I Relativity of simultaneity doubt

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The discussion revolves around the relativity of simultaneity, highlighting the differences in how two observers perceive simultaneous events. Observer OE on the ground sees two lightning strikes at points A and B as simultaneous, while observer OT on a moving train perceives the strikes at different times due to his motion relative to the strikes. The confusion arises from the assumption that light from both strikes reaches OT simultaneously when they are equidistant, which is proven false as the strikes do not occur at the same time in OT's frame. The conversation emphasizes that simultaneity is relative, depending on the observer's frame of reference, and that the speed of light remains constant across all frames. Ultimately, the thread illustrates the complexities of understanding simultaneity in the context of special relativity.
  • #91
italicus said:
I have spoken of my proper time between A and B , which is my worldline. Can I watch my wristwatch , during my trip to the Moon?
Yes, you can measure proper time from A to B, but that has nothing whatsoever to do with the light pulse when you said “I am interested in my propertime taken by the light signal”. That is what I am objecting to.

italicus said:
Do we want to determine at what time, measured by an Earth observer, the signal coming from the Moon meets the rocket ? Your additions to my diagram help. The meeting happens at the event D .
That single event, event D, is the only event for which a proper time related to the light pulse may be defined. Since it is a single event, no proper time duration may be calculated at all related to the light.

italicus said:
This distance is covered in part by the rocket, that has a speed of 0.8c wrt Earth ; and in part by the signal, that has speed c , obviously, and direction opposed to that of the rocket. So, the instant of meeting , as calculated by the Earth observer, that I'll call T_d, is given by the following simple equation :
L - cT_d = vT_d

which means : T_d = L/(c+v) = (1.25 / (1 + 0.8) ) s = 0.6944 s

this is the time of meeting, event D, measured by an Earth observer.
Sure ##\vec D = (t_D, x_D) = (0.69,0.56)## and ##\vec D’ = (t’_D, x’_D) = (0.42,0)##.
 
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  • #92
Dale said:
Yes, you can measure proper time from A to B, but that has nothing whatsoever to do with the light pulse. I thought that is what you were discussing.

That single event, event D, is the only event for which a proper time related to the light pulse may be defined. Since it is a single event, no proper time duration may be calculated at all related to the light.

Sure ##\vec D = (t_D, x_D) = (0.69,0.56)## and ##\vec D’ = (t’_D, x’_D) = (0.42,0)##.
Oh, at last, we have agreed on something! I see that you have also determined t’_d and x’_d=0, thanks. But now we are in OT a lot!
Buona notte.
 
  • #93
italicus said:
I have never spoken of my proper time between C and E, which is a light path. I have spoken of my proper time between A and B , which is my worldline.
See:

italicus said:
So I am interested in my propertime taken by the light signal emitted by the Moon to reach me
Which sure sounds like you are talking about your proper time from C to D. This is what I objected to, and why I stated that your proper time is undefined. If that was a mistake then we can move on.
 
  • #94
PAllen said:
In GR, there are some complications (e.g. there can be both timelike and spacelike geodesics connecting the two events; using the notion of causal future, past, or neither, resolves such ambiguities; the scenario where this can happen is CTCs).
Sorry, so that basically means that in GR the notion of spacelike separated events is not well defined ? Does it make sense in GR only locally (i.e. in a limited region of spacetime) ?
Thank you.
 
  • #95
cianfa72 said:
there can be both timelike and spacelike geodesics connecting the two events
Geodesics? Or just curves? In Godel spacetime, for example, there are CTCs through every event, but AFAIK none of them are geodesics.
 
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  • #96
PeterDonis said:
Geodesics? Or just curves? In Godel spacetime, for example, there are CTCs through every event, but AFAIK none of them are geodesics.
Some thead ago we said it is "better" to employ geodesics only (not just generic curves) in order to define the separation type for a couple of events.
 
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  • #97
PeterDonis said:
Geodesics? Or just curves? In Godel spacetime, for example, there are CTCs through every event, but AFAIK none of them are geodesics.
I’m not sure about the possibility of CTC being geodesic, but that doesn’t change my point. What is important is that events being connected by a spacelike geodesic no longer guarantees that one is not in the causal future of the other. Only light cones can be used to define causal structure in a general GR manifold. (I know you know all this, I just needed to clarify my point in context of the CTC not being geodesic).
 
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  • #98
PAllen said:
What is important is that events being connected by a spacelike geodesic no longer guarantees that one is not in the causal future of the other.
Yet we cannot claim those events are actually spacelike separated since there is a timelike geodesic connecting them too.

PAllen said:
Only light comes can be used to define causal structure in a general GR manifold.
it should read light cones, I think.
 
  • #99
cianfa72 said:
Yet we cannot claim those events are actually spacelike separated since there is a timelike geodesic connecting them too.
Actually, the whole point of the post is that the timelike curve may not be a geodesic, but it does not matter. Existence of any timelike path between events means they are causally connected. The distinction from SR is that existence of a spacelike geodesic is no longer sufficient to decide the issue.
cianfa72 said:
it should read light cones, I think.
Corrected, thanks.
 
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  • #100
italicus said:
How long does it take a light signal, emitted by the Moon, to cover this contracted distance ? Divide L_c by c=1ls/s , and obtain 0.75s of my time.
That's all.
There is one more thing. You would need to know what time it is here on Earth when that light signal left the moon. For that you need a simultaneity convention.

You may want to step back a bit and ask yourself how it's possible that time dilation is symmetrical. That is, how is it possible each of two moving observers will conclude that the other's clock is running slow?
 
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  • #101
italicus said:
@PAllen : I have to study your diagram, thanks.
Please do study post #85 and the associated diagram. It shows exactly why a rapidly approaching rocket would measure the moon farther away than andromeda using a radar bounce to each emission event.
 
  • #102
PAllen said:
What is important is that events being connected by a spacelike geodesic no longer guarantees that one is not in the causal future of the other.
Yes, agreed.
 
  • #103
cianfa72 said:
Some thead ago we said it is "better" to employ geodesics only (not just generic curves) in order to define the separation type for a couple of events.
That was for cases where issues like the presence of closed timelike curves do not apply. In spacetimes where CTCs are present, as @PAllen has pointed out, the fact that two events are connected by a spacelike geodesic does not imply that there is no causal curve (timelike or lightlike) connecting them. So one's intuitive picture of what "spacelike separation" means doesn't even work in such a spacetime.
 
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  • #104
PAllen said:
Are you possibly confused by 'see' versus 'model'? If two detectors are colocated at some moment (present at the same event), irrespective of their relative state of motion, it is physically impossible and absurd to claim that one receives two signals at that event and the other does not.
The Minkowski diagram (Italicus post 30) shows that the two signal reception events by OT and OE are not "colocated at the same event", we are dealing with two different events: OE receives a lightning strike signal, and OT receives two signals. These events are separated both temporally and spatially.
PAllen said:
How you model simultaneity of the distant emission events is a separate question and is fundamentally one of convention, not physics. Frame dependent is not enough of a statement to capture the issue. More precisely, the only invariant statements that can be made about distinct events is whether one is in the causal future, past, or neither (acausal, "possibly now") from the other. The only further statement that can be made is that if two observers use the same convention meeting certain properties (e.g. the Einstein convention) for assigning simultaneity to spacelike separated events, and one is in motion relative to the other, then they will disagree on simultaneity assignment. But simultaneity of distinct events is never an observable, per se.

The second issue I have is the existence of simultaneity of events (what you call, I believe, modeling simultaneity). Here I use a mathematical definition: events are simultaneous to an observer if they are orthogonal to its time vector in Minkowski space. And maybe it's just a matter of name (you used the term "convention") but to me it's not a convention, in a simple SR model the straight line, plane or R3 containing simultaneity events are precisely defined for the observer.I s here something more to that?
 
  • #105
I'd define the simultaneity of events wrt. an observer in a frame-independent way by: two events with spacetime fourvectors ##x## and ##y## are simultaneous wrt. an observer with four-velcity ##u## if ##u \cdot (x-y)=0##.
 
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  • #106
LBoy said:
And maybe it's just a matter of name (you used the term "convention") but to me it's not a convention, in a simple SR model the straight line, plane or R3 containing simultaneity events are precisely defined for the observer.I s here something more to that?
It is definitely a convention. In fact, I think there are at least 3 conventions used here:

First, it is a convention to say that the one-way speed of light is c. This convention has been extensively investigated by Reichenbach and others. Second, it is a convention to use inertial observers. With non-inertial observers the simultaneity defined by using the first convention is not even momentarily the same as for momentarily co-moving inertial observers. Third, it is a convention to pick which inertial observer to use. Even using the first and second conventions, simultaneity is different for different observers.

From your comments you seem to be aware at least of the third convention, but maybe not the first and second.
 
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  • #107
vanhees71 said:
I'd define the simultaneity of events wrt. an observer in a frame-independent way by: two events with spacetime fourvectors ##x## and ##y## are simultaneous wrt. an observer with four-velcity ##u## if ##u \cdot (x-y)=0##.
I think this definition is not fundamentally different from mine. Before PAllen answers I would like to know your view on the issue of simultaneity: convention or physical reality? Because I admit I don't understand this argument.
 
  • #108
LBoy said:
I think this definition is not fundamentally different from mine. Before PAllen answers I would like to know your view on the issue of simultaneity: convention or physical reality? Because I admit I don't understand this argument.
It's definitely convention. Take the example where there are two aliens on a planet in the Andromeda galaxy, about 2 million light years from Earth. To simplify things let's assume their planet and the Earth are actually at rest relative to each other.

If one of the aliens moves at a speed ##v## away from the direction of the Earth, and uses the Einstein simultaneity convention, then this changes its "now" on Earth by ##\frac v c## times 2 million years. Even at a speed of ##30 m/s## that amounts to several months on Earth.

Every time the alien changes direction, there is a five-month change in the events that are happening "now" on Earth. How can that be physically meaningful?
 
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  • #109
Dale said:
It is definitely a convention. In fact, I think there are at least 3 conventions used here:

First, it is a convention to say that the one-way speed of light is c. This convention has been extensively investigated by Reichenbach and others. Second, it is a convention to use inertial observers. With non-inertial observers the simultaneity
Oh yes, 1 and 2 are pretty obvious, using non-inertial observers is beyond my question, the question concerns only the third point: defining simultaneity for a choosen observer is not a convention, it is a precise term (mathematical and physical too - imho) for this chosen observer.

PAllen's comment suggested (to my perception) otherwise, hence my question.
 
  • #110
To define simultaneity of spatially distant events you need a clock-synchronization convention. The one used by Einstein in his famous paper of 1905 with the two-speed light to synchronize clocks at rest relative to an inertial frame of reference is an example, and it's in a sense preferred, because it leads to the pseudo-Cartesian coordinates in Minkowski space related to this frame, leading to the most simple form of the invariant special-relativistic equations of motion.
 
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  • #111
LBoy said:
defining simultaneity for a choosen observer is not a convention
I disagree. It is indeed a convention as shown most clearly by Reichenbach. It is clearly a completely standard convention, but nonetheless a convention.

In what way can you specify simultaneity for a chosen observer without using all three conventions?

LBoy said:
Oh yes, 1 and 2 are pretty obvious
Yes, they are obvious, but they are still conventions. A convention doesn’t cease being a convention just because it is obvious.
 
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  • #112
Dale said:
Yes, they are obvious, but they are still conventions. A convention doesn’t cease being a convention just because it is obvious.

It is obvious that they are conventions, my bad that I didn't specify that I was thinking about obvious conventions, not about general things being obvious, I will be more precise from now. :)

Dale said:
In what way can you specify simultaneity for a chosen observer without using all three conventions?

In the simplest 2-D case of SR, inertial observers, simultaneity of two events for an observer is defined as there exists a line orhthogonal to the observer's time vector that is joining these two events. Ie these events are in his 3-D "space".
 
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  • #113
It's straightforward to show that @vanhees71's definition #105 follows from the basic convention of Einstein-Poincaré simultaneity [a special case of Reichenbach simultaneity for ##\epsilon = \dfrac{1}{2}##]. If light is emitted from a point ##p_1 \in \gamma## at parameter ##\lambda_1## on the worldline ##\gamma## of an observer, and then reflected at some event ##q## back toward another point ##p_2 \in \gamma## at parameter ##\lambda_2## on the worldline, the event ##p \in \gamma## which is EP-simultaneous with ##q## is the one at parameter\begin{align*}
\lambda = \dfrac{1}{2}(\lambda_1 + \lambda_2)
\end{align*}Assume, to begin, that the 4-velocity ##\mathbf{u}## of the observer is constant, then\begin{align*}
\overrightarrow{p_1 p} = (\lambda - \lambda_1)\mathbf{u} \\
\overrightarrow{p p_2} = (\lambda_2 - \lambda) \mathbf{u}
\end{align*}Meanwhile the vectors ##\overrightarrow{p_1 q} = \overrightarrow{p_1 p} + \overrightarrow{pq}## and ##\overrightarrow{qp_2} = \overrightarrow{qp} + \overrightarrow{pq_2}## are null (they are the paths of a light ray) and therefore\begin{align*}
\overrightarrow{p_1 q} \cdot \overrightarrow{p_1 q} &= (\overrightarrow{p_1 p} + \overrightarrow{pq}) \cdot (\overrightarrow{p_1 p} + \overrightarrow{pq}) \\
&= (\lambda - \lambda_1)^2 \mathbf{u} \cdot \mathbf{u} + 2 (\lambda - \lambda_1)\mathbf{u} \cdot \overrightarrow{pq} + \overrightarrow{pq} \cdot \overrightarrow{pq} \overset{!}{=} 0 \\ \\

\overrightarrow{qp_2} \cdot \overrightarrow{qp_2} &= (\overrightarrow{qp} + \overrightarrow{pp_2}) \cdot (\overrightarrow{qp} + \overrightarrow{p p_2}) \\
&= \overrightarrow{qp} \cdot \overrightarrow{qp} + 2 (\lambda_2 - \lambda) \mathbf{u} \cdot \overrightarrow{qp} + (\lambda_2 - \lambda)^2 \mathbf{u} \cdot \mathbf{u} \overset{!}{=} 0
\end{align*}Assuming ##\mathbf{u}## to be normalised as ##\mathbf{u} \cdot \mathbf{u} = -1##, and re-writing ##\overrightarrow{qp} = - \overrightarrow{pq}##, this becomes\begin{align*}
-(\lambda - \lambda_1)^2 + 2 (\lambda - \lambda_1)\mathbf{u} \cdot \overrightarrow{pq} + \overrightarrow{pq} \cdot \overrightarrow{pq} = 0 \\

\overrightarrow{pq} \cdot \overrightarrow{pq} - 2 (\lambda_2 - \lambda) \mathbf{u} \cdot \overrightarrow{pq} - (\lambda_2 - \lambda)^2 = 0
\end{align*}subtracting:\begin{align*}
(\lambda_2 - \lambda)^2 - (\lambda - \lambda_1)^2 - 2 ( \lambda_1 + \lambda_2)\mathbf{u} \cdot \overrightarrow{pq} &= 0 \\\implies (\lambda_2 + \lambda_1)(\lambda_1 + \lambda_2 - 2\lambda) - 2( \lambda_1 + \lambda_2)\mathbf{u} \cdot \overrightarrow{pq} &= 0
\end{align*}Therefore ##\lambda = \dfrac{1}{2}(\lambda_1 + \lambda_2) \iff \mathbf{u} \cdot \overrightarrow{pq} = 0##. This is the equation of a hyperplane ##\Pi \subseteq \mathbf{R}^4## with normal ##\mathbf{u}##, and is referred to as a surface of simultaneity.

If the 4-velocity is not constant along the worldline, then the above reasoning still holds providing the points ##q## are sufficiently "close" to the worldline [i.e. small compared to the curvature ##1/(\mathbf{a} \cdot \mathbf{a})##, where ##\mathbf{a} = \dfrac{d\mathbf{u}}{d\lambda}##], so that the curvature of the worldline can be neglected.
 
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  • #114
Another way to understand that simultaneity of spatially distant events is conventional in the sense that you need a clock synchronization is to remember that at the most fundamental level all observable facts must be expressed as space-time coincidences.

E.g., if you say that "Alice arrives at the same time in Chicago as Bob arrives in New York" you can only make sure that this is correct by observation, if you have synchronized clocks in Chicago and New York, because all there objectively is in relativity (this is even more pronounced in GR than in SR) are coincidences of points in spacetime. So the above sentence in fact means that the synchronized clocks in Chicago and New York showed the same time as Alice was at her clock's position as Bob's clock when he arrived at his clock's position. Thus the simultaneity of these two events A and B depends on how you synchronized these clocks.

Of course there are more or less convenient clock-synchronization conventions. It's like more or less convenient choices of coordinates for a given situation. E.g., Einstein's standard synchronization convention in SR as described in his paper of 1905 is way more convenient than Reichenbach's example for an alternative synchronization procedure, which leads to much more complicated descriptions:

http://arxiv.org/abs/1001.2375
 
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  • #115
vanhees71 said:
To define simultaneity of spatially distant events you need a clock-synchronization convention. The one used by Einstein in his famous pape

I would like to think that simultaneity is something that is independent of a clock synchronization procedure, like a real and physical measure (or maybe rather a feature of a space time for a choosen observer) with a precise definition (mathematical), regardless of the clock-synchronization procedure. It "is there" as a feature regardless if we can measure it or not.
 
  • #116
Dale said:
With non-inertial observers the simultaneity defined by using the first convention is not even momentarily the same as for momentarily co-moving inertial observers.
Can you elaborate this point, please ? Thanks.
 
  • #117
LBoy said:
I would like to think that simultaneity is something that is independent of a clock synchronization procedure, like a real and physical measure (or maybe rather a feature of a space time for a choosen observer) with a precise definition (mathematical), regardless of the clock-synchronization procedure. It "is there" as a feature regardless if we can measure it or not.
Looking for simultaneity to be physically meaningful is a dead end, in any case, if you wish to study GR.
 
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  • #118
PeroK said:
Looking for simultaneity to be physically meaningful is a dead end, in any case, if you wish to study GR.
Not a doubt here, eventually it can be preciselly defined locally in a tangent space at a point, but physically I think this has no sense (although there is a local "similarity" between a tangent space and a R4 "space-time" with cartesian coordinates, but this makes less and less physical sense anyway as the curvature of spacetime increases...)
 
  • #119
cianfa72 said:
Can you elaborate this point, please ? Thanks.
Yes. This is radar-coordinates which can be applied for non-inertial observers. Radar coordinates are defined by assuming that the second postulate holds even for a non-inertial observer. So for every event the observer sends a radar signal out and gets a radar echo back. The distance to the event is the difference in time (echo - emission) divided by two and the time of the event is the sum divided by two.

I learned about this method from Dolby and Gull’s paper: https://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0104077

See figures 5 and 9 for how simultaneity differs for accelerated and inertial observers in the twin paradox.
 
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  • #120
LBoy said:
Not a doubt here, eventually it can be preciselly defined locally in a tangent space at a point, but physically I think this has no sense (although there is a local "similarity" between a tangent space and a R4 "space-time" with cartesian coordinates, but this makes less and less physical sense anyway as the curvature of spacetime increases...)
A tangent space is a local construction. The only definition of simultaneity that would make any sense in GR is that two events have the same timelike coordinate. And that is manifestly a coordinate-dependent definition.
 
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