Setting up Differential Equations of Motion

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around setting up differential equations of motion in the context of Lagrangian Dynamics, specifically for a pendulum and spring system. Participants express challenges in transitioning from Newtonian mechanics to Lagrangian methods, seeking resources and methodologies for deriving these equations.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses difficulty in setting up differential equations of motion and seeks books focused on this process.
  • Another participant provides a derivation of the equations of motion using Lagrangian mechanics, emphasizing the importance of choosing generalized coordinates.
  • A participant questions whether the same equations can be derived using Newtonian methods, expressing a desire to understand both approaches.
  • Further clarification is provided regarding the relationship between the derived Lagrangian equations and Newton's second law, particularly in polar coordinates.
  • One participant acknowledges the role of centrifugal force in the derivation of the equations, indicating a realization of its importance in the context of the pendulum's motion.
  • Another participant attempts to derive the second equation of motion using Lagrangian methods but struggles with the partial derivatives, leading to confusion about the correct form of the equation.
  • Questions arise regarding the interpretation of terms in the second equation from a Newtonian perspective, particularly concerning torque and angular momentum.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the importance of understanding both Lagrangian and Newtonian approaches, but there remains uncertainty and disagreement on the derivation of the second equation of motion and the interpretation of its terms.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the transition from Newtonian to Lagrangian methods is not straightforward, and there are unresolved issues regarding the mathematical steps involved in deriving the equations of motion.

  • #31
No ti is not totally bull, it is very standard trick you can se in lot of books. In Lagrangian formalism you don't take Lagrangian as a function of only t (at the bottom, everything in physics is function of time only, but in most cases, that is not the most productive way to look at things), but you take it as L(\dot{q_i}, q_i, t) where \dot{q_i}, and q_i are general speeds, and coordinates. Examine this step \frac{d\dot{\theta}}{d\theta}\frac{d\theta}{dt}=\frac{d\dot{\theta}}{d\theta}\dot{\theta}. In it you just replace \frac{d\theta}{dt} with \dot{\theta} because \dot{\theta} is in Lagrangian formalism coordinate the same way \theta is coordinate.
 
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  • #32
NeutronStar said:
Also can you explain what each of these terms represents from a Netwonian point of view?

r\ddot{\theta}+2\dot{r}\dot{\theta}+g\sin\theta=0

I know that the last one comes from the gravitational force. But what are the other two terms? I'm thinking that they might be related to torque, or angular momentum but I can't quite figure out what's going on here.

I'd really like to fully understand the mathematical description of this system perfectly before I move on to to the next system in the book which is far more complex.

The first term is the centrifugal force, and the second one is Coriolis force. Feynman's lectures Vol 1. pages 19-8, 19-9 have an excellent (non-mathematical) explanation for Coriolis force.

"This other force is called Coriolis force, and it has a strange property that when we move something in a rotating system, it seems to be pushed sidewise. Like the centrifugal force, it is an apparent force. But if we live in a system that is rotating, and move something radially, we find that we must also push it sidewise to move it radially. This sidewise push which we have to exert is what turned our body around"
 

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