Radiation back reaction in classical electrodynamics

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the topic of radiation reaction force and self-force in classical electrodynamics, particularly focusing on point particles and extended bodies. Participants explore the mathematical soundness of coupling classical electrodynamics with fluid dynamics, the existence of solutions, and the historical context of unresolved issues such as pre-acceleration and runaway solutions.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants inquire about a rigorous treatment of radiation reaction force for point particles, questioning whether a breakthrough has resolved issues like pre-acceleration and runaway solutions.
  • One participant asserts that no breakthrough exists and that these issues remain unresolved.
  • There is a discussion on whether coupling Maxwell's equations to a dynamical extended body, such as a charged fluid, avoids the typical issues faced by point sources, with some suggesting that extended bodies with finite charge densities are physically reasonable.
  • Participants express uncertainty regarding the mathematical soundness of classical electrodynamics coupled to fluid dynamics, with one participant doubting the existence and uniqueness of solutions.
  • Another participant mentions that fluid models of plasmas have been successful in describing physical phenomena despite unresolved mathematical issues.
  • References to the Landau-Lifshitz approximation to the Lorentz-Abraham-Dirac equation are made, with some participants arguing for its superiority over the LAD equation.
  • A quantum-Langevin approach is proposed as a potential solution that avoids problems associated with the LAD equation.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the existence of a breakthrough in the treatment of radiation reaction force, the mathematical soundness of the theory when coupled with fluid dynamics, and the effectiveness of various approximations and models. The discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing perspectives presented.

Contextual Notes

Participants note limitations in the mathematical treatment of the theories discussed, particularly regarding the existence and uniqueness of solutions in the context of fluid dynamics and classical electrodynamics. There is also mention of unresolved issues related to radiation reaction forces in classical electrodynamics.

HomogenousCow
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I've been doing some research on the topic of radiation reaction force/self force in classical electrodynamics and although there are some discussions on the internet I would like direct answers to these following questions:

  1. Is there a rigorous and universally accepted treatment of radiation reaction force in classical electrodynamics for point particles? If so what was the breakthrough that solved the issues plaguing the seminal works such as pre-acceleration and runaway solutions?
  2. If we couple Maxwell's equations to a dynamical extended body, such as a charged fluid, do the resulting equations suffer from the typical issues encountered with point sources? And if not, does this treatment predict radiation reaction force that is physically reasonable?
  3. Is classical electrodynamics coupled to fluid dynamics a mathematically sound theory? As in, are there results on the existence and uniqueness of solutions in this theory.
 
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HomogenousCow said:
If so what was the breakthrough that solved the issues plaguing the seminal works such as pre-acceleration and runaway solutions?
There is no such breakthrough. Those issues remain unresolved.

HomogenousCow said:
If we couple Maxwell's equations to a dynamical extended body, such as a charged fluid, do the resulting equations suffer from the typical issues encountered with point sources? And if not, does this treatment predict radiation reaction force that is physically reasonable?
Extended bodies with charge densities that are everywhere finite are physically reasonable.

HomogenousCow said:
Is classical electrodynamics coupled to fluid dynamics a mathematically sound theory? As in, are there results on the existence and uniqueness of solutions in this theory.
I don’t know, but I am not aware of problems like those with classical point particles.
 
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HomogenousCow said:
Is classical electrodynamics coupled to fluid dynamics a mathematically sound theory? As in, are there results on the existence and uniqueness of solutions in this theory.
I don't know if existence and uniqueness has been settled (I really doubt it), but a 30-second google search yielded some interesting hits like
https://www.jstor.org/stable/20209485
http://wrap.warwick.ac.uk/66955/
This is more in the realm of mathematics than physics, in that few physicists probably have the tools (or inclination) to make much progress on that front.

Even if those issues haven't been resolved, fluid models of plasmas have been pretty successful at describing physical phenomena. So have the more accurate kinetic models that can be used to derive fluid models by taking velocity-space moments.

jason
 
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According to "numerical studies" the best we have on the classical level concerning the radiation-reaction problem is the Landau-Lifshitz approximation to the Lorentz-Abraham-Dirac equation. For a nice treatment, see

C. Nakhleh, The Lorentz-Dirac and Landau-Lifshitz equations from the perspective of
modern renormalization theory, Am. J. Phys 81, 180 (2013),
https://dx.doi.org/10.1119/1.4773292.
https://arxiv.org/abs/1207.1745

K. Lechner, Classical Electrodynamics, Springer International Publishing AG, Cham
(2018), https://doi.org/10.1007/978-3-319-91809-9
 
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In his derivation, Lechner states on page 467, "Ultimately the Lorentz Dirac equation must be postulated."
 
But the LAD equation is not the solution! The Landau-Lifshitz approximation is much better. A quantum-Langevin approach (at least for the non-relativistic case) suggests that the real matter is a non-Markovian description on the classical level, which avoids all the problems of the LAD equation right away. For this, see

G. W. Ford, J. T. Lewis and R. F. O’Connell, Quantum
Langevin equation, Phys. Rev. A 37, 4419 (1988),
https://doi.org/10.1103/PhysRevA.37.4419

or

https://doi.org/10.1016/0375-9601(91)90054-C
 

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