Reversible / Irreversible Fundamental Equation

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the fundamental equations of thermodynamics, specifically focusing on the implications of reversible and irreversible processes in closed systems without chemical reactions. Participants explore the relationships between internal energy, entropy, and work, as well as the validity of certain inequalities and equalities in these contexts.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant states that the equations dU=TdS−pdV and dU=dQ+dW should hold true irrespective of the process being reversible or irreversible.
  • Another participant clarifies that the equality applies only to closely neighboring thermodynamic equilibrium states and that integrating along an irreversible path is not valid.
  • A different participant expresses confusion regarding the implications of Reichl's statement and proposes a series of equations to analyze the relationship between work and entropy in reversible and irreversible cases.
  • This participant introduces the concept of generated entropy during irreversible processes, suggesting that it leads to a modified inequality for internal energy.
  • Another participant challenges the use of differentials for irreversible processes and proposes an alternative formulation of the Clausius inequality that incorporates boundary temperature.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the applicability of certain thermodynamic equations to irreversible processes. There is no consensus on the interpretation of Reichl's statement or the validity of the proposed inequalities and formulations.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in applying differential equations to irreversible processes and the dependence on specific definitions, such as boundary temperature versus average temperature.

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As far as I learned, the following statements should be correct (for closed systems, no chemical reactions), irrespective whether the process is reversible or irreversible (since S and V are state variables):

dU=TdS−pdV
dU=dQ+dW

Does this imply, that the statement:

dU≤TdS−pdV

is wrong?
This is e.g. written in [Reichl, L. 2016, Modern Course in Statistical Physics]). Reichl says that "The equality holds for reversible changes, and the inequality holds for changes which are spontaneous."
 
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The equality applies to two closely neighboring (differentially separated) thermodynamic equilibrium states. If you follow a tortuous irreversible path between the same two closely neighboring thermodynamic equilibrium states, then you cannot integrate the equation along this irreversible path. Only if the tortuous path is reversible can you do this. In either case, the differential expression gives the correct result for the change from the initial to the final thermodynamic thermodynamic equilibrium states if they are differentially separated.
 
Thanks for you answer. I agree with you but I'm still a little bit confused by Reichls statement. However, I would also agree with that if the following is true (closed system, no chemical reactions, Volume work being the only work interaction coordinate).
\begin{align*}
dU &= dQ + dW ~~~(1) \\
dU &= dQ_{rev} + dW_{rev} ~~~ (2) \\
dU &= TdS - pdV ~~~ (3) \\
\end{align*}
Then I can insert Clausius definition of Entropy ## dS = dQ_{rev}/T ## into eq. (2):
$$ dU = TdS + dW_{rev} $$
Comparing to eq. (3) yields the relation for reversible work:
$$ dW_{rev} = - pdV $$
For the irreversible case, ##dS \ge dQ/T##, in fact, one could write:
$$ dS = dQ/T + dS_{gen} ~~~ (4) $$
with ##dS_{gen}## being the generated entropy during the process. Inserting eq. (4) into eq. (1) yields:
$$dU = TdS - TdS_{gen} + dW ~~~ (5)$$
or, equivalently, due to the fact that ##dS_{gen}## is always positve:
$$dU \le TdS + dW$$
This last equation is equal to that of Reichl (I wrongly cited it, Reichl did not use -pdV, but rather a general work term).
From eq. (5) and eq. (3) it follows, that:
$$dW = -pdV + TdS_{gen}$$
This would imo make sense, when e.g. compressing a gas irreversibly, one does not only need work to overcome the internal pressure ##-pdV##, but also some work to overcome friction (assuming that ##TdS_{gen}## is actually friction).

Can someone confirm, that this is true?
 
I never work with differentials for irreversible processes. Plus, for irreversible processes, the Clausius inequality should read $$dQ=T_BdS+T_BS_{gen}$$not TdS, where ##T_B## is the boundary temperature of the system with its surroundings rather than the average temperature.
 
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