Relationship between the radius and area of liquid in a cylinder

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the relationship between the radius of a cylinder and the area over which a liquid of fixed volume is spread inside it. Participants explore mathematical formulations and graphical representations related to this relationship, considering the implications of varying the angle of the liquid's surface.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a formula relating the radius, angle, and area of liquid in a cylinder, suggesting a complex relationship that includes conditions based on fixed volume and length.
  • Another participant points out that the angle ##\theta## is only meaningful up to ##2\pi##, indicating that changes in radius can lead to significant changes in angle when the cylinder is nearly full.
  • There is a discussion about whether ##\theta## should be limited to ##\pi##, with one participant questioning the implications of negative values in their calculations.
  • Another participant clarifies that while sine values may be negative, the expression ##\theta - \sin(\theta)## remains positive, allowing the formulas to hold true up to ##2\pi##.
  • One participant derives an alternative formula for the area and expresses confusion about its validity when ##\theta## exceeds ##\pi##, leading to a request for proof of an equation related to trigonometric identities.
  • Further exploration of the derived formulas shows that they yield consistent results even for angles greater than ##\pi##, prompting additional inquiries about proving these relationships.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the interpretation of the angle ##\theta## and its implications for the area calculations. There is no consensus on the limitations of ##\theta## or the validity of certain formulas, indicating ongoing debate and exploration of the topic.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge the complexity of the relationships involved and the potential for different interpretations of the mathematical expressions. Some assumptions regarding the behavior of the formulas at various angles remain unresolved.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those studying fluid dynamics, geometry, or mathematical modeling, particularly in relation to cylindrical shapes and liquid behavior.

JohnnyGui
Messages
802
Reaction score
51
Hello,

I did a calculation to determine whether a liquid with a fixed volume ##V##, would be spread over a larger surface area ##A## on the inside mantle of a cylinder, if the cylinder has a larger radius ##r##. So I’d like to find a relationship between the radius ##r## and the area ##A## over which the liquid is spread in the cylinder. The length of the cylinder ##L## and the volume of liequid ##V## are fixed.

Cylinder.jpg

If the liquid with volume ##V## is put in the cylinder with a radius ##r##, it would have the following picture when cut through;

Circular Segment.jpg


- The area ##O## is formulated as: ##\frac{r^2}{2} \cdot (θ – sin(θ)) = O##.
- The volume ##V## of the liquid would therefore be defined as: ##\frac{r^2}{2} \cdot (θ – sin(θ)) \cdot L =V##.
- The area ##A## of the inside “mantle” of the cylinder over which the liquid is spread is defined as ##L \cdot r \cdot θ = A##.

Combining these formulas will give the relationship of V, θ, r and A in the following form:
$$\frac{2V}{r(1-\frac{sin(θ)}{θ})} = A$$
The radius ##r## can be formulated in terms of θ as well since ##\sqrt{\frac{2V}{L(θ-sin(θ))}}=r##. The end formula being:
$$\frac{2V}{\sqrt{\frac{2V}{L(θ-sin(θ)}} \cdot (1-\frac{sin(θ)}{θ})} = A$$
Plotting the relationship ##\sqrt{\frac{2V}{L(θ-sin(θ))}}=r## with θ being the variable, ##V## and ##L## being fixed values, shows a peculiar graph:

Graph.jpg


There are points in the graph of which the slope is actually zero, which means that a change in θ doesn’t give a change in radius. Looking at the graph as if the radius is the variable (which is my initial question) thus says that there are values of ##r## in which the change θ is vertical, as if it means that the radius ##r## doesn’t need to change to make θ change. I’m not sure how to interpret this.
How is this possible if the length ##L## and the volume of the liquid ##V## are fixed?
 
Last edited:
Mathematics news on Phys.org
##\theta## is only meaningful up to 2 pi, the first point where the derivative goes to zero. Your cylinder is nearly filled close to this value, increasing the radius a tiny bit leads to a large change in the angle, with a diverging ratio where the cylinder is exactly full.

There is an angle that minimized the area for a given volume. Here is a plot.
 
mfb said:
##\theta## is only meaningful up to 2 pi, the first point where the derivative goes to zero. Your cylinder is nearly filled close to this value, increasing the radius a tiny bit leads to a large change in the angle, with a diverging ratio where the cylinder is exactly full.

There is an angle that minimized the area for a given volume. Here is a plot.

Ah, can't believe I missed this. Furthermore, shouldn't ##\theta## only be meaningful up to ##\pi## instead of ##2\pi## since an angle higer than ##\pi## would give negative values? So with the mentioned formula I can only calculate the area up until the liquid is filling half of the circle?
 
Negative values of what? The sine gets negative, but ##\theta - \sin \theta## stays positive. All your formulas work up to 2 pi. 2 pi corresponds to a fully filled cylinder.
 
mfb said:
Negative values of what? The sine gets negative, but ##\theta - \sin \theta## stays positive. All your formulas work up to 2 pi. 2 pi corresponds to a fully filled cylinder.

Just checked, and it does indeed work. The truth is that for the picture:

Circular Segment.jpg


I derived a formula myself first, for the area ##O##, which is:
$$r^2 (\frac{\theta}{2} - sin(\frac{\theta}{2}) \cdot cos(\frac{\theta}{2}))$$
I thought that if ##\theta ≥ \pi##, this formula would give an erroneous area of ##O## since I'm deriving the side lengths of triangles with an angle ##\theta##, and thus an angle can not exceed ##\pi##.

However, it does give correct answers even if ##\theta ≥ \pi## and plots the exact same graph as ##\frac{r^2}{2}(\theta - sin(\theta))##.
But I can't really deduce how:
$$r^2 (\frac{\theta}{2} - sin(\frac{\theta}{2}) \cdot cos(\frac{\theta}{2})) = \frac{r^2}{2}(\theta - sin(\theta))$$
Which means that:
$$cos(\frac{\theta}{2}) \cdot sin(\frac{\theta}{2}) = \frac{1}{2} \cdot sin(\theta))$$
Is there a way to prove this equation?
 
JohnnyGui said:
$$cos(\frac{\theta}{2}) \cdot sin(\frac{\theta}{2}) = \frac{1}{2} \cdot sin(\theta))$$
Is there a way to prove this equation?
http://www.themathpage.com/atrig/double-proof.htm links to sum formulas, which links to a nice proof.
 
SlowThinker said:
http://www.themathpage.com/atrig/double-proof.htm links to sum formulas, which links to a nice proof.

Thanks for the link. So I was still a bit surprised about how the formula still works if ##\theta > \pi## and I've drawn this scenario where the liquid has fillled more than half the circle:

Circle 2.jpg

At first glance, to calculate the circle area ##O## of the liquid I'd say that:
$$r^2 \cdot (cos(\frac{2\pi - \theta}{2}) \cdot sin(\frac{2\pi - \theta}{2}) + \frac{\theta}{2}) = O$$
This formula seems to give the same plot as the initial formula for ##O## that I've posted in my opening post, so that

$$r^2 \cdot (cos(\frac{2\pi - \theta}{2}) \cdot sin(\frac{2\pi - \theta}{2}) + \frac{\theta}{2}) = r^2 (\frac{\theta}{2} - sin(\frac{\theta}{2}) \cdot cos(\frac{\theta}{2}))$$
Thus, the initial formula still gives valid answers for ##\theta > \pi## up until ##2\pi##

Bet there's also a way to prove this equation?
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 26 ·
Replies
26
Views
4K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
9K
  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
4K
Replies
39
Views
4K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
2K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
2K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
Replies
13
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
4K