Science in danger? Science persecution in XXI century.

[AlexES16]

Im really worried about how people, at least here in my country El Salvador are very hateful or attackers of science.

Here is my anectode:

I was receiving a launch from an institution that gives courses on reparing computers, I was eating with other 15 people, i kinda knew those people after spending 3 weeks in the course.
Some guy started a conversation saying that he was skeptic to religion, I added to the conversation saying that for me science should be suported and science is good for understanding the universe and for some people its a source of entertainment and help us to have a better life, and that i don't see how science should always be in fight with religion, Suddenly people started saying things like:

-Science is wrong and crazy
-Science is a religion for other people
-Science causes a lot of destruction
-Laws of Physics are useless and like dogmas
-Evolution is the most ignorant thing ever tought, about evolution people even started insulting and being very disrespectful
-I hate science and scientist are bad people and anti-social
-etc.

A guy even became violent and very very disrespectful, insulting and saying things like
are you a scientist?, you better shut up! bahh those scientist lie when they say that 2 bodies fall with the same acceleration, that's ignorant and stupid(sorry can i say this word in the forum) they can't even probe that, so you wana study physics, bahhh you ignorant that's useless.

The irony is that those people were preparing to repair computers which is a scientific and technological good.

I heard other people that hate science. I don't know how is the situation in other countries and how this goes for the future. Does science even have a future?, with global warming, energy crisis and other things, people blame science blindly, they say that causes the person to become bad and amoral and things like that.


What do you people think? Can something be made to defense science?

 

[AlexES16]

Is there a prosperous future for science in the XXI century?

 

[Evo]

What do you people think? Can something be made to defense science?

Science doesn't need to be defended. This is a case of frightened, close minded, and uniformed people. It's unlikely you'll be able to get through a lifetime of indoctrination.

 

[Upisoft]

In my country, Bulgaria, you'd have difficult time to find anyone who will attack science. I was quite surprised several years ago when I found there is a "debate" over the theory of evolution. At first I was laughing hard when I read the "evidence" presented by so called creationists. I'm laughing no more. I think these people are dangerous. I hope they never get access to the nuclear arsenal of the world.

 

[JaredJames]

What Evo said.

These people don't want to learn and that is the important point here. They have been brought up with belief in [insert belief system] and they don't want to accept science.

These aren't simply people who don't understand science, it goes far deeper.

I find there are different type of people when it comes to science. Those who understand it and have a general acceptance (with a similar stance as these forum rules - proven sources etc), those who accept every little 'sciencey' fact that is pushed on them and risk a potentially skewed view, those who don't understand it and will argue against it based on what they think they know, and those who don't want to understand it.

A lot of my family fall into the "argue based on what they think they know" group. I don't mind this group so much, it may take a bit of time to get them to understand something, but with a good explanation and showing some evidence they eventually understand and will accept it.

The people you mention are in the final group. They have no intention of trying to understand it and emanate a sort of fear towards science in general. Arguing with these people is futile and won't achieve anything.

The problem is, the majority of the population fall into one of the above two labels.

 

[Jack21222]

Wait, they were angry about uniform acceleration due to gravity?! I can kinda understand the emotional appeal to be against evolution... but gravity?

These people are clearly morons of the highest order, and have no business being in the same country as a scientist.

 

[AlexES16]

Science doesn't need to be defended.

On the contray we should always give counter-arguments and be ready to fight or fight every day this kind of thinking, we have to fight every day, the only way to progress is to fight for more not less not the same, stagnation is defeat.


A lot of people can be matiupulated very easy.

 

[AlexES16]

In my country, Bulgaria, you'd have difficult time to find anyone who will attack science. I was quite surprised several years ago when I found there is a "debate" over the theory of evolution. At first I was laughing hard when I read the "evidence" presented by so called creationists. I'm laughing no more. I think these people are dangerous. I hope they never get access to the nuclear arsenal of the world.

Exactly this kind of people some times get really violent, and some times they can't use reason so they use violence.

Personally i think

JUSTICE ONLY APLIES TO EQUALS

if they get power or something its going to be dangerous.
Bulgaria is high HDI country, intelligent people there.

 

[AlexES16]

What Evo said.

These people don't want to learn and that is the important point here. They have been brought up with belief in [insert belief system] and they don't want to accept science.

These aren't simply people who don't understand science, it goes far deeper.

I find there are different type of people when it comes to science. Those who understand it and have a general acceptance (with a similar stance as these forum rules - proven sources etc), those who accept every little 'sciencey' fact that is pushed on them and risk a potentially skewed view, those who don't understand it and will argue against it based on what they think they know, and those who don't want to understand it.

A lot of my family fall into the "argue based on what they think they know" group. I don't mind this group so much, it may take a bit of time to get them to understand something, but with a good explanation and showing some evidence they eventually understand and will accept it.

The people you mention are in the final group. They have no intention of trying to understand it and emanate a sort of fear towards science in general. Arguing with these people is futile and won't achieve anything.

The problem is, the majority of the population fall into one of the above two labels.

If there is no solution for those people, that means its really a problem.


How we defend progress from this people
How we fight them is they get power any ideas?

 

[AlexES16]

Wait, they were angry about uniform acceleration due to gravity?! I can kinda understand the emotional appeal to be against evolution... but gravity?

These people are clearly morons of the highest order, and have no business being in the same country as a scientist.

Yep that's why we are a third world country. Most of them were bad students and some already have sons and they were joung, with no title and poor.

 

[AlexES16]

I don't know but maybe we can end something like the game

Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri: In this game there were different human factions based on ideology and way of life.

-There was a faction called the belivers, they were very religous fanatics.
And on the other hand there was the Universty of the Planet which were totally science oriented

A fight plan could be showing them how good is the life of a science oriented society and the general benefits of science. It is also a personal fight for science oriented people, they have to be happy.

 

[JaredJames]

I've honestly lost what you are trying to discuss here.

There is nothing to defend with science. Let them believe what they want to.

You are trying to fight indoctrination and this simply isn't possible. These people don't want to know. You can take Stephen Hawking into the ring with them and it wouldn't make a difference.

You've already said they don't accept gravity exists so why the hell would they care about anything else you can throw at them? Do you honestly believe you can throw a few good arguments and facts at them and they'll suddenly accept it?

 

[arildno]

Dialogue and argument is very nice stuff, but it is, essentially, of limited use.

To those willing to abide by its rules.

the others should be made to feel as stupid and ignorant as they actually are, and pseudo-dialogue is the least effective method of achieving that result.

 

[leroyjenkens]

People like that only disregard science until they need it cure their illnesses.

 

[AlexES16]

I've honestly lost what you are trying to discuss here.

There is nothing to defend with science. Let them believe what they want to.

You are trying to fight indoctrination and this simply isn't possible. These people don't want to know. You can take Stephen Hawking into the ring with them and it wouldn't make a difference.

You've already said they don't accept gravity exists so why the hell would they care about anything else you can throw at them? Do you honestly believe you can throw a few good arguments and facts at them and they'll suddenly accept it?

What i am trying to discuss is ideas that could help counter this people, not to change them, but to change/protect neutral people and reinforce science people.

 

[AlexES16]

Dialogue and argument is very nice stuff, but it is, essentially, of limited use.

To those willing to abide by its rules.

the others should be made to feel as stupid and ignorant as they actually are, and pseudo-dialogue is the least effective method of achieving that result.

There is a lot of people that are something like neutral, and fanatics try to convince that people. Example is also a great wepoan.

 

[AlexES16]

People like that only disregard science until they need it cure their illnesses.

Like this guy

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...penis-cancer-my-very-private-hell-790836.html

 

[AlexES16]

This page is good info:

http://biocab.org/Antiscience.html

 

[AlexES16]

They are on the move.

We have to fight and be ready so we don't end back in the middle ages.

And this is in a 1st world country! now imagine here in a 3rd wordl country like El Salvador!

 

[Shaun_W]

On the contray we should always give counter-arguments and be ready to fight or fight every day this kind of thinking, we have to fight every day, the only way to progress is to fight for more not less not the same, stagnation is defeat.

I think that if you have to do that then you're in the wrong country.

 

[Grep]

Always thought it's too bad we can't revoke such people's rights to products of science. Seems wrong to be against it and yet get it's benefits. You'd get a lot less anti-science people then, I would think. Probably not an option, though... lol

 

[JaredJames]

Let's revoke their right to gravity. See how willing they are to dismiss it then.

 

[Grep]

Let's revoke their right to gravity. See how willing they are to dismiss it then.

Nah, they'd just think it was the rapture.

 

[JaredJames]

Nah, they'd just think it was the rapture.

At least their final moments would be spent thinking they're going to heaven.

 

[AlexES16]

I think that if you have to do that then you're in the wrong country.

Thanks for the cheers...

 

[arunma]

Alex, don't you think you're overreacting by a few orders of magnitude? I'll certainly agree that the people who said these things are ignorant and probably foolish. But persecutors? "Persecution" is a strong word. It implies imprisonments, house arrests, and maybe even a bit of torture. A few people spouting their ignorance over lunch isn't persecution, and calling it such minimizes real persecution that scientists faced in earlier times. Heck, we're not even talking about your government cutting science funding. I think that if we point to mere fundamentalist rantings and call it so strong a word as persecution, it's going to make us sound like (forgive me) crybabies.

 

[NobodySpecial]

Let's revoke their right to gravity. See how willing they are to dismiss it then.

You mean intelligent-push.
The scientist's 'gravity' is just a theory

At least we don't have to worry about global warming
http://www.salon.com/technology/how_the_world_works/2010/11/09/john_shimkus_god_and_noah

 

[JaredJames]

You mean intelligent-push.
The scientist's 'gravity' is just a theory

Please confirm to me you know the difference between a theory and a hypothesis.

I ask because it appears you are using theory in the sense it is 'normally' used. People use it in general conversation to mean hypothesis.

Aside from that, the whole "'gravity' is just a theory" stuff is just nonsense.

 

[Vagn]

Please confirm to me you know the difference between a theory and a hypothesis.

I ask because it appears you are using theory in the sense it is 'normally' used. People use it in general conversation to mean hypothesis.

Aside from that, the whole "'gravity' is just a theory" stuff is just nonsense.

I'm fairly sure he does and is in fact simply mocking creationists, judging by his previous posts.

 

[arildno]

They are on the move.

We have to fight and be ready so we don't end back in the middle ages.

That is best achieved by making the idiots legally incapable of voting&achieving positions of power..

 

[JaredJames]

That is best achieved by making the idiots legally incapable of voting&achieving positions of power..

Looks like the current situation is a** backwards then!

 

[Shaun_W]

Thanks for the cheers...

My post may have sounded negative but if you have to battle against your computer repairman who thinks that the laws of physics are useless then there are better places for you to be in.

And your computer might not be fixed correctly either.

 

[AlexES16]

Alex, don't you think you're overreacting by a few orders of magnitude? I'll certainly agree that the people who said these things are ignorant and probably foolish. But persecutors? "Persecution" is a strong word. It implies imprisonments, house arrests, and maybe even a bit of torture. A few people spouting their ignorance over lunch isn't persecution, and calling it such minimizes real persecution that scientists faced in earlier times. Heck, we're not even talking about your government cutting science funding. I think that if we point to mere fundamentalist rantings and call it so strong a word as persecution, it's going to make us sound like (forgive me) crybabies.

Persecution was maybe not the proper word and yeah it sounds exagerated.

About my government cutting science funding... well there is practically no science funding.

 

[arunma]

Persecution was maybe not the proper word and yeah it sounds exagerated.

About my government cutting science funding... well there is practically no science funding.

Fair enough.

I admit I know next to nothing about El Salvador. But speaking from a US perspective, I think that a lot of people here overreact to the religious fundamentalists' threats to science. Oh yes, there are certain issues like stem cell research on which a policy-maker's religious views will affect science. But I noticed no negative effects from these guys on my astrophysics research. Actually we lost a bit of funding when Obama came into office.

One of the (indirectly) cool things about the religious fundamentalists is that they tend to be xenophobic, and I can see them funding American science so as to keep us ahead of the rest of the world. I guess they don't know that most of our grad students are from overseas. One will note that while President Obama has basically gutted the American space program, Bush actually wanted to get us back to the moon. I'm not saying that these fundamentalists are good for science, but they're not as bad as many make them out to be.

 

[Danger]

What we need is another good asteroid strike to wipe out the rest of those dinosaurs.

Alex, don't you think you're overreacting by a few orders of magnitude? I'll certainly agree that the people who said these things are ignorant and probably foolish. But persecutors? "Persecution" is a strong word. It implies imprisonments, house arrests, and maybe even a bit of torture.

I agree with Alex; I was beaten up on a regular basis in public school for being an Atheist, with the approval of the teaching staff. In fact, the one time that I fought back to defend myself I was punished for it. People like to call Alberta the bible-belt of Canada, but it's nothing compared to those raving Jesus freaks in southern Ontario.

 

[JaredJames]

I agree with Alex; I was beaten up on a regular basis in public school for being an Atheist, with the approval of the teaching staff. In fact, the one time that I fought back to defend myself I was punished for it. People like to call Alberta the bible-belt of Canada, but it's nothing compared to those raving Jesus freaks in southern Ontario.

So far, Alex appears to want a re-run of the crusades. But this time in favour of science.

Massive over reaction.

Just don't speak to these people (in his case).

In your case, well you clearly went to the wrong school. Did you not tell your parents? Did you not try to move schools?

Next to exporting all these people to a remote island or actually shooting them, they're always going to be around. They don't want to learn or have any interest in science, so it's futile trying to battle it with them.
They are defending their beliefs as we defend science, as irrational as they might be.

Just let them be.

 

[AlexES16]

What we need is another good asteroid strike to wipe out the rest of those dinosaurs.



I agree with Alex; I was beaten up on a regular basis in public school for being an Atheist, with the approval of the teaching staff. In fact, the one time that I fought back to defend myself I was punished for it. People like to call Alberta the bible-belt of Canada, but it's nothing compared to those raving Jesus freaks in southern Ontario.

I went to catholic church but they were very open to it and the other thing is that i never backed down, i spent like 1 year having discussins with my family, and in my school i was ready to fight verbaly or physicaly with people that like to discriminate or irespect freedom.
So i think being ready to fight to dead for your freedom is very important.

Also its looks like catholics are more open than other religious groups, i even have an uncle that is priest and he knows that i am an atheist and he respects it.

Looks this cahtolic priest

Minute 5.45 =)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQa6-E8axcE&feature=related

 

[AlexES16]

Fair enough.

I admit I know next to nothing about El Salvador. But speaking from a US perspective, I think that a lot of people here overreact to the religious fundamentalists' threats to science. Oh yes, there are certain issues like stem cell research on which a policy-maker's religious views will affect science. But I noticed no negative effects from these guys on my astrophysics research. Actually we lost a bit of funding when Obama came into office.

One of the (indirectly) cool things about the religious fundamentalists is that they tend to be xenophobic, and I can see them funding American science so as to keep us ahead of the rest of the world. I guess they don't know that most of our grad students are from overseas. One will note that while President Obama has basically gutted the American space program, Bush actually wanted to get us back to the moon. I'm not saying that these fundamentalists are good for science, but they're not as bad as many make them out to be.

Power

 

[AlexES16]

So far, Alex appears to want a re-run of the crusades. But this time in favour of science.

Massive over reaction.

Just don't speak to these people (in his case).

In your case, well you clearly went to the wrong school. Did you not tell your parents? Did you not try to move schools?

Next to exporting all these people to a remote island or actually shooting them, they're always going to be around. They don't want to learn or have any interest in science, so it's futile trying to battle it with them.
They are defending their beliefs as we defend science, as irrational as they might be.

Just let them be.

There is no anti-gay movement or anti-atheist movement or anti-religion movement
there is only anti-freedom movement

words from the AmaizingAtheist of youtube

 

[AlexES16]

My post may have sounded negative but if you have to battle against your computer repairman who thinks that the laws of physics are useless then there are better places for you to be in.

And your computer might not be fixed correctly either.

Nah no problem dude

 

[JaredJames]

words from the AmaizingAtheist of youtube

Firstly, there is a difference between being accepting and being open to discussion on topics of religion and science.

I am an accepting person when it comes to religion. My feelings are simple, believe what you like, it's up to you. Just don't try and force it on me. You give me that courtesy and I will do the same for you.

Despite that, I won't stand for discussion that compares religious texts to scientific texts and put them on equal grounds.

Sounds like you are an atheist fundamentalist. No better than a religious fundamentalist in my opinion.

 

[AlexES16]

What we need is another good asteroid strike to wipe out the rest of those dinosaurs.



In fact, the one time that I fought back to defend myself I was punished for it.

​

Sorry for you comrade atheist

The people in power say not to retaliate becouse they want power for themselfs.

Justice beats Pacifism

 

[AlexES16]

Firstly, there is a difference between being accepting and being open to discussion on topics of religion and science.

I am an accepting person when it comes to religion. Believe what you like, it's up to you. But I won't stand for discussion that compares religious texts be compared to scientific texts and put them on equal grounds.

Sounds like you are an atheist fundamentalist. No better than a religious fundamentalist in my opinion.

Wow! i don't want to destroy religion, it think that would be an athiest fundamentalist. Sense when defending freedom makes you a fundamentalist?

 

[JaredJames]

We're defending freedom now are we?

Bit of a jump from defending atheism.

From what I've read here, people aren't trying to stop you reading science, they just don't want to hear it themselves.

 

[AlexES16]

We're defending freedom now are we?

Bit of a jump from defending atheism.

From what I've read here, people aren't trying to stop you reading science, they just don't want to hear it themselves.

When Rosa Parks was defying racism she also was defying anti-freedom.

If people want to destroy religion, atheism, science or what ever, in the the end they want to destroy freedom and impose themselves, that's my point.

 

[Averagesupernova]

As for the computer repair goes, the bashers of science will just repair computers by doing what they are told. They will probably go down a check list and if it isn't on the list then the computer will be considered junk. They don't likely have a mind that is capable of reasoning out what is wrong with a computer, or anything for that matter. I have some relatives who are super religous and they couldn't fix a bent paper clip. That is why they are religous. They are incapable of figuring out anything on their own so they need to be told how to live, what to believe, etc.

 

[JaredJames]

As for the computer repair goes, the bashers of science will just repair computers by doing what they are told. They will probably go down a check list and if it isn't on the list then the computer will be considered junk. They don't likely have a mind that is capable of reasoning out what is wrong with a computer, or anything for that matter. I have some relatives who are super religous and they couldn't fix a bent paper clip. That is why they are religous. They are incapable of figuring out anything on their own so they need to be told how to live, what to believe, etc.

There are a lot of religious scientists out there. There are very intelligent religious people in all kinds of fields.

You can't claim people are religious because they "are incapable of figuring out anything on their own so they need to be told how to live, what to believe, etc."

Some people don't get the chance to learn. They are indoctrinated throughout their lives.

EDIT: May have mistook your meaning, but I still don't see the connection. There are plenty of non-religious people out there just as incapable.

 

[AlexES16]

Open catholic example

Minute 5.45 =)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQa6-...eature=related

 

[JaredJames]

Link doesn't work.

Regardless, what are you trying to prove?

 

[Averagesupernova]

There are a lot of religious scientists out there. There are very intelligent religious people in all kinds of fields.

You can't claim people are religious because they "are incapable of figuring out anything on their own so they need to be told how to live, what to believe, etc."

Some people don't get the chance to learn. They are indoctrinated throughout their lives.

EDIT: May have mistook your meaning, but I still don't see the connection. There are plenty of non-religious people out there just as incapable.

I will admit that there are certainly non-religious people out there that are incapable. But I have found that the majority of the time people who are very religious are not very capable of figuring things out. Of course there are exceptions.