Other Should I Become a Mathematician?

[analyzer]

Hello, everyone. I am from Ecuador, and plan to study math at Escuela Politécnica Nacional, one of the most prestigious universities in my country. Perhaps it is the best one in math (the one that does the most research in the area, and the one with the more PhDs teaching.)

The program places emphasis on applied math. There are two concentrations: modeling and scientific computing, and statistics and operations research. The following are the links to the department's curricula.

Modeling and scientific computing: http://www.epn.edu.ec/attachments/article/77/MALLA%20CURRICULAR%20ING%20MATEMATICA-MENCION%20MODELIZACION.pdf

Statistics and operations research: http://www.epn.edu.ec/attachments/article/77/MALLA%20CURRICULAR%20ING%20MATEMATICA-MENCION%20ESTADISTICA.pdf

My question is whether I can pursue graduate studies in pure math with any of both curricula.

Also, I have to mention that there are two other universities in my city which offer programs in math. One is too expensive for my parents (I do not meet the requirements for scholarships). Anyway, I post the link to its math department curriculum:

http://www.usfq.edu.ec/programas_academicos/colegios/politecnico/carreras/Paginas/matematicas.aspx

Do you think it is better preparation for a PhD in pure math?

The other university's program is the following:

http://www.uce.edu.ec/documents/22800/143833/Malla%20Curricular?version=1.0&t=1351174886263

 

[analyzer]

Sorry. The expensive university's math curriculum is actually at the following link:

http://www.usfq.edu.ec/programas_ac...ments/mallas_academicas/malla_matematicas.pdf

 

[SirIsaac]

"i loved comenetz's book, and wrote the initial rave review of that book. unfortunately i gave away my review copy as a prize to a good student. I attach my (edited) review, no longer available on the publisher's website: (see below)
unfortunately for the buyer, the price has increased from under $40 to over $125. Perhaps that is one reason my review has been removed, since it originally contained a grateful comment about the price."

Correction: mathwonk's review is now at
http://www.worldscientific.com/page/4920-review01
and the paperback edition is $67 at Amazon

 

[converting1]

after doing maths straight for around ~5 hours I find I tend to make a lot of mistakes and usually need a break. What do you guys usually do for a break? I can't find anything to do that isn't too distracting, I don't really play video games nor watch television and work out 5 times a week already. I tried to read but again, it just is too distracting. So what should I do for a break? Or a better question, what can I do so I won't need to have a break?

 

[ovael]

“All human evil comes from a single cause, man's inability to sit still in a room.”
-Blaise Pascal

You could also lie down if you have a bed or sofa available. Perhaps even take a nap. Or take a little walk outside.

 

[mathwonk]

i usually walk around the block and then get back at it. short exercise breaks like that are quite helpful, and better than no breaks at all.

 

[n10Newton]

Mathwonk can you give yours Mathematics Department Undergraduate Course Syllabus.and Books used in each semester. There is syllabus given by you but that is of 2006.

 

[N5soulkishin]

this is an awesome thread what are the job prospects for mathematicians for theoretical mathematics?

 

[mathwonk]

n10Newton,, does this help?

http://www.math.uga.edu/undergraduate/lowerdivisioncoursesandsyllabi.html

 

[mathwonk]

N5soulkishin, even in pure math, learn as much as possible about computers, beginning with how to type your own papers in TeX. Job prospects are better the more you know about computers in my opinion. Today everyone needs to maintain a/or many web pages, possibly even prepare lectures in computer format, and type papers in technical formatting. Those who actually understand how to manage accounts in the cloud for others can earn far more in the business service world.

 

[n10Newton]

n10Newton,, does this help?

http://www.math.uga.edu/undergraduate/lowerdivisioncoursesandsyllabi.html

Thanks for that.

Can you list some journals also.I read the thread whole but not found any,when I was in Pre-University i read the Canadian CRUX for IMO preparation. Currently I am going through journals from MAA. Name some others.

 

[mathwonk]

what are you looking for?

 

[Whovian]

I was about to ask where Number Theory was in the list of major branches, when I realized it was basically a subset of algebra.

Anyway, I've gone through pretty much one's basic high school curriculum, have some rudimentary understanding of number theory (hate it,) am in an intermediate combinatorics class at the moment, have gone through a basic calculus course with little bumps (other than that I'm still struggling with Riemann integrals, working on that,) and have some knowledge of integral multivariable calculus. No idea where to head to next.

 

[mathwonk]

rather than a branch of algebra, number theory is the study of a certain fundamental example, namely the integers, that can be studied by many different techniques. i.e. there is algebraic number theory, a branch of algebra, and analytic number theory, and also arithmetic algebraic geometry.

Basic advice: Try not to make up your mind too soon in favor of, or strongly opposed to, any particular topic, especially not while you are very young and naive. The more you know about it, the more interesting a subject becomes.

 

[Dens]

mathwonk, I am a junior and planning to graduate next year. I have a major problem.

My university has research opportunities, but I am unable to apply for them because I had to do summer classes. I am terribly upset because if I were to apply, I could get the research position easily (I have two profs who can take me) and I don't want to throw away this precious opportunity, but at the same time if I cannot throw away my summer classes either. Extending my college career could heavily influence my future, so pulling off another year is unfortunately out of the question

Summer term is splitted into two. I plan to have two courses per term. One computer science (like freshman level) and probably an art class. for one term and the next another freshman computer science class and maybe an easy stat class. I could technically run into the risk of weighing the research over my grades. So I could sacrifice grades for research, is this a terrible idea? Research is taken up the whole term

 

[n10Newton]

@Dens What you want to do in future it depends on you. If you want to study Mathematics and doing Research then stop the Summer courses in Arts & CS.

 

[mathwonk]

for some reason, the way you present it, i cannot tell what is better. you say that taking the summer courses is necessary. whereas the research is not as necessary. some kind of compromise is usually possible. but you need to be asking these questions of the professors you are going to be working with, in the research opportunity and the courses, not me. in this situation they know you and know the circumstances and can better advise how to work this out.

 

[3.141592]

Hello,

I don't mean to intrude and hope this is not rude but I was not sure where else to post this.

Can I put in a polite request for a 'who wants to be a statistician' thread please?

Apologies in advance for incorrect place of posting.

Thankyou.

 

[tinylights]

Sooooo, I'm a hopeful math major who just started Calc II.

And it's unexpectedly challenging.

I aced Calc I, lowest test score was a B and I feel very comfortable with all of the concepts. But even in the very first week of my Calc II class, sitting down to do the homework, I am spending what seems like an eternity on each problem and struggling my way through them. (We're doing integration by parts primarily, with some new trig identities thrown in there.)

Is there still a chance? Do I have what it takes to be a math major? All of my friends told me Calc II was basically impossible, but I didn't listen... I'm feeling very worried.

 

[homeomorphic]

Is there still a chance? Do I have what it takes to be a math major? All of my friends told me Calc II was basically impossible, but I didn't listen... I'm feeling very worried.

There's always a chance. As I've said before, the bad news is it's going to get 10 times harder when you get to real analysis, then another 10 times harder if you get to graduate school, and then another 10 times harder when you get to research. This isn't much of an exaggeration, although you shouldn't take me completely literally here. The good news is that it is possible to get 10 times better each time. I know at least a couple research mathematicians who failed calculus and others who maybe didn't fail, but didn't do that well.

But it's not easy. Of course, if you just want to get a bachelor's degree and then get a job, you only have to improve your math skills by a factor of 10, rather than 1000.

I can't say that having great difficulties with Calc 2 is a good start, but it is possible to improve and catch up. When I studied that stuff, it wasn't a breeze, since I wasn't that good at math at that stage. By now, Calc 2 seems trivial, but even back then, the idea that it was "impossible" would have sounded like a bit of a stretch.

 

[mathwonk]

@3,14,

why don't you start the thread you want?

 

[mathwonk]

tiny lights: math is hard. i myself got a D- in second semester calc (mostly by not attending.)

i'm just saying, struggling or not, no one can force you to give up. you may not get a fields medal, but if you enjoy the work,..,...

but it depends on you. some of us would be happier elsewhere, just not me.

 

[tinylights]

Thank you both, it makes me feel a lot better to know that a certain amount of struggle is okay. I'm just going to try my best and see where I get, and hit up my professor's office hours like crazy.

 

[dkotschessaa]

Thank you both, it makes me feel a lot better to know that a certain amount of struggle is okay. I'm just going to try my best and see where I get, and hit up my professor's office hours like crazy.

What helped me during that time was to realize that calculus was just a part of mathematics, and doing actual calculations was a small part of that.

By this point, I'm finally doing stuff that either a) isn't calculus (foundations, logic, set theory) or b) that involves very little calculus (probability - we haven't even used calculus in the course yet. The stuff that isn't calculus - the more abstract stuff - seems easier for me (though harder for those that were good at calculus, and who seem to dislike abstraction).

The stuff that *does* involve calculus involves using some technique over and over again, rather than blazing through a thousand different concepts like you do in the calculus sequence, without time or pause or reflection. So you'll get better at that thing.

I also do peer-leading and tutoring for calculus, which forces me to review and understand things better, and certain concepts are only now sinking in - I suspect they'll continue to 'sink' for awhile.

-Dave K

 

[Snow-Leopard]

Becoming a mathematician.

Being a mathematician means doing mathematics, but the activity is not the same as the job. Being a professional mathematician means being a professor, doing research and teaching and writing, or working in an industry using math tools to do things like design cars, or solve turbulence problems for aircraft, or to estimate the actual pollution in streams from samples. I only know about the professor side of it since I have been teaching and working in a university setting most of my life, but the behavior of learning and practicing mathematics is probably not too different for all intended lines of work. Ironically, a professor often has so many duties associated with teaching, grading, evaluating people, recruiting, etc,.. that he/she has to scrounge time to actually do math.

Here you listed many Things but
1.How you get the idea that your future is in Professor Post?
2.What type of work a mathematician do outside his academia i.e, as research?Are they paid just for doing/solving hard type equations?
3.How you get prepared for your Lecture? What you add extras every year that means if you repeat same lecture again and again every year then student may understand that the Prof. is just memorized everything and write downed!

 

[Snow-Leopard]

Matt's remarks on differences in expectations in US, UK remind me of a talk I heard at a conference. The speaker said something like, "this proof uses only mathematics that any sophomore undergraduate would know", then paused and added, "or here in the US, maybe any graduate student". This is true and getting worse.

What do you think the Reason behind it! Syllabus overview or others!

 

[Snow-Leopard]

From 1960-1964 there were undergrads I knew at Harvard, maybe even the typical very good math major, who took the following type of preparation: 1st year: Spivak calculus course, plus more; second year: Loomis and Sternberg Advanced calculus, Birkhoff and Maclane, or Artin Algebra; 3rd yr: Ahlfors and maybe Rudin Reals and Complex; 4th year: Lang Algebra, and Spanier Algebraic Topology.

What do you recommend today as an Undergraduate 4 year Mathematics Course.
Also at this time Harvard is Rocking in PUTNAM Mathematical Competition do you know syllabus of that institute and their recommended text.

 

[Snow-Leopard]

Can you list some journals also.I read the thread whole but not found any,when I was in Pre-University i read the Canadian CRUX for IMO preparation. Currently I am going through journals from MAA. Name some others.

Try the Monthly by American Mathematical Society if you understand the Journal by Mathematical Association of America.

 

[Snow-Leopard]

Good Thread mathwonk but only clear till Graduate Education.

 

[Mariogs379]

@mathwonk, do you know of a good real analysis book for R^n? I hear Baby Rudin's treatment of it is awful...(not that I liked the first half of Rudin...)

 

[Snow-Leopard]

@mathwonk, do you know of a good real analysis book for R^n? I hear Baby Rudin's treatment of it is awful...(not that I liked the first half of Rudin...)

What do you mean by good, Level Low to Rudin or High. I have used 3 books in this order to Real Analysis, Lang to Rudin to Royden.

 

[Mariogs379]

I guess same level as Rudin would be good but more expository, clearer, etc...

 

[A. Bahat]

Try Spivak's Calculus on Manifolds, or maybe Edwards's Advanced Calculus of Several Variables.

 

[mathwonk]

I have often recommended books by sterling berberian and by george f. simmons. look at the first few pages of this thread as well as at the thread on mathematics books.

https://www.physicsforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=225

 

[dkotschessaa]

I'm not sure if I've asked this before - but if I want to go for a PhD after I get my bachelor's, wouldn't it behoove me to go straight for it rather than a masters? And to do it in the same place I get my Bachelors?

A couple of considerations:

Being older and married, it's not easy to think about just picking up and going somewhere else for graduate school. And as a PhD student I'd be at least semi-employed. Right now my wife is supporting me. She doesn't mind - sort of - but does occasionally inquire (understandably) just how long this is going to take.

I'm starting to think I would like teaching, even though I hadn't considered it much before. I've been having very good experiences in peer leading and tutoring. Not to mention I've had some really bad professors who make me go "hmm... I could do that better... if I knew the subject anyway."

Worried that if we have kids in the next year or so I'd be somewhat of an absentee parent though.

 

[mathwonk]

Is is usual to enroll directly in the PhD program and not stop for a separate masters. I got a masters by default part way through my PhD program, which was a good thing since I did not finish the PhD that first time through. At my school the masters requirements were a subset of the PhD requirements so all I had to do was apply for the MA after satisfying them.

It is usual to change schools from BA to PhD, just to gain more mathematical exposure, i.e. to meet more people and more perspectives, and to choose a place that has a specialty in your area of interest. But in special cases it is not unheard of to stay where you are, and having a family and a local job is such a special case.

There have certainly been successful PhD candidates at UGA who were undergrads there, indeed some of the best and brightest undergrads just went straight on without moving away.

Regardless of choices, getting a PhD in math is very demanding on you and your family. So choose a good advisor and supportive department. if you already have one, I would not take it for granted that it can be reproduced elsewhere.

 

[dkotschessaa]

Is is usual to enroll directly in the PhD program and not stop for a separate masters. I got a masters by default part way through my PhD program, which was a good thing since I did not finish the PhD that first time through. At my school the masters requirements were a subset of the PhD requirements so all I had to do was apply for the MA after satisfying them.

It is usual to change schools from BA to PhD, just to gain more mathematical exposure, i.e. to meet more people and more perspectives, and to choose a place that has a specialty in your area of interest. But in special cases it is not unheard of to stay where you are, and having a family and a local job is such a special case.

There have certainly been successful PhD candidates at UGA who were undergrads there, indeed some of the best and brightest undergrads just went straight on without moving away.

Regardless of choices, getting a PhD in math is very demanding on you and your family. So choose a good advisor and supportive department. if you already have one, I would not take it for granted that it can be reproduced elsewhere.

Thanks as always for your encouragement (tempered with a kind dash of reality).

One of the things I really like about my university is the environment. I've gotten to know many of them quite well and they've been extremely supportive.

I'm sure it wouldn't be easy. Right now I find it hard to take more than 2 math classes during a semester without falling behind. This makes me nervous about *any* grad program, given the pace. But getting paid, even just a little, to advance my knowledge? Beats working in I.T. again.

It's a bit to early to decide exactly what I'll be doing, but I am trying to map out all the possible avenues right now.

-Dave K

 

[tinylights]

Just to follow up on my math crisis upon getting into Calc II... just got back results for the first test! I got a 95%! Guess I won't have to become an English major after all lol :)

 

[QuantumP7]

My math obsession has totally screwed up my sleep schedule.

 

[dkotschessaa]

My math obsession has totally screwed up my sleep schedule.

It's worse than video games sometimes... No electronics required!

 

[didu205]

It's worse than video games sometimes... No electronics required!

I quit my lovely girlfriend just to have more time doing math and physics.
I also stop playing video games and also playing guitar often.

Im on my last year pursuing an bsc degree majoring in pure math and applied maths, I am also doing extra physics modules as i want to go for a msc in theoretical physics or even up to a phd if I am lucky.

many dumbass told me why doing maths, physics while i already had a nice degree and job in computer engineering, they told me mathematician and physicist is a waste of time and lot of ashole things.., i told em Hey u know what I'm doing math and physics as i love the subject, not for getting extra money, if there wasnt math and physics u would still be in stone age dumbass.

 

[mathwonk]

"I quit my lovely girlfriend just to have more time doing math and physics.
I also stop playing video games and also playing guitar often."

Hmmm...Isn't that sort of like having a diet where you only eat one type of food, like maybe liver pate'?

As founding math advisor, I cannot in good conscience fully support your judgment here.

 

[QuantumP7]

"I quit my lovely girlfriend just to have more time doing math and physics.
I also stop playing video games and also playing guitar often."

Hmmm...Isn't that sort of like having a diet where you only eat one type of food, like maybe liver pate'?

As founding math advisor, I cannot in good conscience fully support your judgment here.

I don't have anywhere near the experience that mathwonk does, but I have to agree with him here. I was trying to power my way through Spivak's ch. 5 problems (there are 41 or 42 of them, and this my first time doing epsilon-delta proofs, so it took me a while), but I found myself getting frustrated and a little bored. I actually took a few days off from doing math to play some computer games, and when I went back to doing math, I was happily doing the rest of the problems.

Math is a great girlfriend/boyfriend. But sometimes you've got to take a breather, and let your bf/gf take a breather, too, you know? Absence makes the heart grow fonder. <3

P.S. I made it through Ch. 5 unscathed. And could probably do epsilon-delta proofs in my sleep now.

 

[dkotschessaa]

I think with certain endeavors it is natural to have a period of time where you might hyperfocus/obsess a little bit about it. I know when I first got into music I did that. Hopefully you come back out of the cave after awhile.

My approach to things these days is more balanced, but if I were a 20something college student I would probably do the same for math.

 

[Mariogs379]

@mathwonk, just accepted to the Brandeis program!

pretty sure I'm going this fall!

 

[RJinkies]

Hercuflea> Is it possible to receive an applied math Ph.D, but do your dissertation in some other area of science or engineering? I am asking because I want to get a solid foundation on some mathematics courses (functional analysis, advanced and numerical linear algebra, ODE's, PDE's, hilbert spaces, several complex variables) at the graduate level, but I would not really have a chance to take all of these courses if I did an engineering Ph.D. However It seems like it would be the best of both worlds if I could go for an applied math Ph.D. and do my dissertation in nuclear fusion which is ultimately my intended research interest, whilst being able to get the solid mathematical background. Do you know if this is a common thing to do in applied math programs?


Well it sounds like you want a Physics PhD in fusion and do research there, and you'd like a math PhD as well. Now I'm not qualified in any way or form, but i would think that I'd tailor yourself to go the Mathematical Physics route, do all the plasma stuff in grad school, but balancing yourself evenly on the mathematics side and the physics side, from what i seen with undergrad mathematical physics options, it's a physics degree with lots of useful and unusual math, and depending on your interesting you can go the math route or the physics route.

And there is the option of doing a physics degree and then a math degree if you really wanted to spend the time money and energy... or you could just choose a balanced physics degree, and hopefully both interests are coherent enough so you don't feel like you're in two worlds of really hard learning...

I'd like to know what courses you took, and what your feelings were on the different math and physics courses, and what higher classes you're curious about in the physics and math both...

and what you'd like to do with all that applied math... etc

---

I mean i think you could get 70% of what you want with a MA in Plasma Physics


after you take [usually] a 4th year undergrad course in introduction to Plasma Physics

this might open up:

----
a. Phys 507 - Plasma Physics
b. Phys 532 - Plasma Dynamics
c. Phys 533 - Laser Physics [less weighty]
d. Phys 531 - Advanced Plasma Physics - seminar course [less weighty]

e. Math - PDE's
f. Math - Functional Analysis
----

and you could do some of the courses in quantum or nuclear physics/particle physics later with more math courses with the next hoop..


As for the math, i would feel that the best path would be the 'typical' mathematical physics route, and the grad math stuff, you just buy the books on your own time, or just balance things semester by semester with your physics as the main route, packing on a deadly math course a little at a time.


i would think that as an undergrad you'd aim for 70% of this outline... and if you take an extra year for your degree, maybe you don't need to take as much in grad school...

But the ideal undergrad degree, would be this:

Mathematical Physics
------------------------------


Calculus
------------
Math 151 Calculus I
Math 152 Calculus II
Math 251 Calculus III
Math 252 Vector Calculus I
Math 313 Vector Calculus II / Differential Geometry
Math 466 Tensor Analysis [needs Differential Geometry]
Math 471 Special Relativity [needs Differential Geometry and Butkov] [Butkov needs Diff Eqs and Griffith EM]

Analysis and Topology
--------------------------
Math 242 Intro to Analysis
Math 320 Theory of Convergence [aka Advanced Calculus of One Variable]
Math 425 Introduction to Metric Spaces
Math 426 Introduction to Lebesque Theory
Math 444 Topology

Differential Equations
------------------------------
Math 310 Introduction to Ordinary Differential Equations
Math 314 Boundary Value Problems
Math 415 Ordinary Differential Equations [needs Complex Analysis]
Math 418 Partial Differential Equations [needs Differential Geometry]
Math 419 Linear Analysis [needs Theory of Convergence]
Math 467 Vibrations [needs Symon]
Math 470 Variational Calculus [needs Symon and Differential Geometry]

Complex Analysis
-------------------------
Math 322 Complex Analysis
Math 424 Applications of Complex Analysis

Linear Algebra
--------------------
Math 232 Elementary Linear Algebra
Math 438 Linear Algebra
Math 439 Introduction to Algebraic Systems [aka Abstract Algebra]


minor things

Fluid Mechanics [fluid motion/air motion/turbulence] - engineering like - turbulent gases and liquids
------------------
Math 362 Fluid Mechanics I [needs Vector Calculus and Symon]
Math 462 Fluid Mechanics II [needs Boundary Value Problems]

Continuum Mechanics [aka deformation/stress/elasticity] - engineering like - elastic solids
--------------------------
Math 361 Mechanics of Deformable Media [needs Vector Calculus and Engineering Dynamics]
Math 468 Continuum Mechanics [needs Differential Geometry and Boundary Value Problems]

Probability and Statistics
-----------------------------
Math 272 Introduction to Probability and Statistics
Math 387 Introduction to Stochastic Processes

Numerical Analysis
-----------------------
Math 316 Numerical Analysis I [needs Fortran or PL/I]
Math 416 Numerical Analysis II [needs Differential Equations]


Mechanics - 1
------------
Phys 120 Physics I
Phys 211 Intermediate Mechanics [Symon]
Phys 413 Advanced Mechanics [Goldstein]

Electricity and Magnetism - 2
------------------------------
Phys 121 Physics II
Phys 221 Intermediate Electricity and Magnetism
Phys 325 Relativity and Electromagnetism
Phys 326 Electronics and Instrumentation
Phys 425 Electromagnetic Theory

Waves and Optics - 3
---------------------
Phys 355 Optics

Quantum Mechanics - 4
------------------------
Phys 385 Quantum Physics
Phys 415 Quantum Mechanics
Phys 465 Solid State Physics - [should be separate but basic QM is needed for these branches]
Nusc 485 Particle Physics - [should be separate but basic QM is needed for these branches]

Thermodynamics and Statistical Mechanics - 5
--------------------------------------------------
Phys 344 Thermal Physics
Phys 345 Statistical Mechanics

Mathematical Physics
-------------------------
Phys 384 Methods of Theoretical Physics I
Phys 484 Methods of Theoretical Physics II

Plasma Physics [if offered]
-----------------
Phys 477 Applied Plasma Physics


[the Fourth Year EM and QM courses will blur with Grad school sometimes depending on the textbook/school/syllabus]

[but you could see yourself as saying the goal is to get that 400 level EM and 400 level QM course as the cupcake icing to all those courses]



Grad School
--------------
a. Phys 507 - Plasma Physics
b. Phys 532 - Plasma Dynamics
c. Phys 533 - Laser Physics [less weighty]
d. Phys 531 - Advanced Plasma Physics - seminar course [less weighty]

not sure what courses would be suitable or appeal to others
but there are always Mechanical/Aeronautical Engineering courses with Fluid Dynamics and Magnetohydrodynamics [and textbooks that overlap] as well as Nuclear Engineering/Particle Physics/Atomic physics being things to add to things...

You can always buy the textbooks on math if you got your dream niche in physics...

but what would you want to do with the math, and if applied, would you want it to intersect with physics in what areas?


anyhoo, that's my two cents

 

[mathwonk]

dear Mariogs, congratulations! They have changed greatly since my day. they are now more into number theory, than classical algebraic geometry. Do say hello to my advisor Allan Mayer. He is very helpful and also brilliant. And it seems Igusa is graduate advisor, so check in with him too. Do not be shy about asking people for advice and help!

 

[Mariogs379]

@mathwonk,

will do. i just shot you a pm, talk soon!

 

[Trogdor02]

Hi mathwonk, what's your impression of UMass Amherst? I'm interested in number theory

 

[RJinkies]

136 University of Massachusetts Amherst

University of Massachusetts-Amherst Worcester, MA
[Queens University is similar in style]
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