Second Isomorphism Theorem for Rings .... Bland Theorem 3.3.15 .... ....

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the Second Isomorphism Theorem for rings as presented in Paul E. Bland's "The Basics of Abstract Algebra." Participants seek clarification on the proof of the theorem, particularly regarding the kernel of a ring homomorphism and the identities in quotient rings.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Peter requests help with Bland's proof, specifically on how to show that the kernel of the homomorphism is $$I_1/I_2$$.
  • Some participants assert that the kernel consists of cosets $$x + I_2$$ where $$x \in I_1$$, suggesting this leads to the conclusion that the kernel is indeed $$I_1/I_2$$.
  • Peter questions the statement that the identity of $$R/I_1$$ is $$I_1$$, proposing instead that it should be the coset $$1_R + I_1$$.
  • Another participant clarifies that the identity of the additive group is $$0$$, and thus the identity of $$R/I$$ is the coset containing $$0$$, which is $$I$$.
  • Concerns are raised about the multiplicative identity in the context of the ring structure of $$R/I$$, with Peter expressing confusion over the definitions of cosets and identities.
  • It is noted that while $$R/I$$ is a ring under addition and multiplication of cosets, the definition of cosets primarily involves addition.
  • Participants discuss the implications of ideals and normal subgroups in the context of the additive group and the well-definedness of the ring homomorphism.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

There is no consensus on the identity of the quotient ring $$R/I_1$$, with differing views on whether it is $$I_1$$ or the coset $$1_R + I_1$$. Participants generally agree on the definitions of kernels and identities in additive groups but express uncertainty regarding their application in the context of ring homomorphisms.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights potential ambiguities in the definitions of identities in quotient rings and the relationship between additive and multiplicative structures. There are unresolved questions regarding the implications of these definitions on the proof of the Second Isomorphism Theorem.

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I am reading "The Basics of Abstract Algebra" by Paul E. Bland ... ...

I am currently focused on Chapter 3: Sets with Two Binary Operations: Rings ... ...

I need help with Bland's proof of the Second Isomorphism Theorem for rings ...

Bland's Second Isomorphism Theorem for rings and its proof read as follows:
View attachment 7969
https://www.physicsforums.com/attachments/7970
In the above proof by Bland we read the following:

" ... ... This map is easily shown to be a well defined ring homomorphism with kernel $$I_1/I_2$$. ... ... "I can see that $$f$$ is a ring homomorphism ... but how do we prove that the kernel is $$I_1/I_2$$ ... ... ?Hope someone can help ...

Peter
 
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Hi Peter,

The identity of $R/I_1$ is $I_1$. $\ker f$ contains the cosets $x+I_2$ such that $x+I_1 = I_1$, which means that $x\in I_1$.

This shows that $\ker f$ is the set of cosets $\{(x+I_2)\mid x\in I_1\}$, which is $I_1/I_2$.
 
castor28 said:
Hi Peter,

The identity of $R/I_1$ is $I_1$. $\ker f$ contains the cosets $x+I_2$ such that $x+I_1 = I_1$, which means that $x\in I_1$.

This shows that $\ker f$ is the set of cosets $\{(x+I_2)\mid x\in I_1\}$, which is $I_1/I_2$.
Thanks for the help, castor28 ...

But just a point of clarification ...

You write: " ... ... The identity of $R/I_1$ is $I_1$ ... ... "Surely the identity of $$R/I_1$$ is the coset $$1_R + I_1$$ because $$(a + I_1) ( 1_R + I_1 ) = a 1_R + I_1 = a + I_1$$ ... and similarly $$( 1_R + I_1 ) ( a + I_1) = a + I_1$$ ...

Can you please clarify ...

Peter
 
Peter said:
Thanks for the help, castor28 ...

But just a point of clarification ...

You write: " ... ... The identity of $R/I_1$ is $I_1$ ... ... "Surely the identity of $$R/I_1$$ is the coset $$1_R + I_1$$ because $$(a + I_1) ( 1_R + I_1 ) = a 1_R + I_1 = a + I_1$$ ... and similarly $$( 1_R + I_1 ) ( a + I_1) = a + I_1$$ ...

Can you please clarify ...

Peter
Hi Peter,

Quotient rings are defined in terms of the additive group; that is why cosets of an ideal $I$ are written as $x+I$. The identity of the additive group is $0$, and the identity of $R/I$ is the coset containing $0$, which is obviously $I$. The kernel is defined as the inverse image of the identity of the additive group.

The coset $1+I$ is the multiplicative identity of the quotient ring $R/I$.
 
castor28 said:
Hi Peter,

Quotient rings are defined in terms of the additive group; that is why cosets of an ideal $I$ are written as $x+I$. The identity of the additive group is $0$, and the identity of $R/I$ is the coset containing $0$, which is obviously $I$. The kernel is defined as the inverse image of the identity of the additive group.

The coset $1+I$ is the multiplicative identity of the quotient ring $R/I$.

Thanks castor28 ...

Hmm ... beginning to understand what you are saying ...

Still concerned and a bit confused ...

Surely $$R/I$$ is a ring under the addition and multiplication of cosets ...
and hence has a (multiplicative) identity as I described ..

But the definition of cosets of course involves only addition ...

Is that correct?

Peter
 
Peter said:
Thanks castor28 ...

Hmm ... beginning to understand what you are saying ...

Still concerned and a bit confused ...

Surely $$R/I$$ is a ring under the addition and multiplication of cosets ...
and hence has a (multiplicative) identity as I described ..

But the definition of cosets of course involves only addition ...

Is that correct?

Peter
Hi Peter,

Yes, that is correct.

If $I$ is a subgroup (necessarily normal) of the additive group of $R$, the quotient group $R/I$ is an additive group, and there is a canonical group homomorphism $f:R\to R/I$ that sends $x\in R$ to the coset $x+I$. The additive identity of $R/I$ is the coset $0+I=I$. $\ker f$ is the inverse image of that coset.

If we add the stronger condition that $I$ is an ideal of $R$, then it can be shown that multiplication of cosets is well-defined, and $f$ is also a ring homomorphism.

Note, however, that $R$ is not a group under multiplication (unless it is trivial); therefore, the (group-related) concept of kernel cannot be based on the multiplicative structure.
 
The well-definedness of the ring-homomorphism is explained to you in this thread:
https://mathhelpboards.com/linear-abstract-algebra-14/quotient-rings-remarks-adkins-weintraub-23836.html?highlight=adkins
 

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