Relation between Poincare matrix and electromagnetic field t

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the theoretical relationship between the Poincaré matrix and the electromagnetic field tensor. Participants explore the similarities in their structures and the implications for Lorentz transformations, focusing on the algebraic properties they may share.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants describe the Poincaré matrix as an antisymmetric matrix that represents boosts and rotations, while the electromagnetic field tensor has a similar structure, with electric fields analogous to boosts and magnetic fields to rotations.
  • One participant questions the definitions of the Poincaré matrix and its components, seeking clarification on the terms used.
  • Another participant provides a detailed explanation of the Poincaré matrix and its relation to Lorentz transformations, mentioning that the field tensor transforms under the Lorentz group.
  • It is noted that infinitesimal Lorentz transformations can be represented by antisymmetric matrices, and the relationship between the Poincaré matrix and the electromagnetic field tensor is explored through their roles in generating Lorentz transformations.
  • Some participants express curiosity about the theoretical connection between the Poincaré matrix and the electromagnetic field tensor, particularly in how they satisfy similar algebraic properties.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying levels of understanding and curiosity about the relationship between the Poincaré matrix and the electromagnetic field tensor. While some points are clarified, the discussion remains unresolved regarding the exact theoretical connection and implications.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the need for clearer definitions of terms like K and J in the context of the Poincaré matrix, as well as the potential for different interpretations of the relationship between the matrices and their algebraic properties.

Muratani
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We know that Poincare matrix which is 0 Kx Ky Kz
( -Kx 0 Jz -Jy ) describes the boost and rotation is very similar to
-Ky -Jz 0 Jx
-Kz -y -Jx 0

to the electromagnetic field tensor 0 -Ex -Ey -Ez , in here E field like boost and B field like rotation.
Ex 0 -Bz By
Ey Bz 0 -Bx
Ez -By Bx 0

My question is how they are related theoretically? and how we can show that they stasfy the same algebra?
 
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What is the Poincare matrix? (Reference?)
What are K and J in this antisymmetric matrix?
(Can you write in ##\LaTeX##?)
 
Poincare matrix is $ M^{\mu\nu}$ in Poincare algebra which describes Lorentz transformations. You can look up wikipedia page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poincaré_group. If we write $ M^{\mu\nu}$ as matrix form, it looks like
$$ M^{\mu\nu}=\begin{pmatrix} 0 & -K_x & -K_y & -K_z \\ K_x & 0 & J_z & -J_y \\ K_y & J_z &0 & J_x \\ K_z & J_y & -J_x &0 \end{pmatrix}$$.

In parallel to this notation for uniform constant field the electromagnetic field tensor will have a similar effect on charge E field like boost and B field like rotation and field tensor $F^{\mu\nu} $ have similar structure to $ M^{\mu\nu}$

$$ F^{\mu\nu}=\begin{pmatrix} 0 & -E_x & -E_y & -E_z \\ E_x & 0 & B_z & -B_y \\ E_y & B_z &0 & B_x \\ E_z & B_y & -B_x &0 \end{pmatrix}$$.

I was wondering what is theoretical connection between them?
 
Muratani said:
We know that Poincare matrix which is 0 Kx Ky Kz
( -Kx 0 Jz -Jy ) describes the boost and rotation is very similar to
-Ky -Jz 0 Jx
-Kz -y -Jx 0

to the electromagnetic field tensor 0 -Ex -Ey -Ez , in here E field like boost and B field like rotation.
Ex 0 -Bz By
Ey Bz 0 -Bx
Ez -By Bx 0

My question is how they are related theoretically? and how we can show that they stasfy the same algebra?

M_{\mu\nu} are the 6 abstract generators of the Lorentz group SO(1,3). In the vector representation, M_{\mu\nu} are six 4 \times 4 matrices whose matrix elements are given by (M_{\mu\nu})^{\alpha}{}_{\beta} \sim \delta^{\alpha}_{\mu} \ \eta_{\nu\beta} - \delta^{\alpha}_{\nu} \ \eta_{\mu\beta} \ .
So, for example, the boost generators K_{i} = M_{i0}, \ i = x,y,z are three 4 \times 4 matrices with matrix elements given by (K_{i})^{\alpha}{}_{\beta} \sim \delta^{\alpha}_{i} \ \eta_{0\beta} - \delta^{\alpha}_{0} \ \eta_{i\beta} .
So, in the vector representation, M_{\mu\nu} is a collection of six 4 \times 4 matrices. But, the field tensor F_{\mu\nu} is a collection of 6 functions, i.e., six numbers which you can arrange them into one anti-symmetric 4 \times 4 matrix. Under the Lorentz group, F_{\mu\nu} transforms in the tensor representation of the generators M_{\mu\nu}: \delta F_{\mu\nu} = \frac{i}{2} \left( \omega^{\rho\sigma}M_{\rho\sigma} \right)_{\mu\nu}{}^{\alpha\beta} \ F_{\alpha\beta} .
 
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The relation is that infinitesimal Lorentz transformations are given by antisymmetric ##4 \times 4## matrices. This is easy to see. For simplicity we work with the representation of Lorentz transformations with two lower indices, i.e.,
$$x_{\mu}'=\Lambda_{\mu \nu} x^{\nu},$$
where
$$\Lambda_{\mu \nu} = \eta_{\mu \rho} {\Lambda^{\rho}}_{\nu}.$$
For a Lorentz transformation you have
$$\eta^{\mu \nu} \Lambda_{\mu \rho} \Lambda_{\nu \sigma}=\eta_{\rho \sigma},$$
and for an infinitesimal transformation, i.e., ##\Lambda_{\mu \rho}=\eta_{\mu \rho}+\delta \Omega_{\mu \rho}## yieds up to quantities of 2nd order in the ##\delta \Omega##
$$\eta^{\mu \nu} (\eta_{\mu \rho}+\delta \Omega_{\mu \rho})(\eta_{\nu \sigma}+\delta \Omega_{\nu \sigma})=\eta_{\rho \sigma}+\delta \Omega_{\sigma \rho} + \delta \Omega_{\rho \sigma} \; \Rightarrow \; \delta \Omega_{\rho \sigma}=-\delta \Omega_{\sigma \rho}.$$
For homogeneous static em. fields the ##F_{\mu \nu}## generate Lorentz transformations, i.e., the trajectories (world lines) of particles are given by Lorentz transformations of the initial momenta, because the equation of motion reads
$$\frac{\mathrm{d} p^{\mu}}{\mathrm{d} \tau}=\frac{q}{c} F^{\mu \nu} p_{\nu}.$$
For ##F^{\mu \nu}=\text{const}## you get indeed Lorentz transformations. For ##\vec{B}=0## it's a rotation-free boost, for ##\vec{E}=0## it's spatial rotation.
 
Thank you very much! It explains a lot.
 

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