Hong]

If you are an amateur, the question does not really apply to you.

Yes, that can not be applied to me now.
but that can be applied to graduate students or undergraduate students.

 

[Jang Jin Hong]

If you want to protect your scientific idea,
you must become a belligerent and distrustful person.
That make you a unpleasant one to others,

But I am generous to that kind of persons,
because I understand their anxiety.

 

[LowlyPion]

As an undergraduate or graduate student anything you work out on your own is yours, subject of course to others not poaching it as noted.

That is of course in the case where you are paying your tuition. You are the one there to learn and what you learn and apply then would be yours since the university is your resource, in the same sense that say a library would be a resource if you went there to study a subject that you decided to patent.

For graduate research associates though, where grants are funding research for instance and where you may be getting tuition reimbursement for your work that advances the project that is funded, then you and the university might develop an issue about ownership of commercial rights that might flow from your work.

 

[cristo]

1. If you are graduate student, do not consult your idea with professor.
They can steal your idea. Submit directly to journal.

You're kidding, right? Such behaviour is not conducive to a good working relationship between a student and supervisor.

2. If you are amateur scientist, do not post to Independent Research forum in
Physicsforums at the first stage of publication, and do not post to moderated usenet group
at the first stage of publication.
Before that kind of advertisement,
make your prior right safe, such as self book publishing.

3. Arxiv endorsement is only a license for apprentice.
If you are not apprentice of master, It will be very difficult to be endorsed.
Arxiv is only a electronic data, that can be vapored or changed.
Book publishing is most clear safe and time enduring method to protect your idea.

Sorry, but such 'advice' sounds like the advice of a crackpot. 'Self book publishing' is not the way scientific work is communicated.

 

[Jang Jin Hong]

You're kidding, right? Such behaviour is not conducive to a good working relationship between a student and supervisor..

No, I am not kidding.

Sorry, but such 'advice' sounds like the advice of a crackpot. 'Self book publishing' is not the way scientific work is communicated.

Yes, I am a crank.
I proudly declare myself as a crank.
Book publishing is my right,
nobody can not block my publishing,
nobody can not steal my prior right.

If you are too sensitive to be called as a crank,
your prior right will be in danger.

 

[cristo]

Yes, I am a crank.

I think this is enough to disregard any of your 'advice.'

 

[Jang Jin Hong]

I think this is enough to disregard any of your 'advice.'

Almost every theorists are cranks.
99.9 % articles in mathematical physics journals are "not even wrong" or "crack pot".

 

[russ_watters]

No, almost every theorist works inside the scientific process. People who work outside the scientific process are cranks and not theorists. The two are mutually exclusive by definition. No crank has ever made a major contribution to the body of scientific knowlege.

 

[Jang Jin Hong]

No, almost every theorist works inside the scientific process. People who work outside the scientific process are cranks and not theorists. The two are mutually exclusive by definition. No crank has ever made a major contribution to the body of scientific knowlege.

You must see reality.
In real world, the word "crank" is synonym of amateur theorist.
I am amateur theorist, so I am a crank.

 

[Astronuc]

Forgive me if this sounds a little uninformed but in the world of academia or engineering or work and what-have-you, how does intellectual property? When a company hires you to design something, say a motor, do they own all work that you produce in that given time? What about if I work on something else and patent it in the time I am employed by that company (related or unrelated to that project)? Someone told me that if you're a physicist and you're employed by a research group, every idea you have belongs to them even if you do it in your spare time and if you're an engineer then you can't do consulting on the side. It seems like a strange concept but then again I am wet behind the ears so maybe this is de rigeur. If anyone could clarify this for me I'd greatly appreciate it.

When I was hired, I signed a comprehensive employment contract, and it included a section on intellectual property. The initial contract reserved rights to all scientific and technical ideas, theories, . . . . I had that revised to only ideas directly related to work.

My company expected me to be working after hours on ideas to help grow the company or introduce new products to the clientele. That's the nature of salaried work.

 

[brewnog]

My employer owns all my ideas related to their business (rather than my work). I only work on engines, but my employer has the rights to any ideas I have about construction machinery, gearboxes, generators, mining equipment or financial processes, whether I develop them in my own time or not.

Fair? Debatable. Common sense? Definitely not. But it's a term of my employment to be honoured.

 

[humanino]

Fair? Debatable. Common sense? Definitely not. But it's a term of my employment to be honoured.

I agree with you, I was only talking about high energy physics research when I said common sense. I am unfamiliar with professional policies outside this community.

At the lab, we have a training which says we are subject to "termination" if we (for instance) ship a bad hard drive for replacement without appropriate authorisation. That is part of the program to protect intellectual property. I hope they meant "employement termination" and not "employee termination".

 

[Averagesupernova]

I worked for a test equipment manufacturer who made me sign an agreement that whatever idea I came up with that was related to electronic test equipment belonged to them. One of my co-workers refused to sign it and left the company. He had already started a company that manufactured automotive electronics and technically one could say the 2 companies were close enough related that what my coworker had done he would stand to lose. Interestingly enough, I later went to work for him and had to sign the same agreement.

 

[LowlyPion]

Generally though employers are more than generous in assigning credit to those on their staff that develop the ideas that may become patentable, carrying their names to the patent and so forth, maybe even a bonus if it means real savings and competitive advantage. This becomes a valuable future resume asset to the employee, as well as a certain interest in the company wanting to keep you inventing on their behalf. Job security isn't that bad a deal. As well they like being able to promote the idea to investors about the creativeness of the technical staff, in seeking future funding and promoting the value of their stock.

If you are really clever, and manage to harvest a Nobel from your cleverness, that's yours. So's the award money.

 

[MissSilvy]

I realize that most engineering jobs are salaried work but even stuff done in your spare time belongs to the company? Why not just everything you produce after you leave the company, since without their guiding hand you probably would've never had another original idea. At least you can edit it out of the contract in most cases, but this seems entirely unfair. I suppose that consulting on the weekends is also frowned upon?

 

[Astronuc]

I realize that most engineering jobs are salaried work but even stuff done in your spare time belongs to the company?

Only if it relates to the work or services provided by the employer.

In my case, if I developed something in an unrelated area, e.g. solar energy, then I would retain rights to that work, as long as I didn't use company resources.

I suppose that consulting on the weekends is also frowned upon?

Usually, yes. When one is employed, one is supposed to be working on behalf of one's employer, especially if the work one does on the weekend is what one would normally do during the week.

If it's a completely different area outside of one's work in the company or what the company does, that's a different matter.

 

[brewnog]

I realize that most engineering jobs are salaried work but even stuff done in your spare time belongs to the company?

If it's something which could affect the company (either positive if used for the company, or negative if sold to a competitor), yes.

At least you can edit it out of the contract in most cases, but this seems entirely unfair.

I wasn't able to edit the term out of my contract. I thought it was a little unfair, but then I'm grateful for my job, and know that I will receive credit for any patents I earn for the company, whether or not I've developed them during my own time.

I suppose that consulting on the weekends is also frowned upon?

Not just frowned upon, prohibited by contract. In my case, I could work as a consultant in a field which my employer has no relation to, but this isn't where my expertise is.

I'm not paid a salary to work 37 hours a week, I'm paid a salary to be an employee of the company, and that means acting in its best interests regardless of what day of the week it is.

 

[LowlyPion]

I suppose that consulting on the weekends is also frowned upon?

If it's in an area that directly relates to the work you do for the company, then yes. And most especially if it would be for any party that might be in competition with the company. You might want to consider being a consultant to the company and for others if you think there is a more widely marketable skill. The company may even be willing if you offer unique design skills in fact.

Also if you do say customer service and arrange to train the company's customers privately for extra cash, you would want to be sure to get permission. Most companies are open minded, and mostly interested in what advances their economic interests and if they don't offer formal training might be agreeable. But if they offer training then you can be sure that it's no.

In general you might consider that if you are on salary the company at least will think it has a claim to all your work.

 

[mgb_phys]

Many people have contracts that state any outside ideas belong to the employer.
Like any contract what it means gets decided in court. The problem is that although a court might decide that if you are an engineer and take wedding photographs at the weekend these don't count - they might not understand more technical stuff.
If you are a database programmer at work and do web design at home a non-technical audience might decide these are both computers and so is part of your day job.

Educational institutions are even trickier. in UK universities it was ruled that PhD students are NOT employees. This was after an accident at Sussex where a student decided to heat benzene with a bunsen burner and blew himself up, the court ruled he should have been supervised and that he had the same health and safety status as a visiting member of the public!
Similairly universities have tried to claim that post-docs are not employees to get around limits on contract length and redundancy.
The other side of this is that my old uni has decided that it owns the IP of any idea from a student - how this will play in court if the students aren't employees is undecided.

 

[rootX]

Here's what my engineering code of ethics says:

A practitioner shall act in professional engineering matters for each employer as a faithful agent or trustee and shall regard as confidential information obtained ... bla bla bla

A practitioner must disclose immediately to the practitioner's client any interest direct or indirect that might considered as prejudicial in any way to the ... bla bla bla

And, I think it comes under ethics of code not under personal misconduct.

You might want to review your engineering code of ethics etc. I guess it is the engineering regulating bodies that punish you, not the court?

 

[gravenewworld]

You can't have conflicts of interest. Say you are an engineer that builds engines for a company. You can't, on your own free time, design another engine and try to patent it and have it compete with your company's engine. Your company could sue the pants off you.

 

[brewnog]

You can't have conflicts of interest. Say you are an engineer that builds engines for a company. You can't, on your own free time, design another engine and try to patent it and have it compete with your company's engine. Your company could sue the pants off you.

This was only half of my point. The situation above is my situation. However, I can't, in my own free time, design anything at all which is related to anything my company produces (machinery, vehicles, tools, even financial products), even though I only work on engines.

 

[MissSilvy]

It's pretty well-known that engineering companies bemoan the quality and skills of fresh graduates, saying that they have no idea how things work and can't design, etc. but it is also funny that they expect new graduates who can preform like experienced professionals for the same, low starting salary.

I am not a person who takes a job and then does the minimum amount or work for a paycheck. I work and I work very well, so it's highly distasteful that I have no chance to better my career independently of the company. For a sum of $50,000 a year they own everything I make and every thought I have? Please, this is lunacy.

 

[LowlyPion]

For a sum of $50,000 a year they own everything I make and every thought I have? Please, this is lunacy.

I think that is a little extreme, primarily because it isn't really true.

Insofar as you are solving their problems and they are paying you, they do rightly expect, if you come up with a good idea that could improve their processes, that it would be theirs. You can't really disagree with that. Stumbling on a clever way to gain a process advantage wouldn't be fair for you to go off and sell to a competitor for instance, or even not to disclose to the company in hopes of letting a license to collect over and above what they are already paying you.

However if you were writing a book about herpetology as a hobby, which had nothing to do with designing pistons or even motors or even assembly line efficiencies, and you went to publish it, then of course they would have no interest. There is a reasonableness standard.

 

[MissSilvy]

I'm not indignant that I can't steal from companies, which selling a product that they hired you to make would be (like selling a new motor design to a competitor when you, in fact, work on that company's motors) but I'm a little mad that if I was a motor engineer with an interest in building cars or robots and I came up with something I wanted to market, I couldn't. I was under the impression that when a company hires you, it is to do a specific function, like improving factory efficiency or something, and anything you come up with in that area belongs to them.

 

[LowlyPion]

I'm not indignant that I can't steal from companies, which selling a product that they hired you to make would be (like selling a new motor design to a competitor when you, in fact, work on that company's motors) but I'm a little mad that if I was a motor engineer with an interest in building cars or robots and I came up with something I wanted to market, I couldn't. I was under the impression that when a company hires you, it is to do a specific function, like improving factory efficiency or something, and anything you come up with in that area belongs to them.

When they hire you for your creativity that's a bit different than hiring you as say a receptionist. There of course you can certainly be expected to be able to answer your phone at home.

But creativity is different. It involves inspiration, innovative leaps, making something that maybe hasn't been thought of before, seeing things in a different way, ... etc. And if that's what they are paying you for, they have some expectation that they won't have to be disadvantaged if you come up with something new that may just be useful to them. I think you will find that if you come up with something that is not practical to them they will likely give you a waiver if you bother to ask.

 

[Proton Soup]

i think the answer is pretty clear. if there is no incentive to innovate, then don't provide any innovations. do your job and go home.

 

[russ_watters]

It's pretty well-known that engineering companies bemoan the quality and skills of fresh graduates, saying that they have no idea how things work and can't design, etc. but it is also funny that they expect new graduates who can preform like experienced professionals for the same, low starting salary.

I am not a person who takes a job and then does the minimum amount or work for a paycheck. I work and I work very well, so it's highly distasteful that I have no chance to better my career independently of the company. For a sum of $50,000 a year they own everything I make and every thought I have? Please, this is lunacy.

I'm not clear from that whether you are out of school or not, but when you get out of school, you have nothing whatsoever with which to prove how much you are worth, so you get the standard rate. But people who are good are generally recognized relatively quickly and rewarded for it. There is nothing wrong, ironic, etc. about how that works. It's a reality that makes a lot of sense.

 

[D H]

This is not true. Nobody would sign such a contract !

For almost every employer in the US (be it a corporation, non-profit, university, or a branch of the government), candidate employees who refuse to sign such a contract cease to be candidate employees. Everyone signs such a contract.

It's true of engineers too - and no, it's not cooking ideas, just ideas related to the job. It isn't a matter of company policy, it's the law.

You can google it: http://www.utsystem.edu/ogc/intellectualproperty/ippol.htm

That's not the law -- it is indeed a matter of company policy. Patent law is pretty clear that a patent is created by individuals, not corporations. The specific example cited in your post is the University of Texas' Intellectual Property Policy, which must be signed, dated, and witnessed. In other words, it is a contract. Once properly signed it becomes legally binding. A contract would not be needed if the law already said that IP belongs to the employer.

 

[LowlyPion]

i think the answer is pretty clear. if there is no incentive to innovate, then don't provide any innovations. do your job and go home.

You can take that approach. But then again you are dead ending yourself. If your only motive is in getting compensated and you get nothing from solving problems (you know like job security, the opportunity to solve more problems) then that's your choice. It also makes you less valuable to your current employer and less attractive to a future employer. Getting laid off without a patent to your name for instance, is maybe not as good as remaining employed and being valued and getting raises and maybe even turning down opportunities for instance.

On the other hand this is based on thinking you enjoy the work. If you don't enjoy technical or creative contribution except for the money, then maybe think about doing something you do enjoy?

 

[Proton Soup]

You can take that approach. But then again you are dead ending yourself. If your only motive is in getting compensated and you get nothing from solving problems (you know like job security, the opportunity to solve more problems) then that's your choice. It also makes you less valuable to your current employer and less attractive to a future employer. Getting laid off without a patent to your name for instance, is maybe not as good as remaining employed and being valued and getting raises and maybe even turning down opportunities for instance.

On the other hand this is based on thinking you enjoy the work. If you don't enjoy technical or creative contribution except for the money, then maybe think about doing something you do enjoy?

oh, i dunno. i suspect the companies that reward creativity survive hard times better than the ones that don't. and then you end up with creativity used in rather unproductive means, like digging in like a tick and keeping all the knowledge to yourself, making yourself "invaluable" because you're the only one that knows how certain legacy products work. you can dedicate yourself to life in a company like that, but good luck ever finding joy in life and work.

 

[rootX]

I'm not clear from that whether you are out of school or not, but when you get out of school, you have nothing whatsoever with which to prove how much you are worth, so you get the standard rate. But people who are good are generally recognized relatively quickly and rewarded for it. There is nothing wrong, ironic, etc. about how that works. It's a reality that makes a lot of sense.

I also agree with this.

My employer works full time (with about 30 people under him) and owns two-three small* companies. And, he is is pretty young I guess. (have only about 4-6 years working experience).

He also once told me that when young, he always wondered why professionals make 10 times him etc...

 

[MissSilvy]

I'd never except to make exorbitant amounts as an untried graduate. I know that I will start out with a certain salary and then have to prove I'm worth getting a raise. The problem with trying to ingratiate yourself with companies is that people have told me it is difficult to go off on your own. I don't want to work for some company for the rest of my working life, though I would obviously have to start off that way. I want to be an engineer because I enjoy solving problems and designing things. I do not, however, want to be an engineer so I can play in the convoluted inner-workings of companies and office bureaucracy. I have no objection to work and being a valuable employee, but before I go through more years of school and massive investments of time and energy, I need to know that competence and creativity is well-rewarded in the field.

You are correct in the assumption that I am not finished with my schooling yet and I do still have a lot to learn about how the working world functions but that is why I ask questions and seek out advice. I don't know everything and I don't claim to but before I get into something as important as a career, I need to make sure that I won't hate it 20 years down the line. Sure, I have 'passion' but I've seen a lot of people go in with raw passion and come out unsatisfied and disgruntled.

I appreciate everyone that's commented on this thread, since now I have a better idea of what's involved in the field and a lot more material to ask around about :)

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

I'm not indignant that I can't steal from companies, which selling a product that they hired you to make would be (like selling a new motor design to a competitor when you, in fact, work on that company's motors) but I'm a little mad that if I was a motor engineer with an interest in building cars or robots and I came up with something I wanted to market, I couldn't. I was under the impression that when a company hires you, it is to do a specific function, like improving factory efficiency or something, and anything you come up with in that area belongs to them.

you always OWN your own intellectual property. companies only own RIGHTS to the intellectual property. so you get credit for your work and are always capable of noting what patents are of your design in resumes and portfolios.
also you may want to consider how many original patents you believe you are capable of producing on your own, whether or not you can sell them or produce them commercially on your own, and whether or not this will bring you 50,000 a year plus benefits plus raises each year ect.
if you think you can then there is no point getting a job in a corporation. if you think you can't but that you are worth more then ask for a raise or go looking for a new job with your portfolio showing how valuable you have been.

 

[drankin]

Just to note, it may not even be a "corporation". When I got my first patent it was with a private company. All I got is my name on it. But my company made, literally, millions with the "invention". And that's the way it should be. If I hadn't worked for them, I wouldn't have even thought of the idea. And I pride myself on being a considerable asset to any company I work with.