Radical new take on *uni*verse questions by Smolin, could be important

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Smolin's upcoming book "Time Reborn" presents a radical perspective on the universe, emphasizing that laws of nature are not fixed but evolve over time, challenging the traditional "block universe" concept. In a recent talk at Perimeter, he outlines principles based on historical figures like Leibniz, arguing against timeless laws and advocating for a universe that explains itself without external references. The first half of the talk is accessible, while the latter delves into complex simulations of spacetime dynamics. Audience engagement, particularly from Rob Myers and Laurent Freidel, highlights the high-risk nature of Smolin's theories, which could significantly alter foundational physics. Overall, the discussion invites further exploration of these innovative ideas and their implications for understanding time and the laws governing the universe.
  • #61
marcus said:
For a text of the conversation go here
http://calteches.library.caltech.edu/35/2/PointofView.htm
and scroll 3/5 of the way down the page. It is from a Caltech archive:
==quote==
It is interesting that in many other sciences there is a historical question, like in geology – the question of how did the Earth evolve to the present condition. In biology – how did the various species evolve to get to be the way they are? But the one field which has not admitted any evolutionary question is physics. Here are the laws, we say. Here are the laws today. How did they get that way? – we don't even think of it that way. We think: It has always been like that, the same laws – and we try to explain the universe that way. So it might turn out that they are not the same all the time and that there is a historical, evolutionary question.
==endquote==

In Smolin's picture, a metalaw of causation, building up events layer by layer, allows regularities to emerge (somewhat as they do in legal systems respecting precedent, that so to speak poll legal precedents). In these emergent regularities we recognize laws of physics.
I'm very skeptical of this sort of view. Ultimately, I think a combination of a mathiverse a la Max Tegmark combined with a prolific universe similar to the string theory landscape are more likely solutions.
 
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  • #62
Chalnoth said:
I'm very skeptical of this sort of view. Ultimately, I think a combination of a mathiverse a la Max Tegmark combined with a prolific universe similar to the string theory landscape are more likely solutions.

Right, :biggrin:

I was aware of your taste in the matter, and opinion as to what is "more likely".
De gustibus non disputandum est.

BTW I am not laying odds as to what is "more likely" or trying to pick winners. The two things that seem to me to matter here, that I care about, is what is interesting and what is testable.

I find it intensely interesting that someone constructs a world system in which certain laws of physics are not eternal and inexplicable but instead may have some reasonable explanation.
In which they are not givens, in other words.
 
  • #63
Laws depend on the circumstances underlying them. Why these laws could also read why these circumstances.
Take gravity for example 3 choices
1 The value of G was predetermined before the universe began
2 Did it start at 0 and settle at its current value for some unknown reason
3 It was decided by a third party (God)

Only with option 2 could the laws evolve, for 1 and 3 G is predetermined and so must be the law it is set by circumstances.
All systems require rules/laws to work but does an evolving system require the governing laws to evolve with it, is the universe such a system.
 
  • #64
Just to clarify option 1 in the last post.
This means the universe can start with any value of G but will only succeed if G has a certain value. So the universe can start and fail any number of times until the right mix allows it to succeed so is essentially a random process.
 
  • #65
Marcus said:
I find it intensely interesting that someone constructs a world system in which certain laws of physics are not eternal and inexplicable but instead may have some reasonable explanation.
In which they are not givens, in other words.
(My bolding) Someone like Smolin, or just whom? Certain laws, like GR geometry/gravity, the second law of thermodynamics or the values of say 1/137,c,h,e and G ? Eternal, or just good for lasting at least 13 billion years? Inexplicable --- by those like myself, certainly; by the Einstein/Witten class of folk? Reasonable, like the complete bootstrap scenario?

An interesting remark worth amplifying, Marcus.
 
  • #66
Adrian07 said:
Laws depend on the circumstances underlying them. Why these laws could also read why these circumstances.
Take gravity for example 3 choices
1 The value of G was predetermined before the universe began
2 Did it start at 0 and settle at its current value for some unknown reason
3 It was decided by a third party (God)

Only with option 2 could the laws evolve, for 1 and 3 G is predetermined and so must be the law it is set by circumstances.
All systems require rules/laws to work but does an evolving system require the governing laws to evolve with it, is the universe such a system.

Let me add a 4. The universe did not start with gravity (gravity = 0) and its value is changing as the universe goes through various phase transitions. All of the visible universe at this time is in the same phase so its value appears constant to us.
 
  • #67
marcus said:
Right, :biggrin:

I was aware of your taste in the matter, and opinion as to what is "more likely".
De gustibus non disputandum est.

BTW I am not laying odds as to what is "more likely" or trying to pick winners. The two things that seem to me to matter here, that I care about, is what is interesting and what is testable.

I find it intensely interesting that someone constructs a world system in which certain laws of physics are not eternal and inexplicable but instead may have some reasonable explanation.
In which they are not givens, in other words.
I guess I'm just more interested in what's likely to be correct, rather than just playing in a sandbox to make something that looks neat. To be fair, I think it is ultimately extremely useful for physics for there to be lots of people who just like playing with models and taking, "What if?" questions to the extreme.

And ultimately, I just don't think it's likely that the laws of physics are the way they are because they had to be that way due to some fundamental behavior of the universe. I think this is a human conceit that probably has little to no application to reality, not when we're talking about how our low-energy laws of physics came to be.
 
  • #68
Thanks for explaining your position on the matter, Chalnoth.
Chalnoth said:
I'm very skeptical of this sort of view. Ultimately, I think a combination of a mathiverse a la Max Tegmark combined with a prolific universe similar to the string theory landscape are more likely solutions.
 
  • #69
I have a question about the OP Perimeter lecture of Smolin http://pirsa.org/13020146/ from approx 44.00: Here Smolin concludes that Spacetime emerges from the equations.

This part is strange to me. Maybe just because I can't read the equations. :-) But also because It seems to me that space logically was there from the start when the concept of an event is introduced. I fail to understand how an event can take place if not in a space of some kind.

The way I see it: Any ”event” must contain some kind of change otherwise nothing has happened.

Either the change can happen internally in an entity: A change in a level of energy for example. For that to happen you need the excess energy to go somewhere else/the missing energy to come somewhere else from. So you've automaticly introduced another place outside the entity. You need at least two places for energy to go away or arrive.

Or a change can involve two or more entities. Like two entities hitting each other, one entity splitting up, two or more entities absorbing each other. Again this kind of change requires more than one place.

So it seems to me any change would require that at least two separate entities are involved. Separated not only in time but spacially – am I wrong here?

So doesn't that indicate that space is already present in any model where events can happen?

Also Smolin's introduces ”momentum” as being a primitive in the model – just a number from a colorimeter, but indicating direction and energy, he says.

But here it seems to me that he adds ”direction” to the model. And by then it looks to me as if spacetime has been put in the model in the form of Distance, Direction and Time.

So I don't understand how spacetime can be emerging, Wasn't it there already – introduced when ”time” ”events” and ”momentum” were put in the diagrams and formulaes?

Hope someon can help me understand this better.

Henrik
 
  • #71
Thanks for spotting that Edge monologue by Smolin. It's wide-ranging and enlightening, I think.
 
  • #72
This is Smolin at SETI June 24.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QIJtICy-vE&feature=c4-overview-vl&list=PL7B4FE6C62DCB34E1
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i just watched it and, as usual took notes.
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i don't know everything about him, only that i get him; I've thought a lot of the same things.
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He's a devout relativist.
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Basically, his theory is that when black holes form they create daughter universes in which the rules are only slightly changed from this. In General Relativity mass/energy is not conserved, thus the mass of the resultant daughter universes are either randomized somehow or the parameters are unknown [i'm guessing here]. Further, since this is an ongoing process of universal birthing, universes which produced the most black holes would have the most antecedents and those antecedents [importantly including us] would therefore evolve to be fecund and to have many black holes. He says there are a billion billion in the known universe. i assume he means "currently."
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He reasons that if this theory is true it must be testable. He deduced that neutron stars, if he is correct, must have a physical limit of two solar masses. He claims that this prediction is looking good. Further, he says that if you try to slightly tweak any of the 30 physical parameters in the standard model that at least 12 of the parameters are tuned to maximize the number of black holes in the universe.
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Needless to say, if he is correct, his would a remarkable result. But note, he rejects parallel universes. In fact, in answer to a question, he remarks that Gödel's proof only relates to maths which admit infinite sets. i think he's an advocate for a finite universe, as am i.
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He mentions the "cosmological fallacy": The mistake is to think an experiment in the lab can translate to the entire universe. My example of this is that entropy is only defined in a closed system, yet cosmologists love to toss the term around anyway re the entire universe.
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He clarifies that he's not Darwinian and his theory of evolution is only that our universe is likely the result of maximization of black hole production..."...locally extremizing the number of black holes..."
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Space and gravity are emergent, and time is not. This is the big one where we agree. It's how i found out about him...trying to find somebody who agreed. i think he takes the energy as elemental and dependent upon initial conditions, but frankly, I'm still not sure where he is on energy. i'd like to hear him say energy over time creates space and gravity, but i have yet to hear that one.
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Yep, that's Smolin alright.
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  • #73
Smolin doesn't explain what happens when the black holes evaporate, or new stuff falls in. Not in this lecture anyway. By George i think we have a new plot for the Simpsons!
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  • #74
negativzero said:
...He reasons that if this theory is true it must be testable. He deduced that neutron stars, if he is correct, must have a physical limit of two solar masses. He claims that this prediction is looking good...
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Thanks for the video talk link and for sharing your notes. I watched the hour talk. I would recommend others to start at around minute 30:00 and watch the second half hour.
There's also an excellent Pirsa talk from February 2013 that covers the main ideas, actually more completely in several cases.
 
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  • #75
Marcus i love you and you know that. Ever since you got the restraining order because i wuz sleeepin on yer roof.
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But no.
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2. Two. Dos masas solaris, Amigo.
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  • #76
Ooops, I already edited from 3 to 2 before I saw your post. Yeah, two solar masses, it comes right around minute 60 in the talk---1:00:00

The link to the February 2013 talk is one I gave in post#1 and I still think it's the best:
http://pirsa.org/13020146/

It must have been somebody else's roof.
 
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  • #77
But reading over my post i realize that i didn't EMpHasiZe the fact that he contends that he and we all experience the moment. Crucially, he finds no moment of experience in math or physics, nor does he find the human experience of a sequence of moments in physics. Thus math and physics fail. He is not a religious zealot but he believes in his own experience of the moment. He thinks about a lot of stuff but he believes the moment. He seeks a physics which depicts reality itself as a series of moments.
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He and i may diverge somewhat here since i think EVERYthing is in the present. The present is just the sum of the past as the consequences of stuff that has happened is simply brought forward to now. And the future is merely a subset of the present which we designate "predictions." I'm pretty sure he wants to be able to distinguish the past from the present. My point is that this could be a difficult thing to do considering that we are stuck in the present. Unless we can examine the past from the present we can't get anywhere. Everything we know about the past is in the present. The only way we can confirm that there was a past is to check with current circumstances. This is science after all. But i am perfectly willing to point out evidence of the past in the moment.
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i can always wish that deep down in his heart, my new fav cosmetologist thinks everything exists in the present just like li'l me.
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  • #78
i notice I'm not the only one to appreciate your efforts Marcus.
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  • #79
To Hernik:
You wrote, among other things: "I have a question about the OP Perimeter lecture of Smolin http://pirsa.org/13020146/ from approx 44.00: Here Smolin concludes that Spacetime emerges from the equations.

This part is strange to me. Maybe just because I can't read the equations. :-) But also because It seems to me that space logically was there from the start when the concept of an event is introduced. I fail to understand how an event can take place if not in a space of some kind..."
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i too was struck by Smolin's claim that he sees space-time emerging from the his Knopf algebra. Perhaps all i can do is commiserate with you, but i do have a take on your question.
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Of course he is not declaring that he discovered a physical space, he's talking about finding mathematical descriptions of space in the math.
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Briefly, any sequentiality can been seen as space-like in one dimension. Any series of two pronged forks in the world path of a particle can be seen as 2-dimensional, to the extent that the decision trees for the particles described can be viewed as covering or at least spreading across a plane. To me, this two-dimensionality looks fractal in detail but since fractals can have fractional dimensionality i suppose you could correctly say that his simple tree diagrams approach 2 dimensionality.
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So, given the simple rules for his decision tree diagrams, he begins with a 1-D space-like sequence of events and then connects daughter events such that, as generations are produced, the history of the process takes on a 2-D structure. 2 dimensions is space. If i remember correctly, he said there were some problems extending this notion to 3-D, but since the advent of the holographic principle, he may not consider this to be a fatal flaw. After all, if 3-D is the illusion, 2 dimensions should be enough.
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You also voice concern regarding what you see as an a priori assumption of space for the momentum to inhabit. Have you considered that space is an unneeded construct? What science can measure is fields, more accurately it measures fields on fields. When a physicist predicts all the places a particle might go by tunneling or otherwise, he is describing predictions given fields. "Space" may be a superfluous concept. So for the purposes of these few paragraphs i define space as the places defined by fields where energy can go.
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Smolin's biggest contribution to cosmology may be his theory that from the inside, black holes are new universes similar to ours but possessing a mass not necessarily equal to the imploding mass of the hole as seen from outside the black hole. Mass/energy is not conserved in General Relativity. Lagranges constrain the mass energy, but once the energy goes past the event horizon, the constraints are lost or at least mooshed around. The geometry of the black hole is cut off from the rest of the universe in a non-trivial way. Thus the new universe can have more mass than the stuff that fell in.
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Presumably these new universes expand. Stuff collapsing into the hole initiates the expansion of space perceived from within the hole. So which came first? The stuff, or the space?
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My read, and this is personal, is that the potential for energy to move IS space. Space emerges from the movement of mass/energy. Space is any place a thing could go. But particles determine where they can go according to the rules of fields in their environment. Since gravity, and anti-gravity in the form of dark matter are features of space, i would say that energy over time creates space, gravity, and dark energy.
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Whether the celebritous Dr. Smolin agrees completely with me, i don't know. But we are surely of the same ilk.
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What i think that Smolin hasn't voiced, is that the expansion of space is due to the presence of mass/energy over time. Over time, there are more and more possible places where a particle can be. That IS the expansion of space.
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Your fellow enthusiast,
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  • #80
negativzero, me2. A couple of years back I rebelled against the notion that the past and future exist and can be traveled to (HG Wells etc). I now believe that only the instant of the present exists. I don't know how big or long the present is though, could it be described as a singularity?
 
  • #81
Tanelorn said:
negativzero, me2. A couple of years back I rebelled against the notion that the past and future exist and can be traveled to (HG Wells etc). I now believe that only the instant of the present exists. I don't know how big or long the present is though, could it be described as a singularity?
The statement, "only the present exists," doesn't make sense in the light of what we know about relativity.

The issue is that there is no unique definition of "present": different observers will necessarily see different time slicings of the universe as present.
 
  • #82
Thanks for your response Chalnoth!
i would put it differently. i'd rather say that GR doesn't distinguish between past, present, and future, but Smolin wants to.
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From the point of view of the pointlike observer, with an instinctive and semantic need to tell the difference, it's difficult to drop references to the past or future. But since this is really about Smolin, it's quite clear that he is adding something to GR. He is adding the human experience of the moment, and a sequence of moments, which add up to a lifetime. Smolin is not delimited by GR in this matter.
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Moreover, he's a guy who is looking for the theory of everything physical. Whether the reader believes such a theory could exist or not, Smolin is seeking what is likely an equation which can be considered as a sum. i put it this way. From my pointlike view, the present is the sum of the past, and the future is a small bit of side logic in the present, which side logic predicts sometimes better sometimes worse. i.e. everything is present. And GR doesn't contradict me either.
Your pointlike compadre,
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  • #83
Chalnoth, I agree with you, and would modify what I said to say that only the present exists and it a unique present for each frame of reference.

I don't know if this helps, but I have often pondered how would one create make or build a physical Universe? What are you going to make it of, and where are you going to keep it? It is quite mind boggling to me and probably doesn't help much.. but I think Smolin is attempting to provide possible answers, not that we can probably ever know if they are correct, but I personally am most interested in these kind of models which offer these kinds of possible answers. The mathematical modeling approaches are unfortunately well beyond me and I suspect that they cannot ultimately answer these types of questions.
 
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  • #84
Tanelorn,
"...could [the present: edit] be described as a singularity?"
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If i knew what a physical singularity was for absolute sure, i might be able to answer that. But i can't really get a grip on the mathematical variety of singularness. Oh woe!
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Since the experience of the moment is a feature of human perception, the present occupies an interval, at least in the mind of man. In physics, peeps usually want some kind of instantaneous present...a point in time, some would say.
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i think both Teller, and Feynman agree that what distinguishes the past from the present is collapse. When the wave form collapses the event is securely in the past. Yet even the collapse seems to occur over an interval of some kind.
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Smolin suggested a model of the past and present using Knopf algebra where the past had at least two daughter events and the present had none or only one. i found this to be quite tidy and convenient mathematically but he didn't really present a definition for future, even though he professed a desire to construct a math where past present and future have meaning and where time exists.
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Anyway, i seriously don't know the answers, but i like your questions Tanelorn.
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  • #85
Thanks negativzero, I like both your questions and answers! I am only any good at questions, I get banned and booed here if I try to talk about answers! In fact I have several times thought of suggesting a sister site to this one, which does not have issues with open discussion. What do you say?
 
  • #86
Free expression is a wonderful thing. Some of the folks here are pretty bright though, and they are trained at, steeped in, brainwashed with, physics. Cool!
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i come to check out whether I'm making any sense at all. Luckily marcus had this thread going on Smolin and his quantum loop crowd and i finally found a significant physicist who not only agreed in private, but was willing to stake his reputation on some pretty far out stuff. The guy has balls. The voice of Woody Allen, and the balls of Stephen Colbert.
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i had a similar experience to you. i suggested that a good literary metaphor for time is the abacus. Some say time is a river, or a road, or cyclic, or a snake eating it's tail, or a dime a dance romance, but the abacus brings forward all the calculations one makes in a present physical form. Like the universe.
...Summarily deleted and warned..."NOT PHYSICS!"
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i know. It's a metaphor. You can say the Newtonian universe is clocklike, or is like a computer, or that the universe is it's own mathematics, but apparently the abacus is too old fashioned for the avant garde physics of this era. [insert image of yelling baby here.]
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Cool! I'm an evil man with an evil plan to construct metaphors, and loose them on an unsuspecting world! HA! [insert evil grimace here.]
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  • #87
negativz, I like the way you think and talk and you have such a lot of energy the kind of which I unfortunately don't have too much left of these days at age 51 or is it 52.. :(

Again I do like all these ideas very much, but just like mathematics, poetry and metaphors probably also will only get us so far, so be prepared for a level of disappointment. We do not know first cause and probably will never be certain of it. So I suspect all that we can ultimately do is write down every possibility that we can possibly think up and hope that we have them all covered. So let's get brainstorming and writing them all down and use SETI to find an 8B year old civilization to compare notes :)
 
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  • #88
Yes! The million monkeys at a million keyboards answer! Brute word crunching. {The tax codes were written this way.}
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It was expensive. All the monkey chow, all the waste.
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And then someone pointed out that even though my capuchins could type with hands AND feet, that there were about 50 keys and the shift button. So for any lengthy work such as, "the whole theory of everything in 50 words or less [not counting the title]," you are actually talking about 300 or so keystrokes. There are about 100^300 permutations the monkeys could come up with, which permutations would specifically NOT be the whole theory of everything, for any 300 keystrokes.
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A google is only 10^100.
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Obviously, i needed more monkeys.
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The above is a parable. Parables are literary. But Smolin, i think, has found himself in a similar situation with string theory. Millions and millions of theories are available, but which ones represent reality? Critics say string theory is untestable so far. So no one can pick a theory.
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Similarly he is disenchanted with loop quantum gravity. i think he made it clear here:
http://www.edge.org/conversation/think-about-nature
this link was also given in the thread above.
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You were saying that we will never know first cause, but isn't it amazing that so many things are agreed upon right now in cosmology? That there is expansion. Something like a start. That the atomic theory is important to understanding the universe, and the universe itself has a quantum nature. But agreeing on stuff is not knowing it. Smolin believes in the moment.
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Me too.
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Now try and figure out what a moment is.
In tennis, the moment is what i should have done 1/10th second ago.
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  • #89
Tanelorn said:
Chalnoth, I agree with you, and would modify what I said to say that only the present exists and it a unique present for each frame of reference.
That doesn't make any sense. How can existence be an observer-dependent property?

Anyway, in General Relativity, the result is completely unambiguous: the past, present, and future are all described by a single four-dimensional manifold. The future has as much real existence as the past or present. So yes, if it were possible to construct a traversable space-time path that led back to the past, you could certainly traverse that path to get there.
 
  • #90
Chalnoth, are you not using mathematics to prove one possible view of reality, but that view might yet still not be the truth of our reality? Sure we can write down a coordinate as consisting of three spatial numbers and a temporal one and then we can think that this unique 4D point really does exist forever and that with the right technology we can travel there. In our minds it does, and I used to believe it that way myself (HG Wells etc), but I am now no longer so sure that it accurately represents reality. I now believe that we would literally need to somehow create another Universe exactly like ours and let it exist until that moment in time has been reached again in order to experience that unique moment of time and existence again. Past, present or future moments, once the moment has happened it is over and gone.

I agree that every moment in the past did exist for a fleetingly short time, but now these moments are gone, and the past ceases to exist as soon as time has marched on to the next moment. So I am suggesting that we exist in a completely transitory universe, in effect here today and gone tomorrow. It is my view of the nature of time and reality that has changed, I no longer see a moment in time as being like the three dimensions and coordinates of space and somewhere that we can travel to. All that ever remains of any moment in the past is the information, which determines through cause and effect of particle interactions the next instantaneous moment of the present. The present being no larger than: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck_time.

To sum up, moments in time are not being stored in perpetuity and reality exists only in the movement of time as it creates each new present.
I found this amusing, relevant and predictable when I read about it because either we go extinct or no one in the next 10^100 years is able to travel to a past moment in time:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...king-held-party-time-travellers--turned-.htmlnegativz we cannot ever know first cause because every time we think we have found it we then need to ask ok but what caused that first cause? The greatest tragedy of our existence is not that we are mortal but that we almost certainly pass without ever knowing what something approaching first cause is, and what it really was all about.
 
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