News Should Churches Be Taxed? The Debate on Tax Exemptions and Reinvestment

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The discussion centers on whether churches and non-profit organizations should be subject to taxation, with a strong argument made for taxing churches to reinvest in public goods like healthcare and education. Critics argue that many church revenues are not directed towards charitable causes, and some suggest that an expert council could determine the social usefulness of church activities. There is concern about the lack of accountability for churches compared to other non-profits, as they are exempt from certain filing requirements. The debate also touches on the implications of taxing religious organizations on freedom of expression and the potential for government favoritism in charity designations. Ultimately, the conversation reflects a complex balance between taxation, charitable work, and religious freedom.
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In my opinion, the church shouldn't be subject to any tax exemptions at all. It should be taxed, and the taxes should be reinvested on noble causes, such as health care, education, scientific and technological development, resource and environmental protection, housing security and food security, etc.
 
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Cinitiator said:
In my opinion, the church shouldn't be subject to any tax exemptions at all. It should be taxed, and the taxes should be reinvested on noble causes, such as health care, education, scientific and technological development, resource and environmental protection, housing security and food security, etc.
Should all non-profit and/or charitable organizations be taxed?

Churches have traditional provided social services. Their funding comes from the membership, although some churches do own commercial property that generates revenue.
 
Astronuc said:
Should all non-profit and/or charitable organizations be taxed?

Churches have traditional provided social services. Their funding comes from the membership, although some churches do own commercial property that generates revenue.

"Should all non-profit and/or charitable organizations be taxed?"

Depends on their utility/revenue values, although there should be a maximum tax rate beyond which non-profit organizations can't be taxed (ex: 30%). Only a part of the churches' revenues goes to charitable causes. The rest goes on socially useless causes, such as religious missionary programs, religious activism, church property accumulation, etc.

The degree of social usefulness can be determined by having an expert council vote on it.
 
Astronuc said:
Should all non-profit and/or charitable organizations be taxed?
Non-profit yes (to some extent) and I agree that religious institutions should not be taxed on their charitable programs but I don't see why tax exemption should apply across the board when ultimately they are not charities and qualifying for religious tax exemption is largely arbitrary e.g. Scientology not being classed as a tax exempt religion in many countries.
 
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Cinitiator said:
The degree of social usefulness can be determined by having an expert council vote on it.

Why an expert council? When it comes to charity why not just let people vote with their wallets? I certainly would much rather give to specific charities than let the government be the sole decider on what is a socially worthy cause.
 
DavidSnider said:
Why an expert council? When it comes to charity why not just let people vote with their wallets? I certainly would much rather give to specific charities than let the government be the sole decider on what is a socially worthy cause.
How do you vote with your wallet for what is a charity? Charitable status in [strike]the UK[/strike] England and Wales at least is awarded by the charity commission which is an arm of the government. Therefore the government is responsible for deciding on what constitutes a charity but ultimately they are accountable to the people.

That's not to say I agree with Cinitiator that there should be an expert council that has to vote on each charity but that there has to be an agreed upon set of requirements for an organisation to register as a charity with a good amount of accountability all the way through.
 
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Astronuc said:
Should all non-profit and/or charitable organizations be taxed?

Churches have traditional provided social services. Their funding comes from the membership, although some churches do own commercial property that generates revenue.
The Roman Catholic Church owns about 1/2 of the property in the largest city in this area. They generate lots of income, but pay no taxes, so the burden of providing security, fire protection and other services falls on others. Not fair, and the situation (IMO) is hampering economic growth, since some pretty profitable business have been established and expanded over the years to surrounding towns with fairer tax burdens.

I am a spiritual person but non-denominational. I was raised in the Catholic church, until I was old enough to rebel and kick the traces. Even back 50 years ago, it was quite obvious that the church was a highly profitable global business. I'd like to see all organizations pay taxes on their profits. If they do charitable work, we can exempt those expenditures from taxation.

Incorporating as a "church" should not absolve one from taxation - just look at the explosion of mega-churches in the last couple of decades. Lots of money coming in tax-free, to the detriment of all taxpayers.
 
Basic oversight doesn't seem to be the intent of the OP. He's saying he finds things like 'missionary programs' as socially useless and that the funds should be siphoned off to the government for things he does find valuable.
 
DavidSnider said:
Basic oversight doesn't seem to be the intent of the OP. He's saying he finds things like 'missionary programs' as socially useless and that the funds should be siphoned off to the government for things he does find valuable.
The ministry of service that missionaries partake in is often charitable and so should be tax exempt however they also come with an evangelical side which should not be. How one could work out what goes on what and what's fair I'm not sure but I don't think that efforts to gain converts for a religion should count as a service to society or charitable action in a secular nation.
 
  • #10
When I was a little kid (maybe 10), my great-aunt told me some pretty heady stuff about the RCC. I had mentioned that our church had hosted some African missionaries and collected money for that cause. Aunt Dora said that the church sent the missionaries begging to us because we Mainers were only marginally better-off than Africans. She saw my incomprehension, and explained that when the church wanted money from the Hartford area, they sent in speakers that claimed that churches in Maine needed furnace repairs and new roofs. A very sharp old lady.
 
  • #11
Maybe things are different in the UK, but in the US 'spreading the gospel' is seen as a worthy social cause in itself. That's why I'd rather not have politicians playing favorites with charities.
 
  • #12
DavidSnider said:
Maybe things are different in the UK, but in the US 'spreading the gospel' is seen as a worthy social cause in itself. That's why I'd rather not have politicians playing favorites with charities.

Should spreading astrology, 2012 millenarianism, Nibiru cataclysm, and other irrational and harmful beliefs be considered as worthy as well? Spreading anything which asses itself to be a fact without being a tautology or an empirical theory etc. is harmful, and shouldn't be considered worthy.
 
  • #13
What makes you think the government is any better at weeding out harmful and irrational beliefs than a church?

The US government buys dowsing rods to detect bombs. Seriously.
 
  • #14
There is a case for taxing the profit that churches make on business ventures. However, the money that is given voluntarily to churches is not taxed because of the first amendment. I think this is better left as it is.
 
  • #15
DavidSnider said:
Maybe things are different in the UK, but in the US 'spreading the gospel' is seen as a worthy social cause in itself. That's why I'd rather not have politicians playing favorites with charities.
Seen as a worthy social cause by whom; the people, the government or both? How would you award tax exempt status without governments being involved?
 
  • #16
Cinitiator said:
In my opinion, the church shouldn't be subject to any tax exemptions at all. It should be taxed, and the taxes should be reinvested on noble causes, such as health care, education, scientific and technological development, resource and environmental protection, housing security and food security, etc.

No, but I also don't think tithing should be tax deductible. The government should pretend as though religion does not exist.
 
  • #17
Ryan_m_b said:
Seen as a worthy social cause by whom; the people, the government or both? How would you award tax exempt status without governments being involved?

Both the people and the government. (The government being made up by the people...)

Again, I'm not talking about simply granting tax exempt status.

The government has more than enough channels to raise revenues already. Why complicate charities which are one of the most effective forms of direct democracy?
 
  • #18
No, I do not think churches should be taxed.
 
  • #19
My problem is that churches don't have to abide by the same filing requirements that other charities do.

From http://www.irs.gov/Charities-&-Non-Profits/Churches-&-Religious-Organizations/Filing-Requirements
Filing Requirements (bolding mine)
Generally, tax-exempt organizations must file an annual information return ( Form 990 or Form 990-EZ). Tax-exempt organizations that have annual gross receipts not normally in excess of $25,000 ($50,000 for tax years ending on or after December 31, 2010) are not required to file the annual information return; they may be required to file an annual electronic notice, however. In addition, churches and certain church-affiliated organizations are excepted from filing.
So, where other non-profit organizations have to file taxes to prove they meet the requirements of being a non-profit, churches are exempt. Additionally, church ministers don't have to pay taxes on their incomes unlike any other non-profit organization.

To me, this shows undue favoritism to religious organizations over non-religious organizations.

Treat churches just like any other non-profit organization.
 
  • #20
DavidSnider said:
Both the people and the government. (The government being made up by the people...)

Again, I'm not talking about simply granting tax exempt status.

The government has more than enough channels to raise revenues already. Why complicate charities which are one of the most effective forms of direct democracy?
I don't see that this has much to do with direct democracy since it's not a community voting on where community funds go but an individual deciding where an individual's funds can go within boundaries set by the community.

Personally I don't think that evangelism is deserved of tax exempt status, any charitable work a church does then fine make it tax deductible but not across the board exempt just because your organisation partakes in some charitable activity.
 
  • #21
Some information on the governance of this in England and Wales for those interested:

This link outlines what tax exemption charities recieve.
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/charities/guidance-notes/annex1/annex_i.htm

This link contains information on what aims an organisation must meet in order to be legally allowed to register as a charity.
http://www.charity-commission.gov.u...tials/Public_benefit/charitable_purposes.aspx

This link explains under what circumstances the advancement of religion can and cannot be considered a public benefit
http://www.charity-commission.gov.uk/Library/guidance/pbreligiontext.pdf

IMO the system now could be better as I don't believe that advancing a religion should count as a charitable aim at all however I acknowledge it's problematic because for an organisation to be counted as a charity it cannot have any aims that are not included in the list from the second link above. Perhaps an answer could be for religious organisations to set up, fund and run secular charities but that's a tenuous separation with room for abuse.
 
  • #22
Jimmy Snyder said:
However, the money that is given voluntarily to churches is not taxed because of the first amendment. I think this is better left as it is.

This is a good point. Taxing churches effectively gives government control over religious expression.
 
  • #23
DavidSnider said:
This is a good point. Taxing churches effectively gives government control over religious expression.
How exactly? IIRC under a certain amount transfer of money between private individuals for no return of goods or services constitutes a gift and is not taxable. It's not like you couldn't give money tax free to a religious institution if they were taxed.
 
  • #24
DavidSnider said:
This is a good point. Taxing churches effectively gives government control over religious expression.
IMO, taxing churches puts the churches on the same footing as other profitable enterprises. Nothing wrong with that. If all religious organizations were taxed at the same rates as other corporations, it would give government no influence over religious expression.
 
  • #25
Ryan_m_b said:
How exactly? IIRC under a certain amount transfer of money between private individuals for no return of goods or services constitutes a gift and is not taxable. It's not like you couldn't give money tax free to a religious institution if they were taxed.

Yes, but by having the government set the tax rate for a particular religious institution it would lead to a situation where the government is favoring one religion over another.
 
  • #26
DavidSnider said:
Maybe things are different in the UK, but in the US 'spreading the gospel' is seen as a worthy social cause in itself.

In the UK, it might be seen as as worthy sociial cause by the tiny minority who do it, but not by anybody else IMO.

I get a few visits from JWs, but I've never tried asking them if they see themselves as a worthy social cause. Nobody else has even bothered to try to spread the gospel in my direction in the last 40 or 50 years.
 
  • #27
DavidSnider said:
Yes, but by having the government set the tax rate for a particular religious institution it would lead to a situation where the government is favoring one religion over another.
Why would they set a different rate for different religious organisations?
 
  • #28
Ryan_m_b said:
Why would they set a different rate for different religious organisations?

Why wouldn't they? They do with everything else.

Is it really hard to imagine that once you start going down that route that they'll start having "small minority owned religion" tax credits or whatever?
 
  • #29
DavidSnider said:
Why wouldn't they? They do with everything else.

Is it really hard to imagine that once you start going down that route that they'll start having "small minority owned religion" tax credits or whatever?
That's not really favouring one religion over another though is it? It's setting up a system of taxation in which different sized organisations are taxed different amounts for different reasons and all religions are subject to that system. I don't see that as favouring in the manner in which we're discussing.

The implication here is that politicians might be able to choose a religion and give it special treatment (which they already do to some extent by being responsible for determining what constitutes a religion and what does not) which would apparently violate first amendment rights but that's not the same as a system in which taxation is applied differently to organisations of different sizes and characteristics.
 
  • #30
The government adjusts tax policies all the time to encourage or discourage growth of certain industries. Why wouldn't they do the same thing to religions if they had the same sort of power over them?
 
  • #31
DavidSnider said:
The government adjusts tax policies all the time to encourage or discourage growth of certain industries. Why wouldn't they do the same thing to religions if they had the same sort of power over them?
Because it would be illegal like you say or at least could be made so. Regulation of the economy is a very different thing and is a mandate of government.
 
  • #32
Ryan_m_b said:
Regulation of the economy is a very different thing and is a mandate of government.

It's not a very different thing once you start treating religions as corporations.
 
  • #33
DavidSnider said:
It's not a very different thing once you start treating religions as corporations.
They don't have to be treated like corporations unless they incorporate themselves. They're non-profit organisations.
 
  • #34
Aren't you guys missing a fundamental problem here: That a non-profit would be non-taxable because by definition there is no profit to tax?
 
  • #35
russ_watters said:
Aren't you guys missing a fundamental problem here: That a non-profit would be non-taxable because by definition there is no profit to tax?
As I understand it in the UK there is a difference in the tax-exemption between charities and non-profits. For example Value Added Tax is exempt on all charitable purchases which a non-profit may benefit from but not necessarily.
 
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  • #36
russ_watters said:
Aren't you guys missing a fundamental problem here: That a non-profit would be non-taxable because by definition there is no profit to tax?

And how are we supposed to know that there's no profit to tax unless they have to file paperwork? Right now, they are exempt from even filing. I think that's the big issue not being addressed in this thread.

What you say is correct. If there is no profit to be taxed, then there is nothing to tax when somebody says "churches should be taxed." However, as I stated in my previous post, they're not even required to file. A church could be making a TREMENDOUS profit but they don't even have to file.
 
  • #37
Cinitiator said:
In my opinion, the church shouldn't be subject to any tax exemptions at all. It should be taxed, and the taxes should be reinvested on noble causes, such as health care, education, scientific and technological development, resource and environmental protection, housing security and food security, etc.
Churches are now getting federal and state money through the so called "Faith Based Initiatives." (On a side note, this is one of my great criticisms against Obama) And as others have pointed out, there exists zero accountability. Here is a very rare view inside Catholic books:

http://www.economist.com/node/21560536

In effect, we might as well say that we have a religious tax in America. Where the government transfers the collected tax money to religions of its choice.

In addition, we are also giving them tax exemption. So they don't contribute anything to our society, they are taking from society, and in many cases, they try to influence our political system.IMO, religious people are being very successful in tearing down the wall between church and state.
 
  • #38
Yet both presidential candidates openly say "God bless America". Seriously, why would you want to tax an organization whole sole purpose is to unite and help people and spread the word?

While acknowledging that the church itself might have hoarded lost of money, the priests and nuns hardly live a lavish life. A lot of money is redistributed back in the society. Also, when I donate money to a local charity, I do not wish to have the money be taxed so further cover expenditures of our ever war-mongering government.
 
  • #39
SunnyBoyNY said:
Yet both presidential candidates openly say "God bless America". Seriously, why would you want to tax an organization whole sole purpose is to unite and help people and spread the word?
You do realize that not everyone agrees with religious beliefs and does not want to see more people converted into them? In addition many people (including those who share your religious beliefs) would rather live in a secular society where religion and government was firmly separate.
SunnyBoyNY said:
While acknowledging that the church itself might have hoarded lost of money, the priests and nuns hardly live a lavish life. A lot of money is redistributed back in the society. Also, when I donate money to a local charity, I do not wish to have the money be taxed so further cover expenditures of our ever war-mongering government.
Whether or not the priests or nuns live lavish lives is immaterial, that's like any other organisation be it for or not for profit arguing it shouldn't pay tax on all it's money because it doesn't give much to it's workers. You'be also touched on the running point of this thread in that many people do not think that religions should be counted as charities as the aim of spreading one's religion is not in of itself a charitable one and charities by definition can have no non-charitable aims.
 
  • #41
It turns out that the IRS isn't even enforcing rules that tax-exempt churches not get involved in politics:

http://wtop.com/628/3105426/IRS-not-enforcing-rules-on-churches-and-politics
For the past three years, the Internal Revenue Service hasn't been investigating complaints of partisan political activity by churches, leaving religious groups who make direct or thinly veiled endorsements of political candidates unchallenged.

Some pastors even directly challenged the IRS to taking them to court, by breaking the law and sending them proof that they did it, but the IRS didn't respond:
Last month, more than 1,500 pastors, organized by the Alliance Defending Freedom, endorsed a candidate from the pulpit and then sent a record of their statement to the IRS, hoping their challenge would eventually end up in court. The Alliance has organized the event, called "Pulpit Freedom Sunday," since 2008. The IRS has never contacted a pastor involved in the protest.
 
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  • #42
I attended churches for about 40 or more years. In my experience they were not primarily charitable. They were like tax free social clubs and business groups, where one went to find business opportunities. In my last church we had an extremely minimal charity budget if any, and there was a stink when the latest minister wanted to increase it.

Rather it seems to be argued that simply having people sit in pews and be preached at is worthy of a tax break.

Our church also flirted with a philosophy of racial segregation. We had a speaker come in and explain to us how to increase our membership, one method being to become more uniracial in our composition, because as he put it, most people are uncomfortable worshipping in a diverse setting. This hostility to diversity extended to overt attempts to strong arm members to oppose equal rights for non heterosexuals. One Sunday we were asked to physically stand up in church if we opposed such equality. I was quite uncomfortable and conspicuous sitting as almost the entire congregation stood.

In my opinion, there is very minimal if any charitable benefit to exempting churches from real estate taxes on the enormous buildings and land they occupy in my town, although there is one huge local church that does make its buildings available for an annual book festival, most of the others use them exclusively for the benefit of members events.

Even in the case of members there are often minimal services. E.g. when my mother who lived 300 miles away from me, and was a member of the same church for over 50 years, became unable to drive in her 90's, the church had no program and was uninterested in providing any for assisting its elderly members in everyday activities like shopping.

I have similar reservations about so called non profit institutions. In Boston and Cambridge Mass, e.g., Harvard University owns vast real estate holdings and is one of the wealthiest entities in Boston, but all that real estate they and other universities hold, is a dead loss to the city tax base.

The Mormon church and the Catholic church are also extremely wealthy, and when I lived in Salt Lake it was said the Mormons controlled United airlines. It just seems to me to be another example of tax breaks for the wealthy, with a few trickle down charitable benefits.

There is also the political side. In my state there are some churches where the pastors are explicitly exhorting their congregations to vote for one specific candidate for president, although that is prohibited by the law under which they are tax exempt, as Jack21222 said.

the definition of what constitutes a "profit" is also quite arguable. An entity that has so much excess money it can buy businesses and expensive real estate and pay high salaries, arguably is showing a huge profit. recall that even hollywood movies with enormous grosses are often technically said not to show any "profit" after everyone concerned has received a large payout from the proceeds. it is quite correct that not showing a profit goes hand in hand with not paying tax, but doing that is often a matter of accounting for the great sums of money generated in other ways than calling them "profit".

the tax exemption for churches can also be transferred into a tax deferment for individuals. Governor Romney has a trust set up that ostensibly is to provide a gift to the Mormon church on his death, but in the meantime has the ability to increase on investment income tax free, while it pays him and his wife a steady income, with taxes accruing only on that portion which they withdraw. The principal in the trust is well below what current law would require, and the future trend is such that in fact "next to nothing" will actually be left for the charitable donation according to one expert, after the Romneys have received and spent their withdrawals. Thus in this case, and it is common among high income individuals, the tax exemption of the church functions primarily as a tax deferment scheme for wealthy church members.
 
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  • #43
Jack21222 said:
It turns out that the IRS isn't even enforcing rules that tax-exempt churches not get involved in politics:

http://wtop.com/628/3105426/IRS-not-enforcing-rules-on-churches-and-politics


Some pastors even directly challenged the IRS to taking them to court, by breaking the law and sending them proof that they did it, but the IRS didn't respond:

Why would the IRS respond? In spite of the extra publicity created by giving it a special name on a special day, it's not incredibly rare. In one sense, it would be advantageous to evangelicals to have the issue get a little more visibility.

Pew Research Survey

Code:
Has the clergy of at your place of worship spoken out about...

                    Importance of voting       About the Presidential candidates

Protestant              54%                                       19%
White Evagelical        52                                        12
White Mainline          32                                         5
Black Protestant        79                                        40

Catholic                48                                           19
White Catholic          46                                           17

Is what you're hearing more supportive of Obama, Romney, or neither?

                       Obama                    Romney             Neither

Protestant               16%                   15%                    69%
White Evagelical          5                    26                     69
White Mainline            7                    13                     81
Black Protestant         45                     0                     55

Catholic                  9                    15                     75
White Catholic            4                    21                     75
 
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  • #44
BobG said:
Why would the IRS respond?

Because it's their job to enforce the rules.
 
  • #45
Jack21222 said:
Because it's their job to enforce the rules.

They did enforce the rules once - in 1995. You still aren't satisfied? :rolleyes:

Church at Pierce Creek

Of course, they placed a full page ad in the Washington Times and in USA Today. Interestingly, the church cited the numerous times other pastors/preachers/etc talked about political candidates from the pulpit and the numerous times politicians talked to congregations from the pulpit (Reverend Jesse Jackson, Senators Al Gore, Charles Robb, Frank Lautenberg and Tom Harkin, Senate candidates Oliver North and Harvey Gantt, Governors Bill Clinton, Mario Cuomo and Douglas Wilder, gubernatorial candidates James Gilmore, III and Don Beyers, Jr., Mayors Marion Barry, Kurt Schmoke and Rudolph Giuliani, and numerous others). That defense didn't help them.

The IRS just doesn't care what's said inside of churches. They only care what churches say outside of church. And... there's a certain logic to that.
 
  • #46
Jimmy Snyder said:
There is a case for taxing the profit that churches make on business ventures. However, the money that is given voluntarily to churches is not taxed because of the first amendment. I think this is better left as it is.

Members of the Unification Church donate all of their income to their church. Their church's leader, the Reverend Sun Myung Moon, owned a fishery and paid his workers well. But he only hired members of the Unification Church, who donated all of their money to the Unification Church, who supported the Reverend Sun Myung Moon to a lavish lifestyle.

He actually did wind up getting in trouble with the IRS. Cute scam, but a little too over the top to actually get away with.
 
  • #47
Haven't read most of the thread. But I think we should tax churches AND allow them to preach politics as much as they want (provided that they are taxed).

The "charity" status of churches was mentioned, which is a point on which I have many doubts. Missionaries are not charity work; they are religious promulgation. I think a church should be welcome to open a genuine charity company separate from the church (i.e., create a separate account). Consequently, such a company should provide real charity, without proselytization.
 
  • #48
I don't think it is reasonable to dis-allow a charity from doing marketing. We'd never do that to the Red Cross or United Way.
 
  • #49
russ_watters said:
I don't think it is reasonable to dis-allow a charity from doing marketing. We'd never do that to the Red Cross or United Way.

Luckily we're not talking about charities, we're talking about churches.
 
  • #50
Wouldn't it be a form of double taxation?
 
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