Radical new take on *uni*verse questions by Smolin, could be important

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  • #51
Paulibus said:
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Why don't the known laws of physics evolve?
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I'm puzzled by this, Paulibus. Could you give me an example of what you mean by a "known law"?

It seems to me just thinking back over the past 400 years that all the KNOWN laws have been evolving very rapidly, and that is not what Smolin is talking about.

Nowadays I think a reality-based physicist's attitude is that the laws we humans have are not in any absolute sense TRUE but are simply the best, most reliable ones we have at the moment. And the community is constantly trying to probe their weakness wrongness limitations of applicability and is constantly yearning to be able to improve or replace them.

What Smolin seems to be talking about is the Platonic fantasy some people have of there being some UNKNOWN laws of physics, veiled from our mortal eyes but eternal ineffable and operating constantly and unerringly on every atom of our affairs...
 
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  • #52
Dont worry about understanding my comments, they are based on ideas based on things like everything we see is in the past, wheres the edge of the universe, quantum weirdness etc and go beyond anything Smolin has said so far but are not up for discussion on this forum which is a pity as this forum seems to be the best I have found.
 
  • #53
Marcus: here's an example of "known laws" (almost certainly) not evolving, as I see it.

Quite recently, with the Herschel observatory and other telescopes, astronomers have been observing the faint galaxy HFLS3. All their observations, of happenings 12.8 billion years in our past, are interpreted with conventional physics, working just as we describe it to work here and now. The conclusion they came to is that new stars were being formed in HFLS3 at an unprecedented rate of about 3000 per year. This conclusion is preferred (by Occam's razor or common sense) to fanciful (until they become evidence-based!) guesses about how the laws of physics themselves might have evolved to account for this surprising result.

This is quite different from the way physics, as our evolving description of the way nature works, changes to accommodate new facts we discover, such as the fact that photographic emulsions left in a Wurtzberg drawer with certain elements are changed by such exposure. We are careful to accept new physics only after much experimental checking and re-checking. Physics is quite a sceptical science and is fallible when it strays too far from its narrow path.

But thankfully there are exceptions. Be nice if Smolin stumbled on such a path!
 
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  • #54
I've been jumping around in the book.

Smolin's main driver for evolving natural laws seems to be cosmological natural selection. Universes with more black holes give birth to universes with more black holes. Life and intelligence evolve more as side effects of natural constants and structures that tend to give rise to universes with more black holes. It seems like he mostly thinks the particular laws of any given universe get set during its creation but don't change much after that.

But I would ask why can't the evolution of laws being occurring in our own universe?

The laws of our universe might not be constant but particles, forces, and matter evolve in response to expansion and might be significantly different in the future. The reason this is not apparent is that we are living at a time when we are unable to see into the earliest beginnings of this universe and, of course, cannot see into the future. We may be living at a point of relative stability. However, there are some indications from Planck and, I believe, measurements of electroweak forces that even now we might suspect some of these forces are not constant.
 
  • #55
Hi Paulibus, I mentioned that known laws of physics have evolved rapidly over past 400 years so I guess I should illustrate. I don't think there are any KNOWN laws that are not in people's heads and written in their languages (math and other).

So the known law of geometry used to be rigid Euclid, and then around 1820-1850 with Gauss Lobachevsky Riemann it evolved so that triangles might not add up to 180 and you could define shape from the INSIDE rather than needing a geometry to be embedded in a surrounding Euclidean space. And then around 1915 the known law of geometry became DYNAMIC so that it could be affected by the flow of of matter, and the change in geometry could have a kind of persistence analogous to momentum. If it started expanding it would tend to continue and only gradually be slowed down if at all.

And the known law of GRAVITY also evolved in a fairly radical way from say Newton to say 1915.

But I don't think any physicist believes that these are really true laws that are precisely built into Nature. They are just approximate and provisional.

I think that is the way with all our KNOWN laws of physics. Everybody realizes they are evolving and are constantly subject to revision and are in fact constantly being probed for error by those whose job it is to help them evolve.

You know the Plato Cave business where Platonists believe in the actual eternal existence of ideal absolute Forms, Laws if you wish.

The question here (when discussing Smolin's proposal) is about the status of UNKNOWN laws. Do ideal eternal Laws somehow exist? How do they do that? How do they manage to govern the whole humble secularly changing universe if they themselves are outside of it? Why are they not reciprocally reacted on by what they affect the way everything else is? and so.

And if there are ideal unchanging efficiently acting Laws, how did they get that way, why did THOSE particular ones turn out to be the ones? Of course we don't KNOW them, we only have provisional approximate evolving ones that we so far managed to figure out. but what about the Platonic Ideal Laws?

So I'm saying that what we are discussing here is the existence/non-existence and other details about some conjectured UNKNOWN laws.
 
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  • #56
marcus said:
Hi Paulibus, I mentioned that known laws of physics have evolved rapidly over past 400 years so I guess I should illustrate. I don't think there are any KNOWN laws that are not in people's heads and written in their languages (math and other).

So the known law of geometry used to be rigid Euclid, and then around 1820-1850 with Gauss Lobachevsky Riemann it evolved so that triangles might not add up to 180 and you could define shape from the INSIDE rather than needing a geometry to be embedded in a surrounding Euclidean space. And then around 1915 the known law of geometry became DYNAMIC so that it could be affected by the flow of of matter, and the change in geometry could have a kind of persistence analogous to momentum. If it started expanding it would tend to continue and only gradually be slowed down if at all.

And the known law of GRAVITY also evolved in a fairly radical way from say Newton to say 1915.

But I don't think any physicist believes that these are really true laws that are precisely built into Nature. They are just approximate and provisional.

I think that is the way with all our KNOWN laws of physics. Everybody realizes they are evolving and are constantly subject to revision and are in fact constantly being probed for error by those whose job it is to help them evolve.
There's a useful distinction to be made between our evolving knowledge of the laws of physics, and having laws which, by their nature, change in time.

I'd just point out that it is always possible to come up with a set of laws which do not change in time. This is a pretty trivial observation: if you have a set of laws which change over time (or space), then there is some way to write down the mechanism by which those laws change. Once you have written down the full mechanism for how those laws change, you now have a theory which doesn't change in time. By way of example, consider the following law of gravity:

F_g(r,t) = {Gm_1m_2 \over r^2} - {f(t) \over r^3}

Here we have a law of gravity which is the normal, Newtonian gravity, plus an extra cubic term that changes over time. This means that for masses that are far away from one another, this law of gravity is just Newtonian gravity. But when the masses get close together, there is a correction to the law of gravity that is different at different times.

What if we were to discover that this was our law of gravity, and then later discover that f(t) was driven by some particular physical process. I don't know enough to know what sort of physical process might cause this to occur, but let's just imagine, say, that it's some sort of scalar field that changes over time. We'll call this scalar field S. Then the law of gravity might become:

F_g(r,S) = {Gm_1m_2 \over r^2} - {S \over r^3}

Now we have a law that is independent of time, though S changes over time, and it might do so through some sort of gravitational interaction or other.

My contention is that you will always be able to do something similar to this: if something is changing over time, there is always a mechanism we can write down to describe how this changes to produce a time-invariant law.
 
  • #57
Marcus: the word “Evolution” has caused much misunderstanding over the years, and should
be used with caution! As biologists use it, it is a process of evidence-based and gradual natural change that created out of relatively simple materials the complex fabric of life that now exists on this planet. The time it took to do this was of the order of a billionyears. Or perhaps more.

Physics is a "just!" a human description of how some parts of real Nature work. The whole cloth of language and mathematics from which this description is cut is quite new, compared even with
the known history of its tailors, who have discovered that Nature rides on rails of reality
that physics describes and codifies as laws. It’s true that in perfecting our description to more closely approximate Nature we change these laws, sometimes gradually, sometimes with periods of equilibrium punctuated by revolutions, like those of the 20th Century. But it turns out that it’s not Nature that changes, but our descriptions of Nature that do. Chalnoth has clearly shown how changes of Nature could be incorporated in our descriptions, but astronomical evidence suggests that our present codified take on the way Nature works ,over this domain of knowledge, is adequate to describe stuff that happened nearly 13 billion years ago.

For me, this is the astonishing and noteworthy conclusion: no evidence of change, certainly no evolution for the way Nature operates. This is what needs explaining! It’s like Conan Doyle’s story of Silver Blaze and that dog that didn’t bark in the night!
 
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  • #58
Have been following this thread with some interest. Can I take it that what we are looking for is why the laws take the form that they do rather than the way our perception of the laws has changed as with gravity from Newton to einstein. So if there were no laws in place before the universe began then what caused the laws to become laws as the universe began, or what lies behind the laws as we know them. Of course the laws can only describe how and not why. Criminal laws evolve as civilization becomes more complex but all laws exist because of a common factor i.e crime, so are we looking for a common factor from which the natural laws evolved?
 
  • #59
Adrian07 said:
Have been following this thread with some interest. Can I take it that what we are looking for is why the laws take the form that they do rather than the way our perception of the laws has changed as with gravity from Newton to einstein. So if there were no laws in place before the universe began then what caused the laws to become laws as the universe began, or what lies behind the laws as we know them. Of course the laws can only describe how and not why. Criminal laws evolve as civilization becomes more complex but all laws exist because of a common factor i.e crime, so are we looking for a common factor from which the natural laws evolved?

Hi Adrian, I think you have it more or less RIGHT. Or at least your perception agrees with mine. It's really important that everyone in this discussion watch the first 30 minutes or so of
http://pirsa.org/13020146
and download the slides
or I guess get the book.

You see there that Smolin is not talking about the KNOWN laws of physics.
but rather about the EVOLVING regularities in the process called the universe WHICH except in an approximate sense WE DO NOT KNOW.

the concept of evolution is all-important here as he makes clear and underscores with quotes from richard feynman and charles sanders peirce

We only approximate these evolving regularities using our human languages, at any given moment we only have the provisionally best available, but this is not the issue.

What he is proposing is quite radical (though in line with the quotes from feynman and pierce) namely that these regularities are part of the temporal universe
they can be explained by past history like everything else
they are not eternal outside or above the ongoing process of the universe
everything that acts on events is acted upon, we know of no action that is not reciprocal in that sense, and so it is with these regularities.

Slides #4 and #5 are very important. I would urge you to go to 13020146 and click on the slides PDF and check it out. #4 makes the point that this analysis only applies to studying the universe as a whole. the traditional Newtonian scheme works fine for isolated subsystems where there is an outside observer. Then you analyze it as usual according to fixed external laws and initial conditions. He calls this the "Newtonian paradigm" and it is perfectly appropriate and works fine for studying isolated subsystems.
It is, however, fallacious to apply it to understanding the cosmos as a whole, he argues. And the main purpose of this book and the other one now at publishers is to develop some ideas for treating the universe as a whole (including its laws or evolving regularities)

Slide #5 makes explicit a specific form of the Leibnizian "principle of sufficient reason".
and another logical postulate that he is taking as basic rules of the game in this line of investigation.
 
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  • #60
Since we have turned a page, I will bring forward some links to what I think is most essential to the discussion.
==quote post #42==
It's important to realize that given the basic principles he's working with the usual laws of physics are not eternal outside the universe acting on the universe without themselves being acted on.
And it must be possible to explain WHY THESE LAWS?

Smolin takes a page from Richard Feynman here. Look at the last 35 seconds of this YouTube:

The sequence is 9:35 long. So drag the button to minute 8 or 9 to catch this part. Sir Fred
Hoyle and Feynman are drinking beer at a Yorkshire pub. If you start around minute 8:00 you get some of the atmosphere.

For a text of the conversation go here
http://calteches.library.caltech.edu/35/2/PointofView.htm
and scroll 3/5 of the way down the page. It is from a Caltech archive:
==quote==
It is interesting that in many other sciences there is a historical question, like in geology – the question of how did the Earth evolve to the present condition. In biology – how did the various species evolve to get to be the way they are? But the one field which has not admitted any evolutionary question is physics. Here are the laws, we say. Here are the laws today. How did they get that way? – we don't even think of it that way. We think: It has always been like that, the same laws – and we try to explain the universe that way. So it might turn out that they are not the same all the time and that there is a historical, evolutionary question.
==endquote==

In Smolin's picture, a metalaw of causation, building up events layer by layer, allows regularities to emerge (somewhat as they do in legal systems respecting precedent, that so to speak poll legal precedents). In these emergent regularities we recognize laws of physics.

to explain why these laws, we must (as Feynman suggested) have an historical evolutionary process. Analogous to the way we explain why the various animal species.

So that is why under the given assumptions, time must be real. :biggrin:

I seriously recommend people watch this video lecture
http://pirsa.org/13020146/
given in the Quantum Foundations seminar at Perimeter on 26 February of this year.
"The universe as a process of unique events"

==endquote==

I could be wrong but I think that PIRSA 13020146 video lecture and the accompanying slides PDF has the core argument of the book. I will be getting the book, to check that this is so.
 
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  • #61
marcus said:
For a text of the conversation go here
http://calteches.library.caltech.edu/35/2/PointofView.htm
and scroll 3/5 of the way down the page. It is from a Caltech archive:
==quote==
It is interesting that in many other sciences there is a historical question, like in geology – the question of how did the Earth evolve to the present condition. In biology – how did the various species evolve to get to be the way they are? But the one field which has not admitted any evolutionary question is physics. Here are the laws, we say. Here are the laws today. How did they get that way? – we don't even think of it that way. We think: It has always been like that, the same laws – and we try to explain the universe that way. So it might turn out that they are not the same all the time and that there is a historical, evolutionary question.
==endquote==

In Smolin's picture, a metalaw of causation, building up events layer by layer, allows regularities to emerge (somewhat as they do in legal systems respecting precedent, that so to speak poll legal precedents). In these emergent regularities we recognize laws of physics.
I'm very skeptical of this sort of view. Ultimately, I think a combination of a mathiverse a la Max Tegmark combined with a prolific universe similar to the string theory landscape are more likely solutions.
 
  • #62
Chalnoth said:
I'm very skeptical of this sort of view. Ultimately, I think a combination of a mathiverse a la Max Tegmark combined with a prolific universe similar to the string theory landscape are more likely solutions.

Right, :biggrin:

I was aware of your taste in the matter, and opinion as to what is "more likely".
De gustibus non disputandum est.

BTW I am not laying odds as to what is "more likely" or trying to pick winners. The two things that seem to me to matter here, that I care about, is what is interesting and what is testable.

I find it intensely interesting that someone constructs a world system in which certain laws of physics are not eternal and inexplicable but instead may have some reasonable explanation.
In which they are not givens, in other words.
 
  • #63
Laws depend on the circumstances underlying them. Why these laws could also read why these circumstances.
Take gravity for example 3 choices
1 The value of G was predetermined before the universe began
2 Did it start at 0 and settle at its current value for some unknown reason
3 It was decided by a third party (God)

Only with option 2 could the laws evolve, for 1 and 3 G is predetermined and so must be the law it is set by circumstances.
All systems require rules/laws to work but does an evolving system require the governing laws to evolve with it, is the universe such a system.
 
  • #64
Just to clarify option 1 in the last post.
This means the universe can start with any value of G but will only succeed if G has a certain value. So the universe can start and fail any number of times until the right mix allows it to succeed so is essentially a random process.
 
  • #65
Marcus said:
I find it intensely interesting that someone constructs a world system in which certain laws of physics are not eternal and inexplicable but instead may have some reasonable explanation.
In which they are not givens, in other words.
(My bolding) Someone like Smolin, or just whom? Certain laws, like GR geometry/gravity, the second law of thermodynamics or the values of say 1/137,c,h,e and G ? Eternal, or just good for lasting at least 13 billion years? Inexplicable --- by those like myself, certainly; by the Einstein/Witten class of folk? Reasonable, like the complete bootstrap scenario?

An interesting remark worth amplifying, Marcus.
 
  • #66
Adrian07 said:
Laws depend on the circumstances underlying them. Why these laws could also read why these circumstances.
Take gravity for example 3 choices
1 The value of G was predetermined before the universe began
2 Did it start at 0 and settle at its current value for some unknown reason
3 It was decided by a third party (God)

Only with option 2 could the laws evolve, for 1 and 3 G is predetermined and so must be the law it is set by circumstances.
All systems require rules/laws to work but does an evolving system require the governing laws to evolve with it, is the universe such a system.

Let me add a 4. The universe did not start with gravity (gravity = 0) and its value is changing as the universe goes through various phase transitions. All of the visible universe at this time is in the same phase so its value appears constant to us.
 
  • #67
marcus said:
Right, :biggrin:

I was aware of your taste in the matter, and opinion as to what is "more likely".
De gustibus non disputandum est.

BTW I am not laying odds as to what is "more likely" or trying to pick winners. The two things that seem to me to matter here, that I care about, is what is interesting and what is testable.

I find it intensely interesting that someone constructs a world system in which certain laws of physics are not eternal and inexplicable but instead may have some reasonable explanation.
In which they are not givens, in other words.
I guess I'm just more interested in what's likely to be correct, rather than just playing in a sandbox to make something that looks neat. To be fair, I think it is ultimately extremely useful for physics for there to be lots of people who just like playing with models and taking, "What if?" questions to the extreme.

And ultimately, I just don't think it's likely that the laws of physics are the way they are because they had to be that way due to some fundamental behavior of the universe. I think this is a human conceit that probably has little to no application to reality, not when we're talking about how our low-energy laws of physics came to be.
 
  • #68
Thanks for explaining your position on the matter, Chalnoth.
Chalnoth said:
I'm very skeptical of this sort of view. Ultimately, I think a combination of a mathiverse a la Max Tegmark combined with a prolific universe similar to the string theory landscape are more likely solutions.
 
  • #69
I have a question about the OP Perimeter lecture of Smolin http://pirsa.org/13020146/ from approx 44.00: Here Smolin concludes that Spacetime emerges from the equations.

This part is strange to me. Maybe just because I can't read the equations. :-) But also because It seems to me that space logically was there from the start when the concept of an event is introduced. I fail to understand how an event can take place if not in a space of some kind.

The way I see it: Any ”event” must contain some kind of change otherwise nothing has happened.

Either the change can happen internally in an entity: A change in a level of energy for example. For that to happen you need the excess energy to go somewhere else/the missing energy to come somewhere else from. So you've automaticly introduced another place outside the entity. You need at least two places for energy to go away or arrive.

Or a change can involve two or more entities. Like two entities hitting each other, one entity splitting up, two or more entities absorbing each other. Again this kind of change requires more than one place.

So it seems to me any change would require that at least two separate entities are involved. Separated not only in time but spacially – am I wrong here?

So doesn't that indicate that space is already present in any model where events can happen?

Also Smolin's introduces ”momentum” as being a primitive in the model – just a number from a colorimeter, but indicating direction and energy, he says.

But here it seems to me that he adds ”direction” to the model. And by then it looks to me as if spacetime has been put in the model in the form of Distance, Direction and Time.

So I don't understand how spacetime can be emerging, Wasn't it there already – introduced when ”time” ”events” and ”momentum” were put in the diagrams and formulaes?

Hope someon can help me understand this better.

Henrik
 
  • #71
Thanks for spotting that Edge monologue by Smolin. It's wide-ranging and enlightening, I think.
 
  • #72
This is Smolin at SETI June 24.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QIJtICy-vE&feature=c4-overview-vl&list=PL7B4FE6C62DCB34E1
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i just watched it and, as usual took notes.
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i don't know everything about him, only that i get him; I've thought a lot of the same things.
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He's a devout relativist.
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Basically, his theory is that when black holes form they create daughter universes in which the rules are only slightly changed from this. In General Relativity mass/energy is not conserved, thus the mass of the resultant daughter universes are either randomized somehow or the parameters are unknown [i'm guessing here]. Further, since this is an ongoing process of universal birthing, universes which produced the most black holes would have the most antecedents and those antecedents [importantly including us] would therefore evolve to be fecund and to have many black holes. He says there are a billion billion in the known universe. i assume he means "currently."
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He reasons that if this theory is true it must be testable. He deduced that neutron stars, if he is correct, must have a physical limit of two solar masses. He claims that this prediction is looking good. Further, he says that if you try to slightly tweak any of the 30 physical parameters in the standard model that at least 12 of the parameters are tuned to maximize the number of black holes in the universe.
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Needless to say, if he is correct, his would a remarkable result. But note, he rejects parallel universes. In fact, in answer to a question, he remarks that Gödel's proof only relates to maths which admit infinite sets. i think he's an advocate for a finite universe, as am i.
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He mentions the "cosmological fallacy": The mistake is to think an experiment in the lab can translate to the entire universe. My example of this is that entropy is only defined in a closed system, yet cosmologists love to toss the term around anyway re the entire universe.
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He clarifies that he's not Darwinian and his theory of evolution is only that our universe is likely the result of maximization of black hole production..."...locally extremizing the number of black holes..."
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Space and gravity are emergent, and time is not. This is the big one where we agree. It's how i found out about him...trying to find somebody who agreed. i think he takes the energy as elemental and dependent upon initial conditions, but frankly, I'm still not sure where he is on energy. i'd like to hear him say energy over time creates space and gravity, but i have yet to hear that one.
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Yep, that's Smolin alright.
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  • #73
Smolin doesn't explain what happens when the black holes evaporate, or new stuff falls in. Not in this lecture anyway. By George i think we have a new plot for the Simpsons!
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  • #74
negativzero said:
...He reasons that if this theory is true it must be testable. He deduced that neutron stars, if he is correct, must have a physical limit of two solar masses. He claims that this prediction is looking good...
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Thanks for the video talk link and for sharing your notes. I watched the hour talk. I would recommend others to start at around minute 30:00 and watch the second half hour.
There's also an excellent Pirsa talk from February 2013 that covers the main ideas, actually more completely in several cases.
 
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  • #75
Marcus i love you and you know that. Ever since you got the restraining order because i wuz sleeepin on yer roof.
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But no.
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2. Two. Dos masas solaris, Amigo.
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  • #76
Ooops, I already edited from 3 to 2 before I saw your post. Yeah, two solar masses, it comes right around minute 60 in the talk---1:00:00

The link to the February 2013 talk is one I gave in post#1 and I still think it's the best:
http://pirsa.org/13020146/

It must have been somebody else's roof.
 
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  • #77
But reading over my post i realize that i didn't EMpHasiZe the fact that he contends that he and we all experience the moment. Crucially, he finds no moment of experience in math or physics, nor does he find the human experience of a sequence of moments in physics. Thus math and physics fail. He is not a religious zealot but he believes in his own experience of the moment. He thinks about a lot of stuff but he believes the moment. He seeks a physics which depicts reality itself as a series of moments.
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He and i may diverge somewhat here since i think EVERYthing is in the present. The present is just the sum of the past as the consequences of stuff that has happened is simply brought forward to now. And the future is merely a subset of the present which we designate "predictions." I'm pretty sure he wants to be able to distinguish the past from the present. My point is that this could be a difficult thing to do considering that we are stuck in the present. Unless we can examine the past from the present we can't get anywhere. Everything we know about the past is in the present. The only way we can confirm that there was a past is to check with current circumstances. This is science after all. But i am perfectly willing to point out evidence of the past in the moment.
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i can always wish that deep down in his heart, my new fav cosmetologist thinks everything exists in the present just like li'l me.
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  • #78
i notice I'm not the only one to appreciate your efforts Marcus.
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  • #79
To Hernik:
You wrote, among other things: "I have a question about the OP Perimeter lecture of Smolin http://pirsa.org/13020146/ from approx 44.00: Here Smolin concludes that Spacetime emerges from the equations.

This part is strange to me. Maybe just because I can't read the equations. :-) But also because It seems to me that space logically was there from the start when the concept of an event is introduced. I fail to understand how an event can take place if not in a space of some kind..."
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i too was struck by Smolin's claim that he sees space-time emerging from the his Knopf algebra. Perhaps all i can do is commiserate with you, but i do have a take on your question.
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Of course he is not declaring that he discovered a physical space, he's talking about finding mathematical descriptions of space in the math.
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Briefly, any sequentiality can been seen as space-like in one dimension. Any series of two pronged forks in the world path of a particle can be seen as 2-dimensional, to the extent that the decision trees for the particles described can be viewed as covering or at least spreading across a plane. To me, this two-dimensionality looks fractal in detail but since fractals can have fractional dimensionality i suppose you could correctly say that his simple tree diagrams approach 2 dimensionality.
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So, given the simple rules for his decision tree diagrams, he begins with a 1-D space-like sequence of events and then connects daughter events such that, as generations are produced, the history of the process takes on a 2-D structure. 2 dimensions is space. If i remember correctly, he said there were some problems extending this notion to 3-D, but since the advent of the holographic principle, he may not consider this to be a fatal flaw. After all, if 3-D is the illusion, 2 dimensions should be enough.
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You also voice concern regarding what you see as an a priori assumption of space for the momentum to inhabit. Have you considered that space is an unneeded construct? What science can measure is fields, more accurately it measures fields on fields. When a physicist predicts all the places a particle might go by tunneling or otherwise, he is describing predictions given fields. "Space" may be a superfluous concept. So for the purposes of these few paragraphs i define space as the places defined by fields where energy can go.
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Smolin's biggest contribution to cosmology may be his theory that from the inside, black holes are new universes similar to ours but possessing a mass not necessarily equal to the imploding mass of the hole as seen from outside the black hole. Mass/energy is not conserved in General Relativity. Lagranges constrain the mass energy, but once the energy goes past the event horizon, the constraints are lost or at least mooshed around. The geometry of the black hole is cut off from the rest of the universe in a non-trivial way. Thus the new universe can have more mass than the stuff that fell in.
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Presumably these new universes expand. Stuff collapsing into the hole initiates the expansion of space perceived from within the hole. So which came first? The stuff, or the space?
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My read, and this is personal, is that the potential for energy to move IS space. Space emerges from the movement of mass/energy. Space is any place a thing could go. But particles determine where they can go according to the rules of fields in their environment. Since gravity, and anti-gravity in the form of dark matter are features of space, i would say that energy over time creates space, gravity, and dark energy.
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Whether the celebritous Dr. Smolin agrees completely with me, i don't know. But we are surely of the same ilk.
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What i think that Smolin hasn't voiced, is that the expansion of space is due to the presence of mass/energy over time. Over time, there are more and more possible places where a particle can be. That IS the expansion of space.
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Your fellow enthusiast,
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  • #80
negativzero, me2. A couple of years back I rebelled against the notion that the past and future exist and can be traveled to (HG Wells etc). I now believe that only the instant of the present exists. I don't know how big or long the present is though, could it be described as a singularity?
 
  • #81
Tanelorn said:
negativzero, me2. A couple of years back I rebelled against the notion that the past and future exist and can be traveled to (HG Wells etc). I now believe that only the instant of the present exists. I don't know how big or long the present is though, could it be described as a singularity?
The statement, "only the present exists," doesn't make sense in the light of what we know about relativity.

The issue is that there is no unique definition of "present": different observers will necessarily see different time slicings of the universe as present.
 
  • #82
Thanks for your response Chalnoth!
i would put it differently. i'd rather say that GR doesn't distinguish between past, present, and future, but Smolin wants to.
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From the point of view of the pointlike observer, with an instinctive and semantic need to tell the difference, it's difficult to drop references to the past or future. But since this is really about Smolin, it's quite clear that he is adding something to GR. He is adding the human experience of the moment, and a sequence of moments, which add up to a lifetime. Smolin is not delimited by GR in this matter.
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Moreover, he's a guy who is looking for the theory of everything physical. Whether the reader believes such a theory could exist or not, Smolin is seeking what is likely an equation which can be considered as a sum. i put it this way. From my pointlike view, the present is the sum of the past, and the future is a small bit of side logic in the present, which side logic predicts sometimes better sometimes worse. i.e. everything is present. And GR doesn't contradict me either.
Your pointlike compadre,
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  • #83
Chalnoth, I agree with you, and would modify what I said to say that only the present exists and it a unique present for each frame of reference.

I don't know if this helps, but I have often pondered how would one create make or build a physical Universe? What are you going to make it of, and where are you going to keep it? It is quite mind boggling to me and probably doesn't help much.. but I think Smolin is attempting to provide possible answers, not that we can probably ever know if they are correct, but I personally am most interested in these kind of models which offer these kinds of possible answers. The mathematical modeling approaches are unfortunately well beyond me and I suspect that they cannot ultimately answer these types of questions.
 
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  • #84
Tanelorn,
"...could [the present: edit] be described as a singularity?"
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If i knew what a physical singularity was for absolute sure, i might be able to answer that. But i can't really get a grip on the mathematical variety of singularness. Oh woe!
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Since the experience of the moment is a feature of human perception, the present occupies an interval, at least in the mind of man. In physics, peeps usually want some kind of instantaneous present...a point in time, some would say.
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i think both Teller, and Feynman agree that what distinguishes the past from the present is collapse. When the wave form collapses the event is securely in the past. Yet even the collapse seems to occur over an interval of some kind.
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Smolin suggested a model of the past and present using Knopf algebra where the past had at least two daughter events and the present had none or only one. i found this to be quite tidy and convenient mathematically but he didn't really present a definition for future, even though he professed a desire to construct a math where past present and future have meaning and where time exists.
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Anyway, i seriously don't know the answers, but i like your questions Tanelorn.
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  • #85
Thanks negativzero, I like both your questions and answers! I am only any good at questions, I get banned and booed here if I try to talk about answers! In fact I have several times thought of suggesting a sister site to this one, which does not have issues with open discussion. What do you say?
 
  • #86
Free expression is a wonderful thing. Some of the folks here are pretty bright though, and they are trained at, steeped in, brainwashed with, physics. Cool!
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i come to check out whether I'm making any sense at all. Luckily marcus had this thread going on Smolin and his quantum loop crowd and i finally found a significant physicist who not only agreed in private, but was willing to stake his reputation on some pretty far out stuff. The guy has balls. The voice of Woody Allen, and the balls of Stephen Colbert.
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i had a similar experience to you. i suggested that a good literary metaphor for time is the abacus. Some say time is a river, or a road, or cyclic, or a snake eating it's tail, or a dime a dance romance, but the abacus brings forward all the calculations one makes in a present physical form. Like the universe.
...Summarily deleted and warned..."NOT PHYSICS!"
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i know. It's a metaphor. You can say the Newtonian universe is clocklike, or is like a computer, or that the universe is it's own mathematics, but apparently the abacus is too old fashioned for the avant garde physics of this era. [insert image of yelling baby here.]
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Cool! I'm an evil man with an evil plan to construct metaphors, and loose them on an unsuspecting world! HA! [insert evil grimace here.]
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  • #87
negativz, I like the way you think and talk and you have such a lot of energy the kind of which I unfortunately don't have too much left of these days at age 51 or is it 52.. :(

Again I do like all these ideas very much, but just like mathematics, poetry and metaphors probably also will only get us so far, so be prepared for a level of disappointment. We do not know first cause and probably will never be certain of it. So I suspect all that we can ultimately do is write down every possibility that we can possibly think up and hope that we have them all covered. So let's get brainstorming and writing them all down and use SETI to find an 8B year old civilization to compare notes :)
 
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  • #88
Yes! The million monkeys at a million keyboards answer! Brute word crunching. {The tax codes were written this way.}
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It was expensive. All the monkey chow, all the waste.
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And then someone pointed out that even though my capuchins could type with hands AND feet, that there were about 50 keys and the shift button. So for any lengthy work such as, "the whole theory of everything in 50 words or less [not counting the title]," you are actually talking about 300 or so keystrokes. There are about 100^300 permutations the monkeys could come up with, which permutations would specifically NOT be the whole theory of everything, for any 300 keystrokes.
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A google is only 10^100.
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Obviously, i needed more monkeys.
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The above is a parable. Parables are literary. But Smolin, i think, has found himself in a similar situation with string theory. Millions and millions of theories are available, but which ones represent reality? Critics say string theory is untestable so far. So no one can pick a theory.
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Similarly he is disenchanted with loop quantum gravity. i think he made it clear here:
http://www.edge.org/conversation/think-about-nature
this link was also given in the thread above.
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You were saying that we will never know first cause, but isn't it amazing that so many things are agreed upon right now in cosmology? That there is expansion. Something like a start. That the atomic theory is important to understanding the universe, and the universe itself has a quantum nature. But agreeing on stuff is not knowing it. Smolin believes in the moment.
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Me too.
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Now try and figure out what a moment is.
In tennis, the moment is what i should have done 1/10th second ago.
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  • #89
Tanelorn said:
Chalnoth, I agree with you, and would modify what I said to say that only the present exists and it a unique present for each frame of reference.
That doesn't make any sense. How can existence be an observer-dependent property?

Anyway, in General Relativity, the result is completely unambiguous: the past, present, and future are all described by a single four-dimensional manifold. The future has as much real existence as the past or present. So yes, if it were possible to construct a traversable space-time path that led back to the past, you could certainly traverse that path to get there.
 
  • #90
Chalnoth, are you not using mathematics to prove one possible view of reality, but that view might yet still not be the truth of our reality? Sure we can write down a coordinate as consisting of three spatial numbers and a temporal one and then we can think that this unique 4D point really does exist forever and that with the right technology we can travel there. In our minds it does, and I used to believe it that way myself (HG Wells etc), but I am now no longer so sure that it accurately represents reality. I now believe that we would literally need to somehow create another Universe exactly like ours and let it exist until that moment in time has been reached again in order to experience that unique moment of time and existence again. Past, present or future moments, once the moment has happened it is over and gone.

I agree that every moment in the past did exist for a fleetingly short time, but now these moments are gone, and the past ceases to exist as soon as time has marched on to the next moment. So I am suggesting that we exist in a completely transitory universe, in effect here today and gone tomorrow. It is my view of the nature of time and reality that has changed, I no longer see a moment in time as being like the three dimensions and coordinates of space and somewhere that we can travel to. All that ever remains of any moment in the past is the information, which determines through cause and effect of particle interactions the next instantaneous moment of the present. The present being no larger than: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck_time.

To sum up, moments in time are not being stored in perpetuity and reality exists only in the movement of time as it creates each new present.
I found this amusing, relevant and predictable when I read about it because either we go extinct or no one in the next 10^100 years is able to travel to a past moment in time:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...king-held-party-time-travellers--turned-.htmlnegativz we cannot ever know first cause because every time we think we have found it we then need to ask ok but what caused that first cause? The greatest tragedy of our existence is not that we are mortal but that we almost certainly pass without ever knowing what something approaching first cause is, and what it really was all about.
 
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  • #91
Tanelorn said:
Chalnoth, are you not using mathematics to prove one possible view of reality, but that view might yet still not be the truth of our reality?
I don't think there's any question that General Relativity accurately describes the large-scale behavior of our universe. It's just too well-tested for that. There's no question that the theory breaks down at very strong space-time curvature, or that it has to be modified to take into account quantum mechanics. But there's also good reason to be extremely confident that it has the general, large-scale picture correct.

Tanelorn said:
Sure we can write down a coordinate as consisting of three spatial numbers and a temporal one and then we can think that this unique 4D point really does exist forever
I think the problem here is that you're thinking of some sort of "super time" that exists outside of the time we experience. This isn't the case: there's just time. A point in the past doesn't "always" exist. It exists in the past. The past is perhaps best understood as another location, separated from us in a direction we can't actually point.

There may be good reasons why time machines are impossible, but this isn't one of them.
 
  • #92
I am still trying to find the right words to describe what I meant and the closest metaphor I can find is the way that a computer generates a 3D world in a 3D game. Each moment is calculated on the moment that came immediately before, and when the calculation is complete, the moment and information is lost or discarded. Reality in this model is therefore a succession of moments and the past is gone. Can such a view be disproved?
 
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  • #93
Tanelorn said:
I am still trying to find the right words to describe what I meant and the closest metaphor I can find is the way that a computer generates a 3D world in a 3D game. Each moment is calculatated on the moment the one that came immediately before it and when the calculation is complete the moment and information is lost or discarded. Reality in this model is a succession of moments.
Right. I know what you're trying to say. I don't think it is a workable model, however. The problem is that another viewer might see a different slice in time.

The way I like to understand the way this works instead is that the physical laws provide a system of constraints. If you were to take the entire wavefunction of the universe at one particular time-slicing, you could, had you a powerful enough computer, compute the precise wavefunction of the universe for every other time-slicing. No time-slicing is more or less real than any other, and there isn't a sense in which one time slicing ceases to exist as another comes into existence: that view can't work in light of the fact that different observers see intersecting time slices.

The really interesting bits are in how we can translate from this "bird's eye" view of the universe to our own view.
 
  • #94
Sequentiality is a timelike feature of the pointlike perspective. i don't see how that makes it's timeline false or that sequentiality from another point of view is necessarily contradictory. Not that anyone said that, but i hold out hope that there will be a picture of time in physics that includes time as fundamental, and doesn't deny the human perspective.
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Smolin is trying to build a quantum picture of what is going on, and that, to a large extent, is going to be about particles. Particles are pretty pointlike. He begins with conservation of momentum which drives the process to the next event, in a series of events.
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His models require event generators, which are laws which constrain the propagation
of momenta in the creation of new events. So you have a bunch of [particles] interacting, momenta constrained in a series of events, and then he defines past as having a sufficient number of daughter events (at least 2) and the present as having an insufficient number of daughter events (1 or none) to pass the test of a past event.
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Notice he's not just taking the point of view of one event, or one series of conserved momenta. He's looking at the whole crowd of events and picking which constitute past and which constitute present.
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Pretty nifty really. Omniscient?
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[i should say he's not advocating this theory, it's just one of the models he's been thinking about.]
 
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  • #95
Due to the nature of time, our reality can only ever exist in the ever moving Planck time slice of the present and can only be dependent on the particle interactions from the immediately preceding Planck time slice.

None of the other past time slices interact physically on the present time slice any more than those of the future do, and so from our point of view they no longer exist.
 
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  • #96
Tanelorn said:
Due to the nature of time, our reality can only ever exist in the ever moving Planck time slice of the present and can only be dependent on the particle interactions from the immediately preceding Planck time slice.

None of the other past time slices interact physically on the present time slice any more than those of the future do, and so from our point of view they no longer exist.
By that definition, there are no interactions at all.
 
  • #97
I am saying that only what is going on in the immediately preceding time slice has an effect on the new present time slice.
 
  • #98
Tanelorn said:
I am saying that only what is going on in the immediately preceding time slice has an effect on the new present time slice.
Well, no. If you have all of the information of the immediately-following slice, you can also compute the full configuration of the current slice. For that matter, if you have any time slice at all, you can (with enough processing power), compute any other slice. So there's no way in which the immediately-preceding slice is unique in this regard.
 
  • #99
Chalnoth said:
Well, no. If you have all of the information of the immediately-following slice, you can also compute the full configuration of the current slice. For that matter, if you have any time slice at all, you can (with enough processing power), compute any other slice. So there's no way in which the immediately-preceding slice is unique in this regard.

Yes, but the only time slice needed to determine the next time slice is the one immediately before. None of the other time slices are required, or have any effect on the present time slice, and therefore they are no longer real. Only the ever moving present time slice is real.

It all depends on how time outside of the present time slice works and whether time is perpetual or as I describing an ever moving very thin slice of present time. A perpetual model of time would require the storage of at least 10^44 copies of the entire universe per second. Since our movement through time cannot ever be broken anyway, perpetual time seems wasteful and nature does not like waste. So I now question HG Wells model of time.
 
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  • #100
Tanelorn said:
Yes, but the only time slice needed to determine the next time slice is the one immediately before. None of the other time slices are required,
What do you mean by, "required?" Any time slice is sufficient. Doesn't matter which one. You don't need the immediately-preceding one. You can pick any time slice you want.

Tanelorn said:
or have any effect on the present time slice, and therefore they are no longer real. Only the ever moving present time slice is real.
So, according to you, a different observer moving relative to me who sees a different time slicing interprets most of my present time slice as being not real.

How does that make any sense?

Furthermore, this definition of reality includes parts of the universe that always have been and always will be causally disconnected from an observer.
 

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