Questioning Bell's Assumption on All Local Hidden Variable Theories

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The discussion centers on the validity of Bell's theorem and its implications for local hidden variable theories, questioning the assumption that all such theories must fail to reproduce quantum mechanics predictions. Participants argue that while Bell's theorem effectively rules out theories closely aligned with EPR's definitions, it may not account for all potential hidden variable theories. Key points include the assumptions of locality and realism, which suggest that measurement outcomes are predetermined and independent of observer influence. The concept of counterfactual definiteness is also debated, with some participants expressing skepticism about its applicability in a realistic context. Ultimately, the conversation reflects ongoing uncertainty and the need for deeper exploration of the foundational principles of quantum mechanics.
  • #31
Yes the second measurement, as in the first measurement on the other particle in the entangled
spin 1/2 system pair. The question was on how this second measurement can have an expected
outcome before measurement if the first measurement at Alice can be spin up or spin down.
Therefore the first measurement at Bob (second measurement) would be spin down or spin up.
 
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  • #32
harrylin said:
Bell admitted that the above calculation (or at least what follows after) demands what I understand to be counterfactual definiteness as follows in his paper on Bertlmann's socks:

To me, counterfactual definiteness is stronger than the hidden variables assumption. In terms of my notation, it would be the additional assumption that

P(o_1|f_1, f_2, \ldots) =0 or 1[/itex]

That is, the outcome is definite if the underlying causal factors are known. Hidden variables don't seem to imply counterfactual definiteness by themselves, but together with the perfect correlations of EPR, they do.

"it may be that it is not permissible to regard the experimental settings a and b in the analyzers as independent variables, as we did" - and then he included examples of "apparently random [...] devices".

That topic together with a (too?) simple counter example of Bell's (originally Boole's) example was also discussed here:
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=499002

That's a long thread. Could you summarize what you think is a counterexample to what?

Bell's not necessarily pre-existing polarisation isn't the same thing as a nondeterministic process!

Hmm. In a classical model of nondeterminism, if something isn't determined, then it's nondeterministic, sort of by definition. So I don't know what you mean by that.
 
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  • #33
harrylin said:
"it may be that it is not permissible to regard the experimental settings a and b in the analyzers as independent variables, as we did" - and then he included examples of "apparently random [...] devices".

I just read the relevant passages from Bell's "Speakable and unspeakable in quantum mechanics", and it seems to me that he isn't seriously suggesting such a possibly, he's only saying that it is logically possible. I think it amounts to the "superdeterminism" loophole to Bell's inequalities: If Alice and Bob aren't really free to set their detector orientations any way they choose, but instead are somehow constrained to set them to specific values, and those values are somehow influenced by the hidden variables affecting the twin-pair production, then you can achieve a violation of Bell's inequalities without nonlocal interactions. I don't think superdeterminism is completely out of the question, but it's hard to see how the scientific method can take the possibility of superdeterminism into account. The way we learn about the world is by adjusting some parameter and seeing what follows from that, and if there is no tweaking possible, then experiments aren't possible. You can certainly do science without experiments, with pure observations (basically, astrophysics has to be done this way, because we aren't capable of playing around with black holes and galaxies to see what happens). But it's a very different kind of science, I think.
 
  • #34
stevendaryl said:
But now we come to EPR for photons: we have a process for creating two correlated photons that go in opposite directions. We measure one photon at one filter, and the other photon at the other filter. Then what we find is that if a photon passes through one filter, then it passes through the other with probability cos^2(\theta), where \theta is the angle between the filter orientations. How can we explain this in classical terms?

How can we explain this in QM terms?? :bugeye:

Seriously, nice post stevendaryl. For a long time I’ve been trying to figure out exactly when the shared wavefunction of the two entangled photons collapse/decohere (or split the universe) to set the indefinite state (unknown polarization) to a definite state (polarized)??

Is it when one or the other passes through a filter?
Or, is it when one or the other ‘splash’ into the detector?
Or, is it some other “total-setup-view” criterion [which I think is DrC’s view]?

What also puzzles me is the “live” polarization rotation (by half/quarter-wave plates) that is done in some entanglement swapping experiments, which seems to imply that polarization alternation do not collapse/decohere the shared wavefunction/entanglement, or...??

Do you know?
 
  • #35
DevilsAvocado said:
How can we explain this in QM terms?? :bugeye:

Seriously, nice post stevendaryl. For a long time I’ve been trying to figure out exactly when the shared wavefunction of the two entangled photons collapse/decohere (or split the universe) to set the indefinite state (unknown polarization) to a definite state (polarized)??

Is it when one or the other passes through a filter?
Or, is it when one or the other ‘splash’ into the detector?
Or, is it some other “total-setup-view” criterion [which I think is DrC’s view]?

What also puzzles me is the “live” polarization rotation (by half/quarter-wave plates) that is done in some entanglement swapping experiments, which seems to imply that polarization alternation do not collapse/decohere the shared wavefunction/entanglement, or...??

Do you know?
I'm only a novice with this stuff but I'd guess that it is when the photon is detected, i.e. when it interacts with the detector and thus the energy transforms into an electrical signal.
 
  • #36
DevilsAvocado said:
How can we explain this in QM terms?? :bugeye:

Seriously, nice post stevendaryl. For a long time I’ve been trying to figure out exactly when the shared wavefunction of the two entangled photons collapse/decohere (or split the universe) to set the indefinite state (unknown polarization) to a definite state (polarized)??

Is it when one or the other passes through a filter?
Or, is it when one or the other ‘splash’ into the detector?
Or, is it some other “total-setup-view” criterion [which I think is DrC’s view]?

Well, for all practical purposes, it doesn't matter when the collapse happens. You could even imagine it happening 10 years after the measurement was made. The Many World's Interpretation basically amounts to taking the limit: the collapse never happens. Or alternatively, you can imagine that at the end of history, someone finally compiles a "history of the universe" that documents everything that ever happened, and it is that historian's observations that collapse the wavefunction. It doesn't make any difference, because of decoherence.
 
  • #37
Badvok said:
I'm only a novice with this stuff but I'd guess that it is when the photon is detected, i.e. when it interacts with the detector and thus the energy transforms into an electrical signal.

That's the moment when it becomes practically impossible to observe interference effects between different states (because there can't be any measurable inference involving macroscopic objects). That doesn't actually mean that a collapse has happened, but it means that you if you assume that it has happened, you won't be proved wrong.
 
  • #38
stevendaryl said:
Well, for all practical purposes, it doesn't matter when the collapse happens.

Oops, my fault... seems like we’re going down in Nugatory’s dreadful “rabbit hole”... :smile:

Let’s rephrase the question:

Exactly when is it not longer possible to perform an[other] action on one entangled photon that have an influence on its partner?


[the obvious answer is the detector/measurement, but I know DrC will maybe not agree on this one... :wink:]
 
  • #39
Badvok said:
I'm only a novice with this stuff but I'd guess that it is when the photon is detected, i.e. when it interacts with the detector and thus the energy transforms into an electrical signal.

That’s the obvious conclusion, but as you see – the daunting “rabbit hole” is approaching at the collapsed horizon... :smile:
 
  • #40
stevendaryl said:
This is perhaps an overly picky point, but a hidden variables theory does NOT by itself say that the particle is really spin up or spin down all along. Instead, it allows for the spin outcome to be a possibly nondeterministic function of the state of the detector and the state of the particle being detected. But the existence of perfect correlations (in the case of distant detectors measuring along the same axis) implies that a hidden variables explanation can't possibly agree with experiment unless that outcome is a deterministic function of the hidden variable and the detector orientation. So the claim that the spin had a definite value all along is a conclusion from the local hidden variables assumption, it's not assumed.

In post #24 you said that EPR assumed there were definite values all along.
Thats my understanding of the EPR assumption.That well defined states exist independent of observation. And measuement on one particle does not affect its entangled twin.
And these ± spin values are from detector measurements along the same axis: One permutation of eight being
xyz-------------------------------xyz
-+-.........+-+
From here the inequality n[x+,y+] ≤ n[x+,z+] + n[y-,z-] which QM shows to be violated with
1/2(sin(∅/2)2 ≤ 1/2(sin(∅/2)2 + 1/2sin(∅/2)2
 
  • #41
morrobay said:
In post #24 you said that EPR assumed there were definite values all along.
Thats my understanding of the EPR assumption.That well defined states exist independent of observation. And measuement on one particle does not affect its entangled twin.
And these ± spin values are from detector measurements along the same axis: One permutation of eight being
xyz-------------------------------xyz
-+-.........+-+
From here the inequality n[x+,y+] ≤ n[x+,z+] + n[y-,z-] which QM shows to be violated with
1/2(sin(∅/2)2 ≤ 1/2(sin(∅/2)2 + 1/2sin(∅/2)2

stevendaryl said:
This is perhaps an overly picky point, but a hidden variables theory does NOT by itself say that the particle is really spin up or spin down all along. Instead, it allows for the spin outcome to be a possibly nondeterministic function of the state of the detector and the state of the particle being detected. But the existence of perfect correlations (in the case of distant detectors measuring along the same axis) implies that a hidden variables explanation can't possibly agree with experiment unless that outcome is a deterministic function of the hidden variable and the detector orientation. So the claim that the spin had a definite value all along is a conclusion from the local hidden variables assumption, it's not assumed.

So there seems to be a difference between the assumptions in an EPR hidden variable theory:
That a particle has well defined spin before measurement. And the above hidden variable theory
where the particle does not have spin all along. A Bell assumption ?. Because if it allows for the
spin outcome to be a nondetermiistic function of the state of the detector and the state of
the particle being detected then this is getting very close to non realism ?
 
  • #42
morrobay said:
So there seems to be a difference between the assumptions in an EPR hidden variable theory:
That a particle has well defined spin before measurement. And the above hidden variable theory
where the particle does not have spin all along. A Bell assumption ?. Because if it allows for the
spin outcome to be a nondetermiistic function of the state of the detector and the state of
the particle being detected then this is getting very close to non realism ?

As I said, that the spin result existed before the measurement is a conclusion, rather than an assumption. You can start off with a function

P(\alpha | \lambda) = the probability of Alice measuring spin-up at angle \alpha, given that the hidden variable has value \lambda. But the perfect anti-correlation (in the spin-1/2 case) between the two particles implies that
P(\alpha | \lambda) must be either 0 or 1---that is, it has to be deterministic.
 
  • #43
morrobay said:
So there seems to be a difference between the assumptions in an EPR hidden variable theory:
That a particle has well defined spin before measurement. And the above hidden variable theory
where the particle does not have spin all along. A Bell assumption ?. Because if it allows for the
spin outcome to be a nondeterministic function of the state of the detector and the state of
the particle being detected then this is getting very close to non realism ?

Stevendaryl's point is that a theory cannot be local AND non-deterministic AND predict perfect anti-correlation when the detectors are exactly opposite. We know we get perfect anti-correlation, so we're allowed non-local non-deterministic theories, local deterministic theories, and non-local deterministic theories. Bell's theorem allows us to test for and reject the local deterministic theories, which are the ones that EPR considered.
 
  • #44
morrobay said:
So there seems to be a difference between the assumptions in an EPR hidden variable theory:
That a particle has well defined spin before measurement. And the above hidden variable theory
where the particle does not have spin all along. A Bell assumption ?. Because if it allows for the
spin outcome to be a nondetermiistic function of the state of the detector and the state of
the particle being detected then this is getting very close to non realism ?


http://www.tau.ac.il/~vaidman/lvhp/m105.pdf
"the core of the controversy is that quantum counterfactuals about the results of measurements of observables, and especially “elements of reality” are understood as attributing values to observables which are not observed. But this is completely foreign to quantum mechanics. Unperformed experiments have no results! “Element of reality” is just a shorthand for describing a situation in which we know with certainty the outcome of a measurement if it is to be performed, which in turn helps us to know how weakly coupled particles are influenced by the system. Having “elements of reality” does not mean having values for observables. The semantics are misleading since “elements of reality” are not “real” in the ontological sense"


.
 
  • #46
harrylin said:
Bell admitted that the above calculation (or at least what follows after) demands what I understand to be counterfactual definiteness as follows in his paper on Bertlmann's socks:

"it may be that it is not permissible to regard the experimental settings a and b in the analyzers as independent variables, as we did" - and then he included examples of "apparently random [...] devices".

That topic together with a (too?) simple counter example of Bell's (originally Boole's) example was also discussed here:
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=499002 [..]
stevendaryl said:
[..]
That's a long thread. Could you summarize what you think is a counterexample to what?
Yes, sorry for the delay! I had to refresh my memory first.

De Raedt attempted to give a counter example to Bell's derivation method. His simple counter example is given on p.25, 26 of http://arxiv.org/abs/0901.2546 :

In this second variation of the investigation, we let only two
doctors, one in Lille and one in Lyon perform the examina-
tions. The doctor in Lille examines randomly all patients of
types a and b and the one in Lyon all of type b and c each one
patient at a randomly chosen date. The doctors are convinced
that neither the date of examination nor the location (Lille or
Lyon) has any influence and therefore denote the patients only
by their place of birth. After a lengthy period of examination
they find
Γ(w) = Aa (w)Ab (w) + Aa (w)Ac (w) + Ab (w)Ac (w) = −3

They further notice that the single outcomes of Aa (w), Ab (w)
and Ac (w) are randomly equal to ±1. [..]
a single outcome manifests itself randomly in one city and [..]
the outcome in the other city is then always of opposite sign

Perhaps the weakest point of that example is that the freely chosen detector position of Bell tests with anti-correlation is not fully matched by it. And it is still unclear to me if that is impossible to implement in an example, or only difficult to do. Consequently, the question is for me still open if Bell's assumptions about local realism were valid or not.
 
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  • #47
harrylin said:
Yes, sorry for the delay! I had to refresh my memory first.

De Raedt attempted to give a counter example to Bell's derivation method. His simple counter example is given on p.25, 26 of http://arxiv.org/abs/0901.2546 :

In this second variation of the investigation, we let only two
doctors, one in Lille and one in Lyon perform the examina-
tions. The doctor in Lille examines randomly all patients of
types a and b and the one in Lyon all of type b and c each one
patient at a randomly chosen date. The doctors are convinced
that neither the date of examination nor the location (Lille or
Lyon) has any influence and therefore denote the patients only
by their place of birth. After a lengthy period of examination
they find
Γ(w) = Aa (w)Ab (w) + Aa (w)Ac (w) + Ab (w)Ac (w) = −3

They further notice that the single outcomes of Aa (w), Ab (w)
and Ac (w) are randomly equal to ±1. [..]
a single outcome manifests itself randomly in one city and [..]
the outcome in the other city is then always of opposite sign

That's not a counter-example.

What they claim to violate is Bell's original 1964 inequality. Bell's original inequality is something of an odd duckling in the zoology of Bell inequalities in that it relies on an extra (but entirely observable) assumption. Specifically, in their notation, and putting the locations back on (Lille = 1, Lyon = 2), the Bell inequality uses the assumption that A^{1}_{\mathbf{b}}(w) = A^{2}_{\mathbf{b}}(w). This is observable, since it implies that \langle A^{1}_{\mathbf{b}}(w) A^{2}_{\mathbf{b}}(w) \rangle = 1, and it just means that the correct way to state Bell's inequality should really be something like
\langle A^{1}_{\mathbf{a}}(w) A^{2}_{\mathbf{b}}(w) \rangle + \langle A^{1}_{\mathbf{a}}(w) A^{2}_{\mathbf{c}}(w) \rangle + \langle A^{1}_{\mathbf{b}}(w) A^{2}_{\mathbf{c}}(w) \rangle \geq -1 \quad \text{given that} \quad \langle A^{1}_{\mathbf{b}}(w) A^{2}_{\mathbf{b}}(w) \rangle = 1 \,.
Their counter-example isn't a counter-example because it has \langle A^{1}_{\mathbf{b}}(w) A^{2}_{\mathbf{b}}(w) \rangle = -1. Incidentally, if you try to read the inequality above in the same way as other Bell inequalities (i.e. without imposing a condition like A^{1}_{\mathbf{b}}(w) = A^{2}_{\mathbf{b}}(w)), then it's easy to see that its local bound is actually -3 (the same as the algebraic bound) instead of -1.

So they've demonstrated a "violation" of the 1964 Bell inequality in a way that breaks a necessary and verifiable condition for it to hold as a test of locality in the first place. Their approach simply wouldn't work for any other Bell inequality, such as CHSH, that doesn't rely on a condition like this.

Later, in section VII.B, they give another "counter-example" that similarly only works because they define their model such that E(\mathbf{b}, \mathbf{b}) = 4/\pi - 1 \neq 1. Of course, as they themselves point out, their model is incapable of violating the CHSH inequality.

On a side note, a concluding remark toward the end of section VII.A

Because no \lambda exists that would lead to a violation except a \lambda that depends on the index pairs (a, b), (a, c) and (b, c) the simplistic conclusion is that either elements of reality do not exist or they are non-local. The mistake here is that Bell and followers insist from the start that the same element of reality occurs for the three different experiments with three different setting pairs. This assumption implies the existence of the combinatorial-topological cyclicity that in turn implies the validity of a non-trivial inequality but has no physical basis. Why should the elements of reality not all be different? Why should they, for example not include the time of measurement? There is furthermore no reason why there should be no parameter of the equipment involved. Thus the equipment could involve time and setting dependent parameters such as \lambda_{\mathbf{a}}(t), \lambda_{\mathbf{b}}(t), \lambda_{\mathbf{c}}(t) and the functions A might depend on these parameters as well

reveals some basic confusions about what Bell's theorem actually implies and the assumptions underpinning it. Basically, if S is some Bell correlator that you could measure, with a local bound T_{\text{local}}, then the authors seem to be reading Bell's theorem as implying a logical or algebraic constraint on S:
S \leq T_{\text{local}} \,.
For certain simple correlation inequalities this holds, as the authors say, if you assume that the hidden variable \lambda is the same each time you do the test. But obviously we don't want to assume that, and what Bell's theorem actually proves is more like a bound on the expectation value of S, i.e. something more like
\langle S \rangle \leq T_{\text{local}} \,.
This means that, according to locality, it is entirely possible to do a Bell test and measure a value for S that violates the local bound. It's just that the chance of this happening rapidly becomes very small if you do the test on (say) a very large number of entangled particles. So if you do a Bell test on a very large number of particles and get something significantly above the local bound, the idea is that you can rule out locality with very high confidence.

Finally, the authors suggest that the hidden variable \lambda should be allowed to depend explicitly on time and possibly on the detector settings. Of course, letting \lambda depend explicitly on time doesn't really affect Bell's theorem (it holds regardless of the probability distribution \rho(\lambda) explicitly appearing in proofs of Bell inequalities, so allowing the probability distribution to change in time won't accomplish much). For a properly performed Bell test, letting \lambda depend on the detector settings is normally argued away on the basis of the so-called "free will" or "no conspiracies" assumption (it could also occur if you allow retrocausality, which is not included in the definition of Bell-locality).
 
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  • #48
wle said:
reveals some basic confusions about what Bell's theorem actually implies

:rolleyes: a interpretation of bell, aforegoing , bells interpretation of einstein..
 
  • #49
wle said:
That's not a counter-example.



Finally, the authors suggest that the hidden variable \lambda should be allowed to depend explicitly on time and possibly on the detector settings. Of course, letting \lambda depend explicitly on time doesn't really affect Bell's theorem (it holds regardless of the probability distribution \rho(\lambda) explicitly appearing in proofs of Bell inequalities, so allowing the probability distribution to change in time won't accomplish much). For a properly performed Bell test, letting \lambda depend on the detector settings is normally argued away on the basis of the so-called "free will" or "no conspiracies" assumption (it could also occur if you allow retrocausality, which is not included in the definition of Bell-locality).

Then am I understanding that when detector settings are parallel: P(α|λ| is deterministic.
And when detector settings are not parallel then P(α|λ| is non-deterministic, depending on state of particle at time of measurement in relation to detector setting ? If so can this still be a local realistic assumption ?
 
  • #50
wle said:
[..] What they claim to violate is Bell's original 1964 inequality. Bell's original inequality is something of an odd duckling in the zoology of Bell inequalities in that it relies on an extra (but entirely observable) assumption. [..] the correct way to state Bell's inequality should really be something like
\langle A^{1}_{\mathbf{a}}(w) A^{2}_{\mathbf{b}}(w) \rangle + \langle A^{1}_{\mathbf{a}}(w) A^{2}_{\mathbf{c}}(w) \rangle + \langle A^{1}_{\mathbf{b}}(w) A^{2}_{\mathbf{c}}(w) \rangle \geq -1 \quad \text{given that} \quad \langle A^{1}_{\mathbf{b}}(w) A^{2}_{\mathbf{b}}(w) \rangle = 1 \,. [..]
So they've demonstrated a "violation" of the 1964 Bell inequality in a way that breaks a necessary and verifiable condition for it to hold as a test of locality in the first place. [..]
In words, [Edit:] I first thought that you mean, perhaps: an entangled particle spin measurement at location 1 must give the same result as the measurement of that same particle spin for the same angle at location 2. How can one measure the state of the same elementary particle in two locations without having interfered with it??
However, that's not what the suffix b means in this example, nor in that of Bell. The condition about entangled particles, which is projected on this example about patients, is that an entangled particle spin measurement at location 1 must give the opposite result as the measurement of the spin of its corresponding particle for the same angle at location 2. It is this verified condition that is exactly reproduced in their illustration about patients, although in a rather artificial way.
[..] On a side note, a concluding remark toward the end of section VII.A
reveals some basic confusions about what Bell's theorem actually implies and the assumptions underpinning it. Basically, if S is some Bell correlator that you could measure, with a local bound T_{\text{local}}, then the authors seem to be reading Bell's theorem as implying a logical or algebraic constraint on S [..] But obviously we don't want to assume that, and what Bell's theorem actually proves is more like a bound on the expectation value of S [..]
They definitely read Bell's theorem as possible correlations between data, or in other words, mathematical expectations and correlations related to the data - as they explained in the introduction.
if you do a Bell test on a very large number of particles and get something significantly above the local bound, the idea is that you can rule out locality with very high confidence.
Yes, that's certainly the idea. :wink:
For a properly performed Bell test, letting \lambda depend on the detector settings is normally argued away on the basis of the so-called "free will" or "no conspiracies" assumption (it could also occur if you allow retrocausality, which is not included in the definition of Bell-locality).
It appears that the authors considered non-conspiracy solutions.
 
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  • #51
morrobay said:
Then am I understanding that when detector settings are parallel: P(α|λ| is deterministic.
And when detector settings are not parallel then P(α|λ| is non-deterministic, depending on state of particle at time of measurement in relation to detector setting ? If so can this still be a local realistic assumption ?
It can still be deterministic and it has at least one local realistic solution in accord with some experiments, and which they presented elsewhere (they refer to that in the text). But it's not clear for me if the result can be entirely in accord with QM.
There is a thread on that attempt:
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=369286
 
  • #52
harrylin said:
However, that's not what the suffix b means in this example, nor in that of Bell. The condition about entangled particles, which is projected on this example about patients, is that an entangled particle spin measurement at location 1 must give the opposite result as the measurement of the spin of its corresponding particle for the same angle at location 2.

That's the scenario that Bell originally considered: he derived local bounds given that \langle A^{1}_{\mathbf{b}} A^{2}_{\mathbf{b}} \rangle = -1. But you can also derive local bounds for the case where \langle A^{1}_{\mathbf{b}} A^{2}_{\mathbf{b}} \rangle = +1. You get different inequalities in each case, and the particular inequality,
\langle A_{\mathbf{a}} A_{\mathbf{b}} \rangle + \langle A_{\mathbf{a}} A_{\mathbf{c}} \rangle + \langle A_{\mathbf{b}} A_{\mathbf{c}} \rangle \geq - 1 \,,
considered by de Raedt et. al. is derived assuming A^{1}_{\mathbf{b}} = A^{2}_{\mathbf{b}} = A_{\mathbf{b}}. (Note that this is not the inequality Bell derived in 1964.)

So they don't have a counter-example. They took an inequality that is derived assuming A^{1}_{\mathbf{b}} = A^{2}_{\mathbf{b}}, and showed that it is violated by a local model in which A^{1}_{\mathbf{b}} = - A^{2}_{\mathbf{b}}. In fact, they explicitly point this out later as the reason their model violates the inequality:
de Raedt et. al. said:
The date index does not matter for the products since both signs are reversed on even and odd days leaving the products unchanged. Including the city labels the doctors realize that A^{1}_{\mathbf{b}}(w, n) = − A^{2}_{\mathbf{b}}(w, n), totally against their expectations.
 
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  • #53
stevendaryl said:
To me, counterfactual definiteness is stronger than the hidden variables assumption. In terms of my notation, it would be the additional assumption that

P(o_1|f_1, f_2, \ldots) =0 or 1[/itex]

That is, the outcome is definite if the underlying causal factors are known. Hidden variables don't seem to imply counterfactual definiteness by themselves, but together with the perfect correlations of EPR, they do.
You attribute hidden variables only to entangled particles. But they can be attributed to experimental equipment too i.e. say equipment becomes entangled at some stage. And in that case counterfactual definiteness is not attributable to properties of entangled particles even in case of perfect correlations.
 
  • #54
zonde said:
You attribute hidden variables only to entangled particles. But they can be attributed to experimental equipment too i.e. say equipment becomes entangled at some stage. And in that case counterfactual definiteness is not attributable to properties of entangled particles even in case of perfect correlations.

Well, the details of the spin-1/2 twin-pair experiment places severe limits on the effect of hidden variables in the equipment. If one detector measures spin-up along an axis, you know with absolute certainty that the other detector will NOT measure spin-up along that axis. So that places pretty strict limits on how much hidden variables in the detector can affect the measurement results.
 
  • #55
zonde said:
You attribute hidden variables only to entangled particles.

They're not really being attributed to anything. You're simply looking at some scenario where you see correlations between events occurring in two spacelike separated regions, and you imagine trying to explain those correlations as arising from some past interaction or common origin. The hidden variables just represent some -- any -- initial conditions in the overlap of the past light cones that you think might explain the correlations you see according to some candidate theory that respects locality.

Incidentally, determinism is not necessary as an assumption for deriving Bell inequalities. It isn't even necessary to argue that determinism follows from the fact quantum physics predicts perfect correlations in certain circumstances. It just isn't needed. (In case this wasn't already clear to anyone.)
 
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  • #56
stevendaryl said:
Well, the details of the spin-1/2 twin-pair experiment places severe limits on the effect of hidden variables in the equipment. If one detector measures spin-up along an axis, you know with absolute certainty that the other detector will NOT measure spin-up along that axis. So that places pretty strict limits on how much hidden variables in the detector can affect the measurement results.
Think carefully. Let's say there are no hidden variables associated with particles. In that case is there something that can determine "absolutely" certain outcome of measurement?
 
  • #57
wle said:
They're not really being attributed to anything. You're simply looking at some scenario where you see correlations between events occurring in two spacelike separated regions, and you imagine trying to explain those correlations as arising from some past interaction or common origin.
You are missing what was the statement I was replaying to.
The statement was:
hidden variables + perfect correlations => counterfactual definiteness
 
  • #58
zonde said:
Think carefully. Let's say there are no hidden variables associated with particles. In that case is there something that can determine "absolutely" certain outcome of measurement?

I'm sorry, I don't understand that comment.
 
  • #59
stevendaryl said:
I'm sorry, I don't understand that comment.
Hmm, then I don't understand yours.

stevendaryl said:
Well, the details of the spin-1/2 twin-pair experiment places severe limits on the effect of hidden variables in the equipment. If one detector measures spin-up along an axis, you know with absolute certainty that the other detector will NOT measure spin-up along that axis. So that places pretty strict limits on how much hidden variables in the detector can affect the measurement results.
With detector you mean set of equipment that determines spin-up/spin-down? Or just that piece of equipment that gives "click" at particular moment? In other words detector one is at Alice's end and other detector is at Bob's end, right? Or rather detector one gives "click" for spin-up particles and other detector gives "click" for spin-down particles?
And if you talk about details of experiment then it would be more useful to take something closer to real experiments.
 
  • #60
One last try to clarify that interesting illustration:
wle said:
[..] What they claim to violate is Bell's original 1964 inequality. [..] Specifically, in their notation, and putting the locations back on (Lille = 1, Lyon = 2), the Bell inequality uses the assumption that A^{1}_{\mathbf{b}}(w) = A^{2}_{\mathbf{b}}(w). This is observable, since it implies that \langle A^{1}_{\mathbf{b}}(w) A^{2}_{\mathbf{b}}(w) \rangle = 1, and it just means that the correct way to state Bell's inequality should really be something like
\langle A^{1}_{\mathbf{a}}(w) A^{2}_{\mathbf{b}}(w) \rangle + \langle A^{1}_{\mathbf{a}}(w) A^{2}_{\mathbf{c}}(w) \rangle + \langle A^{1}_{\mathbf{b}}(w) A^{2}_{\mathbf{c}}(w) \rangle \geq -1 \quad \text{given that} \quad \langle A^{1}_{\mathbf{b}}(w) A^{2}_{\mathbf{b}}(w) \rangle = 1 \,.
Their counter-example isn't a counter-example because it has \langle A^{1}_{\mathbf{b}}(w) A^{2}_{\mathbf{b}}(w) \rangle = -1.
[..]
wle said:
That's the scenario that Bell originally considered: he derived local bounds given that \langle A^{1}_{\mathbf{b}} A^{2}_{\mathbf{b}} \rangle = -1. But you can also derive local bounds for the case where \langle A^{1}_{\mathbf{b}} A^{2}_{\mathbf{b}} \rangle = +1. You get different inequalities in each case, and the particular inequality,
\langle A_{\mathbf{a}} A_{\mathbf{b}} \rangle + \langle A_{\mathbf{a}} A_{\mathbf{c}} \rangle + \langle A_{\mathbf{b}} A_{\mathbf{c}} \rangle \geq - 1 \,,
considered by de Raedt et. al. is derived assuming A^{1}_{\mathbf{b}} = A^{2}_{\mathbf{b}} = A_{\mathbf{b}}. (Note that this is not the inequality Bell derived in 1964.)

So they don't have a counter-example. They took an inequality that is derived assuming A^{1}_{\mathbf{b}} = A^{2}_{\mathbf{b}}, and showed that it is violated by a local model in which A^{1}_{\mathbf{b}} = - A^{2}_{\mathbf{b}}.
[..]
So, Bell's inequality violation incl. the condition that A^{1}_{\mathbf{b}}(w) = - A^{2}_{\mathbf{b}}(w) is correctly reproduced. However they did not "derive" their simple illustration - that doesn't make sense! Instead, they modified Boole's example to illustrate that it is possible to obtain such weird results with local realism.

NB: -1 or 1 for the product doesn't matter much, as was discussed in the thread about that paper (there someone else argued just the contrary as you! - www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=3361187). I did not try it, but I suppose that De Raedt's example can be modified to break the inequality for the in that example less weird result of equal outcomes for each pair, and still break the inequality. See also this example, with footnote 3: http://www.felderbooks.com/papers/bell.html
 
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