Can Microwaving Organic Romaine Lettuce Sterilize It and Affect Its Flavor?

[Rach3]

It's labeled "organic" so I'm thinking, what if I microwaved it? Could I sterilize it that way? How long would it take? And would it change the flavor?

 

[zoobyshoe]

Are you high?

 

[Rach3]

Ignore the troll. It seems that hot salads aren't much good at all, so daring death itself I prepared myself a nice balsamic vinegrate over romaine lettuce.

Although - what if one suddenly boiled, then quickly chilled, a lettuce leaf - how would that effect it? Would sterilization necessate a decrease in flavor?

 

[Evo]

Although - what if one suddenly boiled, then quickly chilled, a lettuce leaf - how would that effect it? Would sterilization necessate a decrease in flavor?

That's called blanching. I don't know if blanching would be enough to kill E.coli. I've never blanched a lettuce leaf, so I'm not sure how well it would hold up.

Apparently zooby missed the "death by spinach" thread.

Zooby...DON'T EAT THE SPINACH!

 

[ShawnD]

It's labeled "organic" so I'm thinking, what if I microwaved it? Could I sterilize it that way? How long would it take? And would it change the flavor?

Many foods are already cleaned in a similar way.
http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dbmd/diseaseinfo/foodirradiation.htm#irradbyus
Yes using a microwave would change the flavour. Things never seem to taste the same when you cook or reheat them using a microwave.

 

[Astronuc]

It's labeled "organic" so I'm thinking, what if I microwaved it? Could I sterilize it that way? How long would it take? And would it change the flavor?

Microwaving would probably kill E. Coli and most bacteria, but whether or not it would destroy the toxins is perhaps an uncertainty.

Harmful bacteria are the most common causes of foodborne illnesses. Some bacteria may be present on foods when you purchase them. Raw foods are not sterile. Raw meat and poultry may become contaminated during slaughter. Seafood may become contaminated during harvest or through processing. One in 20,000 eggs may be contaminated with Salmonella inside the egg shell. Produce such as lettuce, tomatoes, sprouts, and melons can become contaminated with Salmonella, Shigella, or Escherichia coli (E. coli) O1577. Contamination can occur during growing, harvesting, processing, storing, shipping, or final preparation. Sources of contamination are varied; however, these items are grown in the soil and therefore may become contaminated during growth or through processing and distribution. Contamination may also occur during food preparation in the restaurant or in the person's kitchen.

When food is cooked and left out for more than 2 hours at room temperature, bacteria can multiply quickly. Most bacteria grow undetected because they do not produce an "off" odor or change the color or texture of the food. Freezing food slows or stops bacteria's growth but does not destroy the bacteria. The microbes can become reactivated when the food is thawed. Refrigeration may slow the growth of some bacteria, but thorough cooking is needed to destroy the bacteria.

http://digestive.niddk.nih.gov/ddiseases/pubs/bacteria/

Microwaving lettuce is unusual, and might change the taste. I have cooked spinach to make a creamed spinach dish (I also add bacon).

The current national E. coli outbreak is apparently limited to particular batch(es) bagged spinach, but it has highlighted the lack of oversight on the bagged food industry.

Natural Selection Foods LLC was linked to the E. coli outbreak that has killed one person and sickened nearly 100 others. Twenty-nine people have been hospitalized, 14 of them with kidney failure. FDA officials said they had received reports of illness in 19 states.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/09/15/health/main2012579.shtml?source=RSSattr=HOME_2012579

On the other hand, apparently E. coli outbreaks are on the rise.
E. Coli Outbreaks Becoming More Common in US
http://healthlink.mcw.edu/article/1031002172.html

 

[Evo]

Apparently last month the FDA approved adding viruses as a food additive to fight contamination in meat.

FDA approves viruses as food additive

Bacteriophages meant to kill harmful bacteria on lunch meats

WASHINGTON (AP) -- A mix of bacteria-killing viruses can be safely sprayed on cold cuts, hot dogs and sausages to combat common microbes that kill hundreds of people a year, federal health officials said Friday in granting the first-ever approval of viruses as a food additive.

The combination of six viruses is designed to be sprayed on ready-to-eat meat and poultry products, including sliced ham and turkey, said John Vazzana, president and chief executive officer of manufacturer Intralytix Inc.

The special viruses, called bacteriophages, are meant to kill strains of the Listeria monocytogenes bacterium, the Food and Drug Administration said in declaring it safe to use on ready-to-eat meats prior to their packaging.

The link is from google's cache http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache....com/2006/US/08/18/edible.virus.ap/index.html

The following explanation is very interesting.

bacteriophage - virus that infects bacteria and sometimes destroys them by lysis, or dissolution of the cell. Bacteriophages, or phages, have a head composed of protein, an inner core of nucleic acid–either deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA) or ribonucleic acid (RNA)–and a hollow protein tail. A particular phage can usually infect only one or a few related species of bacteria; for example, coliphages are DNA-containing viruses that infect only the bacterium Escherichia coli.

http://education.yahoo.com/reference/encyclopedia/entry/bacterio

 

[turbo]

According to the Monterey County Herald, Natural Selection Foods processes about 70% of the pre-packaged salads sold in this country. That would make me wonder where in their processing stream the coliforms got into the spinach. If it was in the field (contaminated irrigation water, perhaps) that's one thing, but if they are recycling their wash water in the processing plant, that could be a bigger problem, and it might not be confined to just the spinach. I am SO glad we have our own garden and grow our own greens.

http://www.montereyherald.com/mld/montereyherald/15541706.htm

 

[Astronuc]

I think its time to raise my own meat in addition to vegetables.

FDA (under the Bush Administration) doesn't exactly have my confidence at the moment.

 

[Evo]

This part really gave me a warm, fuzzy feeling

"As long as it used in accordance with the regulations, we have concluded it's safe," Zajac said. People normally come into contact with phages through food, water and the environment, and they are found in our digestive tracts, the FDA said.

Consumers won't be aware that meat and poultry products have been treated with the spray, Zajac added. The Department of Agriculture will regulate the actual use of the product.

The viruses are grown in a preparation of the very bacteria they kill, and then purified. The FDA had concerns that the virus preparation potentially could contain toxic residues associated with the bacteria. However, testing did not reveal the presence of such residues, which in small quantities likely wouldn't cause health problems anyway, the FDA said."

Ok, well I'm convinced now. I'll definitely be buying that tiller attachment for my brushcutter now. How could they have approved this so quickly, it says this company only petitioned the FDA in 2002.

They're going to use this worldwide.

 

[turbo]

I think its time to raise my own meat in addition to vegetables.

FDA (under the Bush Administration) doesn't exactly have my confidence at the moment.

We're pretty lucky. There's a family farm a few miles from here that is working toward their organic certification. They raise Black Angus cattle in fields with real pasturage and fresh water - lean tender beef. Their chickens are free-ranging, and they are also very tasty. You cannot get that kind of quality in a supermarket, though without the middle-men entailed in large-scale distribution, their prices are comparable to and often lower than the stores. We just call and say "can I pick up 20 chickens next weekend?" and they're ready for us when we swing by. Their hamburg can be hard to grill sometimes, because the fat content is so low that the patties don't bind real well - a couple of eggs mixed in the burger (along with the mandatory garlic, onion, and pepper) usually fixes that, though.

 

[Moonbear]

According to the Monterey County Herald, Natural Selection Foods processes about 70% of the pre-packaged salads sold in this country.

Correction for that statement:

Earthbound Farm sells more than 70 percent of the country's bagged organic salad and processes about 30 million salad servings each week, according to the company. Its produce can be found in nearly three-quarters of U.S. supermarkets and in all 50 states and Canada.

Though, from that article, they do also package non-organic brands as well. Their organic spinach is what's known to be contaminated, but now it makes more sense why they're pulling so much from shelves if they don't know where the contamination originated or if it's possible cross-contamination occurred between the organic and traditional spinach. They don't indicate in the article what percentage of the total market they process.

 

[turbo]

Though, from that article, they do also package non-organic brands as well. Their organic spinach is what's known to be contaminated, but now it makes more sense why they're pulling so much from shelves if they don't know where the contamination originated or if it's possible cross-contamination occurred between the organic and traditional spinach. They don't indicate in the article what percentage of the total market they process.

Thank you for the correction. My first thought was that washing bagged greens would be very water-intensive, so they likely have some kind of water-reclamation and reuse program. Unless they have a really foolproof system of sanitizing the water before reuse, coliforms could spread through the plant's washing system, regardless of how they got there. I hope they will be very up-front about what they find out about the source of the contamination.

 

[Skyhunter]

Correction for that statement:


Though, from that article, they do also package non-organic brands as well. Their organic spinach is what's known to be contaminated, but now it makes more sense why they're pulling so much from shelves if they don't know where the contamination originated or if it's possible cross-contamination occurred between the organic and traditional spinach. They don't indicate in the article what percentage of the total market they process.

It is the non-organic brands that are contaminated.

From Earthbound Farms http://www.ebfarm.com/press/foodsafe/

At this point in the investigation, all of the manufacturing codes taken from spinach packaging retained by patients are from packages of conventional (non-organic) spinach. However, the investigation is still underway.

The source of contamination is believed to be in the irrigation system.

[edit] I had fresh organic spinach in my salad this evening. However it comes from the local farmers market. The model of the mass production, mass distribution, should never have been applied to our food. Local production and consumption would keep contamination like this from spreading all over the country.

 

[Skyhunter]

I hope they will be very up-front about what they find out about the source of the contamination.

I think Earthbound will be open about the problem. I don't agree with their industrial organic model, but I believe them to be ethical capitalists.

Hmmm is that an oxymoron?

 

[Mk]

Beware of the organic-industrial-capitalist complex.

 

[Rach3]

Local production and consumption would keep contamination like this from spreading all over the country.

Yeah, who wants to eat junk like wheat, corn, and bananas? Local production all the way! From now on I won't eat anything except local-grown soy, tobacco, and cotton. Meanwhile, Hawaiians will subsist on a 100%-pineapple diet.

Another case of dramatic overreaction to media fearmongering. One vegetable-related death, and people like Skyhunter think we should stop eating food altogether. Anyone feel like putting things in perspective? Perhaps compare the food safety of the 21st century and the pre-pasteurization, pre-refrigaration, unregulated, antibiotic-free, totally organic 19th century? Hmm?

 

[Moonbear]

Yeah, who wants to eat junk like wheat, corn, and bananas? Local production all the way! From now on I won't eat anything except local-grown soy, tobacco, and cotton. Meanwhile, Hawaiians will subsist on a 100%-pineapple diet.

Makes me feel bad for the folks in AZ! But, sure, yeah, if we all ate locally grown produce, we wouldn't have this spread all over the country, instead, you could have had over 100 people all in one small town get infected. The distance the food is shipped isn't the problem.

 

[Moonbear]

It is the non-organic brands that are contaminated.

Up until yesterday, they were saying it was their organic brands, so which source do we trust today? This is sounding more bumbled by the moment! Why do they need product codes to determine if people have organic spinach? Shouldn't it say it right on the package? Do they have mislabeled packages too?

 

[Skyhunter]

Up until yesterday, they were saying it was their organic brands, so which source do we trust today? This is sounding more bumbled by the moment! Why do they need product codes to determine if people have organic spinach? Shouldn't it say it right on the package? Do they have mislabeled packages too?

Who are they?

I think you must have misunderstood. The contaminated spinach was the Natural Selections brand, which is non-organic. Every article or news report that I have heard or read has been consistent on this point.

If you have a link that says otherwise please source it.

Mono-crop industrial agriculture, including what has become known as industrial organic is not sustainable. Rach3, there is no need for hyperbole. I was not advocating that we only eat local food, I was advocating eating more local food.

Why ship it across the country, if a local farm can produce it?

I shop at farmers markets twice a week. When I was visiting family in the mid-west this summer I was surprised at how meager the produce was in some of the most fertile agricultural land in the country. The fields are all dedicated to growing commodity corn and soybeans for ADM and Monsanto.

A good book on the subject is http://www.michaelpollan.com/omnivore.php by Michael Pollan

 

[Evo]

Who are they?

I think you must have misunderstood. The contaminated spinach was the Natural Selections brand, which is non-organic. Every article or news report that I have heard or read has been consistent on this point.

No, Natural Selections is the parent company, they are a processing plant. The majority of their growers are organic, although a lot aren't certified organic. The tainted spinach is very likely an organic brand, even if it's not Earthbound Farms

They package for the following brands -
Bellissima, Jansal Valley, Ready Pac,
Cheney Brothers, Mann River Ranch,
Coastline, Mills Family Farm, Riverside Farms,
Compliments, Natural Selection Foods, Snoboy,
Cross Valley, Nature's Basket, Superior,
D'Arrigo Brothers, O Organic, Sysco,
Dole Premium Fresh ,Tanimura & Antle,
Earthbound Farm, President's Choice, The Farmer's Market,
Emeril Pride of San Juan, Trader Joe's,
Fresh Point, Pro-Mark,
Green Harvest, Rave Spinach

If you have a link that says otherwise please source it.

Here you go. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/17/us/17spinach.html

 

[Skyhunter]

The ever accommodating Evo. Thank you for the info and the link.

I see now why the confusion. Since Earthbound specializes in organic, and organic is mentioned so frequently, people are assuming it is organic spinach. My guess is the reporter did not know when the article was written that the contaminated spinach was non-organic.

However, from the NYT article:

With the wide publication of the Earthbound Farm name in connection with the outbreak, consumers wondered whether organic farm practices were implicated in the contamination. But no conclusive link has emerged between the infection and organic farming, Natural Selection executives and organic farming experts said.

I would be more concerned with nonorganic greens, since there is less regulation and oversight.

Farming procedures in conventional, nonorganic fields are not regulated by the government. The production process, Mr. Chelling said, involves a host of people, like pickers and produce stockers, as well as many kinds of farm equipment and cleaning machinery.

Another case of dramatic overreaction to media fearmongering. One vegetable-related death, and people like Skyhunter think we should stop eating food altogether. Anyone feel like putting things in perspective? Perhaps compare the food safety of the 21st century and the pre-pasteurization, pre-refrigaration, unregulated, antibiotic-free, totally organic 19th century? Hmm?

I don't think we need to go that far. And I don't appreciate being stereotyped.

The only media fear mongering has been the media bias against organics. Even though the contaminated spinach was non organic.

If you consider people like professor Lee Riley to be like me, then I guess I am in good company.

The country's centralized food processing system is at least partly to blame because produce from one source is distributed all over the country. If just one corner of farmland becomes contaminated, bacteria can spread all over the United States.

"We don't see this disease in India, Africa, China. We only see it in highly technologically advanced countries, and the reason is because of this highly centralized food processing system," said Lee Riley, professor of infectious disease and epidemiology at UC Berkeley.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/09/19/MNGHKL89H81.DTL

 

[russ_watters]

It is the non-organic brands that are contaminated.

From Earthbound Farms http://www.ebfarm.com/press/foodsafe/

That quote no longer appears on that page...

However, from the NYT article:

You are drawing a conclusion based on lack of evidence: there is no firm link to any spinach yet - no contaminated spinach has actually been found. So right now all they have is what the sick people are saying. So what that quote is actually saying is that they think it is the organic spinach, but they haven't proven it yet by finding contaminated spinach.

Btw, though, that sfgate link is specific in saying that it is Earthbound Farms - one of the organic labels of Natural Selection foods - that is the focus of the investigation.

And ugh, not SFGate again. I'm getting sick of that tabloid. It's horrible. No, you don't see E Coli in Africa and China - they wouldn't know it if they saw it and they are too busy dealing with more archaic diseases like dysentery and botulism and malaria to notice!

I would be more concerned with nonorganic greens, since there is less regulation and oversight.

How are organic farms regulated? From what I've seen, neither conventional nor organic farms are regulated.

 

[Skyhunter]

Now this is odd?

The link I quoted yesterday no longer contains the paragraph I quoted

 

[Skyhunter]

You are drawing a conclusion based on lack of evidence: there is no firm link to any spinach yet - no contaminated spinach has actually been found. So right now all they have is what the sick people are saying. So what that quote is actually saying is that they think it is the organic spinach, but they haven't proven it yet by finding contaminated spinach.

No, what the quote is actually saying is what it says. It makes no implications.

Btw, though, that sfgate link is specific in saying that it is Earthbound Farms - one of the organic labels of Natural Selection foods - that is the focus of the investigation.

And ugh, not SFGate again. I'm getting sick of that tabloid. It's horrible. No, you don't see E Coli in Africa and China - they wouldn't know it if they saw it and they are too busy dealing with more archaic diseases like dysentery and botulism and malaria to notice! How are organic farms regulated? From what I've seen, neither conventional nor organic farms are regulated.

Since your claims are unsourced, I prefer the professor of infectious disease and epidemiology's opinion over yours.

I have no idea what farming experience you have, so I have even less of an idea what you may have seen.

Organic Farms are certified and inspected for compliance.

If you want to see more, here is a good place to look.

http://www.ams.usda.gov/nop/NOP/standards/RegImpAssess.html

 

[Evo]

From the NYT article I posted, it stated that so far NO spinach has been found with E.coli in any brand and they are still trying to track down the source, and that it's possible that other brands may be implicated.

What if it's not the spinach?

Also I read where farmers were plowing under entire fields of spinach. WHY? First, if there isn't any E.coli present, it's safe, and it's definitely safe once it's cooked even if it was contaminated. If I can't get my fix of Boston Market creamed spinach, I will go off the deep end. This craziness better not spread to cooked spinach.

 

[Moonbear]

I would be more concerned with nonorganic greens, since there is less regulation and oversight.

Except that the greens that Natural Selections packages as non-organic actually are following the same processes for growing as their organic farms...because they are the farms that are undergoing the process of obtaining organic certification. They are still using organic processes on those farms, they just can't call it certified organic. This was all in the NYT article Evo linked. In the other thread on this topic, I linked to several other sources that also were saying it was their organic spinach. The thing all the people promoting organic foods have forgotten is that the reason we do what we do in traditional farming is because it keeps the food chain safe from food-borne diseases.

However, there is no guarantee yet that any spinach is involved. Afterall, with them selling to so much of the market, it might just be coincidence that a lot of people getting sick had it in their fridges, or it could be that it's the end of summer, other foods have been sitting in hot cars too long, and it's more likely that people not handling food properly (not washing hands and countertops or grocery store conveyor belts after touching raw meat) are transferring it to the spinach when they take it out of the bag.

Quite frankly, in the big scheme of things, I think it's a huge overreaction to fear all spinach now. Most likely, since they can't find any contaminated spinach, either that wasn't the real source, or it was one plant contaminated in an entire field and the leaves just got spread out over many bags.

In the initial reports on the outbreak, I saw a comment that this strain has a fairly long incubation time, which makes it even harder to trace a source if it could be several days from contact to developing symptoms. I still want to go back and confirm that since I just saw it in passing in one of the news articles I read.

 

[Moonbear]

What if it's not the spinach?

I just posted the same thought without seeing your comment first.

Also I read where farmers were plowing under entire fields of spinach. WHY?

I sure hope it's not out of fear of contamination. My guess is that it's picking time and with nobody packaging and selling it right now, they're just going to lose the crop and have it rot in the field, just plow it under now and try to get in their next crop early (depending where they are if they still have a fall/winter growing season, or are just plowing early and taking their losses).

First, if there isn't any E.coli present, it's safe, and it's definitely safe once it's cooked even if it was contaminated. If I can't get my fix of Boston Market creamed spinach, I will go off the deep end. This craziness better not spread to cooked spinach.

At least I have a supply of frozen spinach in the freezer, so I won't be entirely without if they get that crazy. The TV news (not sure which one I had on last night, I wasn't really focused on it) was interviewing folks on the street, and they had people saying they'd NEVER buy spinach again! Talk about an overreaction! If anything, that we call 100 people spread out over the entire country a serious outbreak worthy of pulling all related products off the shelves is more a testament to the safety of our food supply than anything else. If our food supply weren't so safe, nobody would notice or report a handful of cases of "food poisoning" because it would be so routine.

 

[russ_watters]

No, what the quote is actually saying is what it says. It makes no implications.

If it makes no implications, then it is an utterly useless thing to say. Why did you post it? What is your point?

All that quote tells us at face value is that the investigation is ongoing and as yet not conclusive. Right...so? We all know the investigation hasn't finished yet. And the evidence is still pointing in that direction.

Since your claims are unsourced

I cited your source!

Organic Farms are certified and inspected for compliance. If you want to see more, here is a good place to look.

Um, right... so you're agreeing with me? Compliance with being organic has nothing to do with health/safety.

Look, I can't provide evidence of something that doesn't exist. If there are regulations governing farming practices (for health reasons) for organic farms, you need to provide evidence of them. The articles already referenced talk about the lack of regulations on farms, but do not differentiate or specify anything about organic farms.

 

[Skyhunter]

If it makes no implications, then it is an utterly useless thing to say. Why did you post it? What is your point?

The OP is about sterilizing romaine lettuce because it is organic. Implying that there is a connection between organic practices and the E. coli outbreak.

The quote...

With the wide publication of the Earthbound Farm name in connection with the outbreak, consumers wondered whether organic farm practices were implicated in the contamination. But no conclusive link has emerged between the infection and organic farming, Natural Selection executives and organic farming experts said.

... addresses such consumer questions about possible connections to organic practices.

I think it relevant to the thread.

All that quote tells us at face value is that the investigation is ongoing and as yet not conclusive. Right...so? We all know the investigation hasn't finished yet.

Exactly, we agree up to this point.

And the evidence is still pointing in that direction.

What evidence points to organic practices.

I have seen no evidence at all, except for the coincidence of everyone infected having eaten bagged spinach from a common source. No E. coli has been found except in the patients. This does point to the spinach, and the farms and processing plants, but not to the practice of organic farming.

That said, the Salinas Valley has had problems with E. coli for the past decade.

The outbreak is the 20th time in a decade that leafy greens from Monterey County have been contaminated with E. coli, and government officials already had warned growers and processors in the Salinas Valley to improve their conditions.

from your favorite website...
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/09/20/BAGQSL905Q1.DTL

I cited your source!

No, you refuted my source with your opinion.

Lee Riley, professor of infectious disease and epidemiology at UC Berkeley, said:

"We don't see this disease in India, Africa, China. We only see it in highly technologically advanced countries, and the reason is because of this highly centralized food processing system,"

You said:

No, you don't see E Coli in Africa and China - they wouldn't know it if they saw it and they are too busy dealing with more archaic diseases like dysentery and botulism and malaria to notice!

IMO Lee Riley's opinion on this subject carries more weight than yours.

Um, right... so you're agreeing with me? Compliance with being organic has nothing to do with health/safety.

Look, I can't provide evidence of something that doesn't exist. If there are regulations governing farming practices (for health reasons) for organic farms, you need to provide evidence of them. The articles already referenced talk about the lack of regulations on farms, but do not differentiate or specify anything about organic farms.

Yes I do agree.

I did not intend to imply that the inspections were directly for sanitary procedures. What I was implying is that organic growers and processors are more vigilant against cross contamination, and are inspected, so they would be more likely than the average totally unregulated grower to follow more stringent sanitary procedures. Just speculation based on my experience with organic growers.

 

[Skyhunter]

Investigators have found E. coli in a package of spinach.

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=nation_world&id=4582344

The bag of Dole baby spinach tested positive for the same strain of E. coli linked to the outbreak, said Dr. David Acheson, of the Food and Drug Administration's Center for Food Safety and Applied Nutrition. Dole is one of the brands of spinach recalled Friday by Natural Selection Foods LLC, of San Juan Bautista, Calif.

 

[Evo]

Now to determine where the E.Coili was introduced and why the majority of patients with E.coli had reportedly eaten from bags of the organic brands of Natural Selections. Was there enough contamination outside the bags to cause E.coli? I just want to be able to eat spinach again. I will never trust organic brands to be safe, they just do not meet stringent enough health controls. They only (if *certified* mean they don't use pesticides). I don't care about pesticides, they're the least of my worries.

 

[Skyhunter]

Now to determine where the E.Coili was introduced and why the majority of patients with E.coli had reportedly eaten from bags of the organic brands of Natural Selections. Was there enough contamination outside the bags to cause E.coli? I just want to be able to eat spinach again.

Here is a link to EarthBound farms and their latest statement.

http://www.ebfarm.com/press/SpinachUpdates/

Earlier today, the New Mexico Department of Health announced a link to e coli O157 in an opened, leftover bag of spinach from a case patient. The product was conventional spinach, packed in our facility. The strain matched the outbreak strain.

I will never trust organic brands to be safe, they just do not meet stringent enough health controls.

They meet the same health controls as non organic...none.

They only (if *certified* mean they don't use pesticides). I don't care about pesticides, they're the least of my worries.

Actually to be certified organic requires more than elimination of pesticides. But to fear organics because of this outbreak is reactionary.

E. coli facts

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=nation_world&id=4565902

Every year in the U.S.:

Approximately 73,000 people contract E. coli.

Approximately 61 people die from the infection.

 

[Evo]

Sorry to keep ragging on organic food, but a bit of wax and some pesticide residue never bothered me. Bayer has experimental farms less than a mile from me where they grow "glow in the dark" corn and other mutant vegetables and carry out research on killing insects. It won't be long before I start to glow. I won't live long enough to see the effects and I spawned years before I moved here, so my offspring are safe.

 

[russ_watters]

What evidence points to organic practices.

The anecdotal evidence alluded to in the above links and the fact that the organic brand name is the one the investigators keep mentioning.

I realize that a non-organic product was positively identified as having been contaminated. We'll see if that's the only product line that has it... If it is, in fact, due to a contaminated production facility, there is a good chance that many product lines are contaminated.

This does point to the spinach, and the farms and processing plants, but not to the practice of organic farming.

I haven't said anything negative about the practice of organic farming - I have just said (and you have now acknowledged) that it is just as unregulated as regular farming as far as health and safety goes. You were the one claiming that organic was better due to better regulation, which you now admit was wrong.

No, you refuted my source with your opinion.

Lee Riley, professor of infectious disease and epidemiology at UC Berkeley, said:

You said:

IMO Lee Riley's opinion on this subject carries more weight than yours.

Oh. I thought you were talking about the previous paragraph. Regardless, Dr. Riley is an obvious crackpot. e coli doesn't exist in Africa? Perhaps they don't notice it because they have bigger problems (as I suggested), but he's straightforwardly wrong about it not existing in Africa. Here's the first hit from Google on it: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11394181&dopt=Abstract

Molecular epidemiology of Escherichia coli isolated from young South African children with diarrhoeal diseases.

A hippie crackpot from Berkeley? I'm shocked!

 

[Skyhunter]

Sorry to keep ragging on organic food, but a bit of wax and some pesticide residue never bothered me. Bayer has experimental farms less than a mile from me where they grow "glow in the dark" corn and other mutant vegetables and carry out research on killing insects. It won't be long before I start to glow. I won't live long enough to see the effects and I spawned years before I moved here, so my offspring are safe.

Organic is more about sustainability, however if your only concern is yourself and your immediate offspring, then I agree, you have little to worry about.

 

[Skyhunter]

The E. coli contamination is probably from the field, likely it is occurring in the irrigation system. The problem has existed in the Salinas Valley for 10 years. So far all the product codes, and the actual spinach were non organic. that leads me to believe it is from one of the recent farms. Since it takes three years to become certified organic.

From what I know about EarthBound farms, they are spreading their organic model to improve agricultural sustainability. If they have acquired farms that have problems, I believe that their model will actually improve sanitary conditions on these farms. What I would like to see is all farms be regulated to meet health and sanitary standards. If this were the case and the fees were spread around, organics would be cheaper. Equalize the subsidies and organic produce would become competitive with industrial produce. this could go a long way to restoring the small family farms ability to be competitive.

The greatest advantage of organics is that by not using chemical fertilizers, pesticides, and herbicides, the farmer does not kill off the myriad of living microbes in the soil, keeping the topsoil healthy and not depleting it. Some of the smaller farmers have gone beyond organic, and scoff at the term since the USDA has developed a certification program. Using mixed crops and bio-intensive agriculture they are actually producing topsoil in their fields as opposed to depleting it.

Being vegan I eat a lot of vegetables. I can attest from personal experience that the organic produce I get from my local farmers market is far superior in taste and quality to anything I can get at a super market, even ones that specialize in organics.

Regardless, Dr. Riley is an obvious crackpot. e coli doesn't exist in Africa? Perhaps they don't notice it because they have bigger problems (as I suggested), but he's straightforwardly wrong about it not existing in Africa. Here's the first hit from Google on it: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11394181&dopt=Abstract A hippie crackpot from Berkeley? I'm shocked!

I believe he was referring to the spread of the disease. Of course E. coli exists everywhere that there are mammals. His point, not well illustrated by the reporter in that SFGate rag, is that our model of mass production and mass distribution is what enables the bacteria to spread across the country.

 

[Evo]

Being vegan I eat a lot of vegetables. I can attest from personal experience that the organic produce I get from my local farmers market is far superior in taste and quality to anything I can get at a super market, even ones that specialize in organics.

You really can't taste a difference between fresh organic or fresh non-organic produce. They brought that up in the articles on the spinach, there's just no difference. Of course something ripened naturally on the plant will taste better then something picked green and shipped, organic or non-organic doesn't matter. The non-organic produce usually looks better though. I buy fruits and vegetables from an elderly farmer in my neighborhood, but it's not organic, he's a traditional farmer.

 

[tribdog]

you can't taste a difference because there isn't a difference. The only difference is in which bag you put the spinich in.

 

[Skyhunter]

You really can't taste a difference between fresh organic or fresh non-organic produce. They brought that up in the articles on the spinach, there's just no difference. Of course something ripened naturally on the plant will taste better then something picked green and shipped, organic or non-organic doesn't matter. The non-organic produce usually looks better though.

Without a doubt the freshness is the most important ingredient for taste. One of the reasons we shop at least twice a week for produce.

I buy fruits and vegetables from an elderly farmer in my neighborhood, but it's not organic, he's a traditional farmer.

Buying local products, is more important for sustainability than buying organic.

Here is a good article about spinach.

http://www.grist.org/comments/food/2006/09/21/E-coli/index.html?source=daily

The organic question distracts from the real story behind the outbreak: consolidation of production. The San Francisco Chronicle reports that California produces three-quarters of the spinach consumed in the United States -- and of that, fully three-quarters comes from Monterey County, which encompasses Salinas Valley.

Natural Selection Foods buys, processes, and packs salad greens for such giants as Dole, Trader Joe's, and Sysco, among others. The company's Earthbound Farm brand boasts on its website that it produces "[m]ore than 7 out of 10 organic salads sold in grocery stores" in the U.S.

In 1999, Salinas-based Tanimura & Antle, the largest U.S. fresh-vegetable grower and shipper, with 40,000 acres under cultivation in the United States and Mexico, bought a 33 percent stake in Natural Selection/Earthbound.

Given Natural Selection's scale, it's no surprise that an outbreak in a small region of California's central coast could repeatedly wreak havoc nationwide.

It appears that the initial source of the deadly strain is from the intestines of grain fed beef.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/21/opinion/21planck.html?ex=1158984000&en=4243879375d8130f&ei=5087

First, some basic facts about this usually harmless bacterium: E. coli is abundant in the digestive systems of healthy cattle and humans, and if your potato salad happened to be carrying the average E. coli, the acid in your gut is usually enough to kill it.

But the villain in this outbreak, E. coli O1577, is far scarier, at least for humans. Your stomach juices are not strong enough to kill this acid-loving bacterium, which is why it’s more likely than other members of the E. coli family to produce abdominal cramps, diarrhea, fever and, in rare cases, fatal kidney failure.

Where does this particularly virulent strain come from? It’s not found in the intestinal tracts of cattle raised on their natural diet of grass, hay and other fibrous forage. No, O157 thrives in a new — that is, recent in the history of animal diets — biological niche: the unnaturally acidic stomachs of beef and dairy cattle fed on grain, the typical ration on most industrial farms. It’s the infected manure from these grain-fed cattle that contaminates the groundwater and spreads the bacteria to produce, like spinach, growing on neighboring farms.

In 2003, The Journal of Dairy Science noted that up to 80 percent of dairy cattle carry O157. (Fortunately, food safety measures prevent contaminated fecal matter from getting into most of our food most of the time.) Happily, the journal also provided a remedy based on a simple experiment. When cows were switched from a grain diet to hay for only five days, O157 declined 1,000-fold.

This is good news. In a week, we could choke O157 from its favorite home — even if beef cattle were switched to a forage diet just seven days before slaughter, it would greatly reduce cross-contamination by manure of, say, hamburger in meat-packing plants. Such a measure might have prevented the E. coli outbreak that plagued the Jack in the Box fast food chain in 1993.

Unfortunately, it would take more than a week to reduce the contamination of ground water, flood water and rivers — all irrigation sources on spinach farms — by the E-coli-infected manure from cattle farms.

http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/prodltr2.html is a Letter to California Firms that Grow, Pack, Process, or Ship Fresh and Fresh-cut Lettuce from the FDA

In June 2004, the California Department of Health Services, Food and Drug Branch (CDHS-FDB) initiated multi-agency, collaborative research aimed at identifying the environmental reservoirs for E. coli O1577, and understanding how lettuce may become contaminated. In a preliminary report presented at the August 2005 annual meeting of the International Association for Food Protection, E. coli O1577 was isolated from sediment in an irrigation canal bordering a ranch that had been identified in three separate outbreaks. The ranch is bowl-shaped; it sits upon a drained lake, and is highly susceptible to localized flooding. Expanded sampling in the Santa Rita Creek and the Salinas Valley area indicate that creeks and rivers in the Salinas watershed are contaminated periodically with E. coli O1577. The specific source of contamination that led to the outbreaks was not identified. However, several possible sources of contamination were identified, both on the ranch initially studied and upstream. Although it is unlikely that contamination in all 19 outbreaks was caused by flooding from agricultural water sources, we would like to take this opportunity to clarify that FDA considers ready to eat crops (such as lettuce) that have been in contact with flood waters to be adulterated due to potential exposure to sewage, animal waste, heavy metals, pathogenic microorganisms, or other contaminants.

[edit] BTW California had a lot of rain last season. Which probably meant a lot of flooding. I will check that factor later. [/edit]

So I stand on my earlier premise that...

The model of the mass production, mass distribution, should never have been applied to our food. Local production and consumption would keep contamination like this from spreading all over the country.

...and am reaffirmed in my belief that a vegan diet, is the better diet.

If the cattle were grass fed organic, perhaps the water used to irrigate our plants would be less likely to become contaminated.

 

[Skyhunter]

Dr. Riley is an obvious crackpot. e coli doesn't exist in Africa? Perhaps they don't notice it because they have bigger problems (as I suggested), but he's straightforwardly wrong about it not existing in Africa. Here's the first hit from Google on it: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11394181&dopt=Abstract A hippie crackpot from Berkeley? I'm shocked!

An obvious crackpot?

Perhaps you should get to know Dr. Lee W. Riley. He doesn't fit the crackpot profile.

"At the time of that (1982) outbreak, there was no knowledge that E. coli could cause a disease like this, so nobody believed it," said Lee Riley, a professor of infectious disease and epidemiology at UC Berkeley who was one of the lead investigators for the CDC in the McDonald's case and an author of the first paper published on E. coli in the New England Journal of Medicine

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/09/23/MNGOGLBFOB1.DTL

The probelm with E. coli is not spinach or any other type of plant food. It is beef.

http://www.organicconsumers.org/Organic/ecolimyths.cfm#E

According to microbiologist Russell, acid-resistant strains of bacteria
have evolved to overcome the protective barrier of the gastric stomach.
The ongoing process of natural selection allows organisms with the appropriate
genes to survive and multiply where others cannot. Because cattle have
been fed high-grain, growth-promoting diets for more than 40 years,
he says, there has been ample opportunity to select acid-resistant forms.

Further research is needed to identify the acid-resistance genes of E.
coli, but Russell says that "common laboratory strains" of E. coli appear
to lack the necessary DNA to survive acidic gastrointestinal environments.

"In the meantime, now that we know where the acid-resistant E. coli are
coming from, we can control them with a relatively inexpensive change
in diet," Russell says. "This strategy has the potential to control the production of
other acid-resistant bacteria, including virulent strains of E. coli that
have not yet evolved."

A brief period of hay-feeding immediately before slaughter "should not
affect either carcass size or meat quality,"
and the diet change could be implemented with minimal expense and
inconvenience to feedlot operators, according
to Donald H. Beermann, Cornell professor of animal science.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/05/010511074623.htm

Finally, grain-based diets can promote Escherichia coli (E. coli) within the digestive tract of cattle, and these E. coli are more likely to survive acid shocks that mimic the human gastric stomach. This discovery, first reported by Russell and colleagues in 1998 (Science, 11 September), has now been confirmed. Other USDA scientists have likewise shown that cattle switched from grain-based diets to hay were less likely to shed harmful E. coli 01577 in feces.