Random though regarding on current

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of electric current, particularly in relation to motion and reference frames. Participants explore hypothetical scenarios involving charged objects and circuits, questioning how motion affects current and the interplay between electric and magnetic fields. The scope includes theoretical reasoning and conceptual clarification.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions whether spinning a charged object in hand generates current, suggesting it might depend on the observer's frame of reference.
  • Another participant agrees that spinning a circuit could affect perceived current, noting that observers in different frames may disagree on the causes of observed effects.
  • Some participants argue that spinning a circuit in the same direction as the current would not double the current, as both positive and negative charges would increase in velocity equally, resulting in no net change.
  • Others propose that if the circuit spins in the opposite direction, it might lead to zero current, but this is contested.
  • A participant expresses confusion about the relationship between electric and magnetic fields, indicating a need for further understanding of relativity in this context.
  • Another participant introduces a practical application involving a bicycle with a charged wheel, questioning if pedaling could generate current efficiently without a pre-existing DC current.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the effects of spinning a circuit on current. There are multiple competing views regarding how motion influences current and the role of reference frames, indicating that the discussion remains unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Some claims depend on assumptions about charge distribution and the net charge of the circuit. The discussion also touches on the complexities of electric and magnetic fields without resolving the underlying physics.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those exploring concepts in electromagnetism, reference frames in physics, and practical applications of electric circuits in mechanical systems.

Acuben
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Since current is charge flowing in a circuit, I was thinking this silly :P thought.

If you are holding a charged object in your hand and you spin your hand in circular motion. Is there a current?

also...
If you setup a simple circuit with a DC in shape of a circuit.
edit: you are right cepheid
If you setup a simple circuit with a DC in shape of a circle.Let's say the current is towards clockwise direction. If you spin the whole circuit in clockwise direct at the same speed of the current, would you get double the current?
Or if you force it to spin at the opposite direction same speed of the current, then would you get 0 current?

Or do I have the concept of current completely wrong?
(current is charges per second)

oh and...I have no idea how fast electrons can move in a circuit

edit: I also noticed a typo on this topic >_>
 
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These are good questions. The short answer to all of them is, "it depends on your frame of reference."

Acuben said:
If you are holding a charged object in your hand and you spin your hand in circular motion. Is there a current?

According to you, no, because you are stationary in your own reference frame. But according to a person in a reference frame in which you appear to be rotating, yes, there is a current.

Acuben said:
also...
If you setup a simple circuit with a DC in shape of a circuit.

I don't know what you meant here, but ok. So you have a DC circuit. EDIT: Oh, I think you meant to say that the circuit was in the shape of a circle. Gotcha.

Acuben said:
Let's say the current is towards clockwise direction. If you spin the whole circuit in clockwise direct at the same speed of the current, would you get double the current?

Again, according to a person for whom the circuit is spinning, yes, the charges have an extra component to their motion.

Acuben said:
Or if you force it to spin at the opposite direction same speed of the current, then would you get 0 current?

Also possible. An interesting consequence of the fact that some observers see charges as being stationary while others see those same charges as being in motion is that the latter will claim that there are magnetic fields present, whereas the former will see only electric fields. At the end of the day, everyone has to agree on the observed effects of whatever fields are present, they just might not agree upon the causes. This idea suggests that electricity and magnetism are just two aspects of the same phenomenon, which has come to be called electromagnetism. This sort of "coincidence", that although observers in relative motion may disagree about what physics is causing certain effects, the effects themselves don't differ, was the also one of the major inspirations for Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity.

Acuben said:
Or do I have the concept of current completely wrong?
(current is charges per second)

No, I think that you are conceptualizing things just fine.

Acuben said:
oh and...I have no idea how fast electrons can move in a circuit

That's yet another interesting question. Although individual electrons in a conductor can move quite fast (with the average speed depending on temperature), their velocities tend to be in all different directions (i.e. the velocities are distributed randomly), because the electrons tend to keep colliding with other particles over and over again. As a result, under normal circumstances, these velocity directions all tend to average out and there is no NET motion in any given direction. However, if an electric field is applied across the conductor (as is the case in an electric circuit), then the electrons, although their individual velocities will still rapidly change direction due to collisions, will tend to migrate overall in the direction opposite to that of the applied electric field. So, on top of the individual electron velocities, there is an overall net motion of the charges (their velocities don't all average out to zero in this case). The velocity of the net motion is known as the drift velocity. As you can imagine, constantly bouncing around and hitting things is a very inefficient way to get anywhere, and as a result, drift velocities tend to be very very slow -- like I mean on the order of a few centimetres per second. Therefore, it is quite feasible to "cancel out" this net component of the charge motion by "boosting" (to use the physics jargon) to a moving reference frame.
 
Acuben said:
If you setup a simple circuit with a DC in shape of a circle.


Let's say the current is towards clockwise direction. If you spin the whole circuit in clockwise direct at the same speed of the current, would you get double the current?
Or if you force it to spin at the opposite direction same speed of the current, then would you get 0 current?

I would say no to both of these. If your device spins in the same direction as the current then the velocity of negative charges will increase but the velocity of the positive nuclei will also increase. basically you'd have an increase in current of - charge current and an exactly equal increase in + charge current with the net effect being zero.
 
Acuben said:
Let's say the current is towards clockwise direction. If you spin the whole circuit in clockwise direct at the same speed of the current, would you get double the current?

Actually, I'm going to say no. Regardless of your reference frame, the current is the same.
You can add to the velocity of the negative charges by spinning the loop, but you also increase the velocity of the positive charges in the loop, resulting in no net change in current.

Of course, that is assuming that the wire has a net charge of zero. If you have a charged object, the current would change.
 
mrspeedybob said:
I If your device spins in the same direction as the current then the velocity of negative charges will increase but the velocity of the positive nuclei will also increase.

Archosaur said:
You can add to the velocity of the negative charges by spinning the loop, but you also increase the velocity of the positive charges in the loop, resulting in no net change in current.

Ah, yeah. I completely missed that.
 
thanks to all of you for reply

Well I was thinking about this concept when I heard of a bicycle with a motor without any moving parts.

I don't think I understand completely regarding on use of relativity on magnetism and electric field, I guess I need more physics...

anyways. I would like to ask some more applied question.
1. Is it possible to have a part of wheel charged and have it stay charged?
So let's say I have a sphere that is +charged, and I attach that to the wheel of bicycle.
(Say there are Na+ ions inside the sphere =s)
2. applying this concept...
If I do setup the wheels like that (with a charge) on my bicycle and therefore it creates a "current" as result of me pedaling with magnet on side of my bicycle.
Now If I have a current and and magnetic field, That would cause Force towards one direction.
F=qv x B (where F, v, B are vectors...using right hand rule).

I should mention about that magnet powered motor.
It has a DC current, and magnet attached to side. As result, the Magnetic Force would speed up the bicycle.
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/6956/magnetdiskmotor.png

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

What I would like to know is, if I don't have a DC current on my wheels, but I'm making DC current by pedaling, would the bicycle move faster and efficiently?
 
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