COVID Reaction to COVID-19 Vaccine (or what to be prepared for)

[phinds]

This can be like, "Do you want to be vaccinated and risk getting sick, or do you want to go unvaccinated and risk getting badly sick and dying?

I think it's more like "Do you want to run a trivial risk of feeling mildly bad for a day or a mild risk of feeling quite bad for a couple of weeks or a serious risk of ... "

 

[StevieTNZ]

My social worker got nausea after his first dose of Pfzier. That frightened me enough, though all I had was a sore arm the next day. My second dose is due to be administered 12 Sept.

 

[Laroxe]

As someone who has had Covid myself I am in no way an anti vax activist , I feel I have to say this just in case due to the high tension climate we now live in.
I want to report on what seems like a rare side effect from the Covid Pfizer Vaccine, possibly other vaccine makers as well we don't know for now.
Today I got a video from a friend and the video shows a local woman in a local hospital telling about the fact that she got vaccinated and now is administered to the hospital and is diagnosed with as she said "brain meningitis" .
At first I thought this is one of those never ending anti vaxx stunts as I have never heard of such a form of meningitis.
Me being me I decided to check it out , and indeed there can be such a medical condition.
And I found a paper from Japan where another woman was hospitalized with "aseptic meningitis" .
Here is the paper.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10072-021-05543-1

It's certainly interesting, but the case report from Japan left me rather confused, I wonder why they attributed this to the vaccination. A recognized, though rare, cause of this condition is the use of anti-inflammatory drugs, and there are case reports, which seems to present a similar clinical picture, associated with Loxoprofen.

It is seen following MMR vaccination & rarely with some others, with the MMR symptoms tend to occur 20 to 30 days after vaccination.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/03009740310003767

 

[Evo]

I went to the local CVS pharmacy in the Target store 2 miles away, had my pick of appointments, chose Pfizer, went in, sat down got my injection, felt nothing, got a $5 coupon to shop with and entered in a $5,000 contest. Scheduled my next shot for 3 weeks later.

Had a bit of soreness at the injection site, was gone when I woke up the next day.

Went in for my 2nd vaccine, no waiting again, sat down got the shot, didn't feel it, got another $5 coupon.

Later that day my upper arm was a bit more sore, oddly I couldn't raise my arm above shoulder level. no other symptoms, Woke up the next day and was fine. Evo child said she had the same thing, we are clones.

Don't be afraid to get the Pfizer vaccine.

So funny, Evo Child has REFUSED to get a flu shot every year, she has some anti-vax people in her social network and they scared her, she wouldn't believe me that the shots weren't a live virus, only the nasal spray is, and they are weakened, so as not to cause infection. She said she's never had the flu, so she doubted she would catch it, I sure hope she gets her flu shot this year. When Covid hit, as soon as she was eligible to get vaccinated she was the first in line! Now her doctor has authorized her for the booster.

 

[fresh_42]

I went to the local CVS pharmacy in the Target store 2 miles away, had my pick of appointments, chose Pfizer, went in, sat down got my injection, felt nothing, got a $5 coupon to shop with and entered in a $5,000 contest. Scheduled my next shot for 3 weeks later.

Had a bit of soreness at the injection site, was gone when I woke up the next day.

Went in for my 2nd vaccine, no waiting again, sat down got the shot, didn't feel it, got another $5 coupon.

Later that day my upper arm was a bit more sore, oddly I couldn't raise my arm above shoulder level. no other symptoms, Woke up the next day and was fine. Evo child said she had the same thing, we are clones.

Don't be afraid to get the Pfizer vaccine.

Pretty much the same here. I could copy and paste your report. That Pfizer thingy (BionTech here) is really no problem.

We are currently facing wave #4. I wonder where all those infections come from. They cannot all be breakthrough infections. I look up the daily numbers like a weather report. We are above 200 infections per week per 100,000 citizens. I do not understand it.

 

[Grasshopper]

Pretty much the same here. I could copy and paste your report. That Pfizer thingy (BionTech here) is really no problem.

We are currently facing wave #4. I wonder where all those infections come from. They cannot all be breakthrough infections. I look up the daily numbers like a weather report. We are above 200 infections per week per 100,000 citizens. I do not understand it.

Breakthrough infections are pretty rare compared to unvaccinated infections based on all the publications I have read.

 

[phinds]

Breakthrough infections are pretty rare compared to unvaccinated infections based on all the publications I have read.

Exactly. For hospitalizations, it's even more dramatic. Different locale's reports range from 20 to 1 to 50 to 1. I even saw one that claimed 99 to 1 but that was an outlier.

 

[nsaspook]

3rd shot of Pfizer last month because of medical reasons. Reaction? Nothing, just like the first two.

 

[atyy]

Pretty much the same here. I could copy and paste your report. That Pfizer thingy (BionTech here) is really no problem.

We are currently facing wave #4. I wonder where all those infections come from. They cannot all be breakthrough infections. I look up the daily numbers like a weather report. We are above 200 infections per week per 100,000 citizens. I do not understand it.

Breakthrough infections are pretty rare compared to unvaccinated infections based on all the publications I have read

Breakthrough infections may not be that rare. Estimates of protection against breakthrough infections range from about 50% to 80%, if asymptomatic infections are included; and about 60% to 90% if only symptomatic infections are included. The important thing is that protection against hospitalization, severe disease and death remains high around 90% (UK: 91-98% (Table 3, p8), Israel: 82-99% (Table S4, p20), Bahrain: 97% (Pfizer), Sinopharm (85%) (rough conversion by me from odds ratios in Table 4, p11).

 

[bhobba]

Pretty much the same here. I could copy and paste your report. That Pfizer thingy (BionTech here) is really no problem.

Same here with AZ.

Thanks
Bill

 

[artis]

Well vaccination before infection reduces hospital admission and death that we now know, but it doesn't necessarily decrease the infected count that much because if my country is of any measure we have a population of about 2 million, currently there are almost 40% of fully vaccinated people, the average everyday infection rate roughly goes like 25-30% amongst the fully vaccinated vs 70% for unvaccinated.

 

[Grasshopper]

Breakthrough infections may not be that rare. Estimates of protection against breakthrough infections range from about 50% to 80%, if asymptomatic infections are included; and about 60% to 90% if only symptomatic infections are included. The important thing is that protection against hospitalization, severe disease and death remains high around 90% (UK: 91-98% (Table 3, p8), Israel: 82-99% (Table S4, p20), Bahrain: 97% (Pfizer), Sinopharm (85%) (rough conversion by me from odds ratios in Table 4, p11).

All of those studies I clicked on said vaccination reduces chances of infection, some by a very large amount. I don’t understand the hold up here.

Also one criticism I have of some studies on the topic is that some rely on patients reporting if they’re vaccinated or not, and I guarantee at least some bumpkins with COVID who realize they were dead wrong about it will lie and say they were vaccinated to not look stupid.

Of course I suppose asking is easier than getting permission for medical records, but that certainly is going to slightly skew the results. Maybe very little, but it will still affect it.

 

[atyy]

All of those studies I clicked on said vaccination reduces chances of infection, some by a very large amount. I don’t understand the hold up here.

Well, it depends on whether one considers 50% large or small.

Also one criticism I have of some studies on the topic is that some rely on patients reporting if they’re vaccinated or not, and I guarantee at least some bumpkins with COVID who realize they were dead wrong about it will lie and say they were vaccinated to not look stupid.

That's the first time I've heard that. It's more commonly said that there could be sampling problems in some (not all), for example, vaccinated people and unvaccinated people might not be going for tests at the same rate.

Also, many of the unvaccinated might have been infected, and that would also give them protection similar to vaccination. So not accounting for that might decrease the apparent effectiveness of vaccination compared to being unvaccinated and not having recovered from an infection.

 

[symbolipoint]

Also, many of the unvaccinated might have been infected, and that would also give them protection similar to vaccination.

Inclusive or exclusive of "delta variant"?

 

[atyy]

Inclusive or exclusive of "delta variant"?

Inclusive of Delta. Not sure which is more protective (different results from different studies), but both are protective.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.18.21262237v1
Impact of Delta on viral burden and vaccine effectiveness against new SARS-CoV-2 infections
in the UK
"There was no evidence that the effectiveness of two ChAdOx1 vaccinations ≥14 days previously in preventing new PCR-positives differed from the protection afforded by previous natural infection without vaccination (heterogeneity p=0.33), whereas two BNT162b2 vaccinations afforded greater protection (p=0.04)."

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1
Comparing SARS-CoV-2 natural immunity to vaccine-induced immunity: reinfections versus breakthrough infections
"This study demonstrated that natural immunity confers longer lasting and stronger protection against infection, symptomatic disease and hospitalization caused by the Delta variant of SARS-CoV-2, compared to the BNT162b2 two-dose vaccine-induced immunity."

 

[Grasshopper]

Well, it depends on whether one considers 50% large or small.

That's the first time I've heard that. It's more commonly said that there could be sampling problems in some (not all), for example, vaccinated people and unvaccinated people might not be going for tests at the same rate.

Also, many of the unvaccinated might have been infected, and that would also give them protection similar to vaccination. So not accounting for that might decrease the apparent effectiveness of vaccination compared to being unvaccinated and not having recovered from an infection.

That’s true. Quick general question to the biologists here:

If R is reproduction number and E is vaccine effectiveness, does this formula tell the percentage we need to vaccinate to get herd immunity?

$\frac{1 - \frac{1}{R}}{E}$

I can’t remember where I’ve seen that but it looks familiar.

 

[atyy]

That’s true.Quick general question to the biologists here:

If R is reproduction number and E is vaccine effectiveness, does this formula tell the percentage we need to vaccinate to get herd immunity?

$\frac{1 - \frac{1}{R}}{E}$

I can’t remember where I’ve seen that but it looks familiar.

That's in the simplest models, so it's a good rule of thumb:

https://academic.oup.com/cid/article/52/7/911/299077
“Herd Immunity”: A Rough Guide
Paul Fine, Ken Eames, David L. Heymann

https://www.eurosurveillance.org/content/10.2807/1560-7917.ES.2021.26.20.2100428
The potential for vaccination-induced herd immunity against the SARS-CoV-2 B.1.1.7 variant
David Hodgson, Stefan Flasche, Mark Jit, Adam J Kucharski, CMMID COVID-19 Working Group

But one can have more complex models (in which it is hard to intuit the results), eg:

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.26.21262579v1
Population impact of SARS-CoV-2 variants with enhanced transmissibility and/or partial immune escape
Mary Bushman, Rebecca Kahn, Bradford P. Taylor, Marc Lipsitch, William P. Hanage

 

[bhobba]

3rd shot of Pfizer last month because of medical reasons. Reaction? Nothing, just like the first two.

Third dose way to go for everyone. They are studying now the optimum time for the third dose. We know after 6 months from the second, it is 95% effective against Delta. I am very positive about this development.

Thanks
Bill

 

[bhobba]

That's in the simplest models, so it's a good rule of thumb:

If V is the fraction vaccinated and E the fraction of vaccinated people the vaccine prevents getting infected, then the effective fraction that can be infected is (1 - E*V). If the reproduction number is R0, the effective reproduction number R is R = R0*(1- E*V). To die out R < 1. It will grow if R > 1. Set R = 1 to get the critical vaccination number. For Delta, the reproduction number R0 is about 7. Two doses Pfizer starts at 88% efficiency against Delta, so 1 = 7*(1 - .88*V) or V = (1 - 1/7)/.88 = .975, i.e. virtually everyone needs to be vaccinated. But against Delta, its effectiveness reduces by 22% every 30 days. So you can't vaccinate your way out of Delta with 2 doses of Phizer. Now a third dose after six months raises it to 95% efficiency. I will let you do the math. The result is over about 90%; you can vaccinate your way out of trouble. But how long does that 95% last; who knows? However, if we get high enough 3rd dose vaccination rates, we will have a good shot at controlling Delta. Isreal is doing just that, so we will soon know.

Thanks
Bill

 

[dlgoff]

Just waiting for the Moderna third shot. I think I heard it wouldn't be available until sometime in October. Hope there's no reaction.

 

[symbolipoint]

Just waiting for the Moderna third shot. I think I heard it wouldn't be available until sometime in October. Hope there's no reaction.

Guessing, the same reaction if any as dose #1 and dose #2 (which were, none for me)

 

[bhobba]

Gee you guys are getting third doses rather soon. Remember it is thought you need about 6 months after the second dose to be really effective. It is being rolled out in Isreal because they were vaccinated early. Good thing too because Phizer, by reducing 22% per 30 days, overall it was only about 40% effective in Isreal.

Thanks
Bill

 

[dlgoff]

Gee you guys are getting third doses rather soon. Remember it is thought you need about 6 months after the second dose to be really effective. It is being rolled out in Isreal because they were vaccinated early. Good thing too because Phizer, by reducing 22% per 30 days, overall it was only about 40% effective in Isreal.

Thanks
Bill

My second dose was in March; 6 months ago.

 

[bhobba]

My second dose was in March; 6 months ago.

I figured that was the case. People on this site would have embraced vaccines ASAP. Australia was the late kid off the block. Still, it would be getting close to 6 months for some early adopters even here. Mine will be due in February sometime. We are getting high vaccine uptake rates in NSW - heading towards 80% first dose - 40% second dose. Hopefully, well over 80% double doses in mid-November. Just saw a news segment about a town of a few thousand in Victoria with over 99% one dose - 75% two doses. If Aus, after a slow start, can get 90% two doses (80% hoped for by mid-November - we are really accelerating), then the same for 3 doses, we will be looking good. Fingers crossed.

Thanks
Bill

 

[hutchphd]

Breakthrough infections are pretty rare compared to unvaccinated infections based on all the publications I have read.

Breakthrough infections may not be that rare. Estimates of protection against breakthrough infections range from about 50% to 80%,

My personal experience would indicate the second (@atyy) is the truth about Delta. My own close pod of 15 folks (all mRNA vaccinated) had a single influx that spread to 8 people (tested) with a median incubation of 4 days. Nothing worse than moderate flu symptoms.

 

[fresh_42]

Here are some interesting statistical numbers (currently in my local news ticker).

There are 292 cases (per week per 100,000 people) among unvaccinated (or unknown status or only one dose), and 13.7 among fully (= twice) vaccinated (1:21).

 

[Grasshopper]

My personal experience would indicate the second (@atyy) is the truth about Delta. My own close pod of 15 folks (all mRNA vaccinated) had a single influx that spread to 8 people (tested) with a median incubation of 4 days. Nothing worse than moderate flu symptoms.

My guess is that would have been 14-15 had everyone been unvaccinated.

 

[hutchphd]

The salient point for me is that probably all of those who were symptomatic were shedding virus for a few days even though vaccinated. We weren't at some big party...each visited a few others once casually mostly out of doors. Also it is clear there was only one "patient zero" in the group.
I'm not sure the infection rate would be that much different...but the outcomes would have been!
GET VACCINATED.

 

[Stephenk53]

My vaccine was months ago, I got the Johnson and Johnson (only one I could get at the time unless I wanted to drive for two hours). I had to work that day and the following day, the first day I also had to bring in a large delivery to my small convenience store on my own since it is a small store (I was a cashier). I was extremely sore and tired, and I felt very hot. I did have trouble working due to soreness and being tired leading to me having to cut some corners while working but nothing crazy. My arm also hurt a lot.

 

[Grasshopper]

The salient point for me is that probably all of those who were symptomatic were shedding virus for a few days even though vaccinated. We weren't at some big party...each visited a few others once casually mostly out of doors. Also it is clear there was only one "patient zero" in the group.
I'm not sure the infection rate would be that much different...but the outcomes would have been!
GET VACCINATED.

There’s no way I can remember the study, but I read one that said that while peak viral load was the same for breakthrough cases as it was for unvaccinated, the viral load in vaccinated patients decreased much faster — which indicates they would spread it less over similar time windows.