Should you convert all house outlets to GFCI?

[Greg Bernhardt]

TL;DR Summary

Looking for advice on if it is reasonable or a good idea to switch all house outlets to GFCI

I know the code says all outlets in kitchen, bathrooms, workspaces etc should be GFCI. But is it just smart to replace all outlets to GFCI outside some specific circumstances?

 

[jedishrfu]

I think is for places where things can get wet and cause shocks through grounding.

http://www.lewelectric.com/what-is-a-gfi-outlet-used-for-and-where-should-i-install-them/
There are also cases where you can still get shocked and it won't help at all as in touching the two hot prongs directly or by shorting a wire across them.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

There are also cases where you can still get shocked and it won't help at all as in touching the two hot prongs directly or by shorting a wire across them.

So sticking a fork into an outlet, it won't help at all. Only in cases where there is water?

 

[berkeman]

It only helps for faults to ground, not for Line-to-Neutral faults.

Other than the extra cost, I'm not aware of any reason not to switch all to GFCI. There may be an issue with nuisance faults for heavy loads that start quickly, but I'm not sure about that.

 

[jedishrfu]

Yes, water makes it easier to conduct to ground.

https://www.quora.com/What-would-ha...into-a-standard-wall-outlet-What-would-I-feel

 

[jedishrfu]

It only helps for faults to ground, not for Line-to-Neutral faults.

Other than the extra cost, I'm not aware of any reason not to switch all to GFCI. There may be an issue with nuisance faults for heavy loads that start quickly, but I'm not sure about that.

Not to mention trying to figure out what tripped and how to reset it. We had an outlet in our bathroom trip and couldn't find how to reset it. Turns out the garage outlet was the reset point. and it was hidden behind some boxes.

 

[essenmein]

Not certain of the value of having everything GFCI.

I know its either planned or already implemented, but in bedrooms and likely other places, they are now asking for AFCI's, which makes sense, since ground fault shocks are less likely, but an arc causing a fire is a larger concern (bad contacts, partially pulled cord etc).

 

[essenmein]

More info, this is Canadian code, other localities likely vary.

https://electricalindustry.ca/lates...al-code-requirements-for-arc-fault-protection

 

[russ_watters]

Hopefully not a hijack, but there is a related issue you should be aware of:

AFCI requirements. The NEC now requires that virtually all branch circuits for lighting and receptacles in a home must have arc-fault circuit-interrupter (AFCI) protection. This is a form of protection that guards against sparking (arcing) and thereby reduces the chance of fire. Note that the AFCI requirement is in addition to whatever GFCI protection is required—an AFCI does not replace or eliminate the need for GFCI protection.

AFCI requirements are enforced mostly in new construction—there is no requirement that an existing system must be updated to comply with new-construction AFCI requirements. However, as of the 2017 NEC revision, when homeowners update or replace failing receptacles or other devices, they are required to add the AFCI protection at that location. This can be done in several ways:

-A standard circuit breaker can be replaced with a special AFCI circuit breaker. This is a job for a licensed electrician. Doing so will create AFCI protection to the entire circuit.

-A failing receptacle can be replaced with an AFCI receptacle. This will create AFCI protection to only the receptacle being replaced.

-Where GFCI protection is also required (such as kitchens and bathrooms), a receptacle can be replaced with a dual AFCI/GFCI receptacle.

https://www.thespruce.com/common-electrical-codes-by-room-1152276
https://www.eaton.com/us/en-us/catalog/wiring-devices-and-connectivity/afci-receptacles.html

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

AFCI is at the circuit breaker or at the outlet? So GFCI for rooms that get wet and AFCI for everything else? btw has anyone had a surge protector installed at the circuit breaker level?

edit: looks like there are combination AFCI / GFCI outlets too

 

[tech99]

I had an incident where water entered a socket outlet and caused a fire because the current was insufficient to rupture the fuse. I think that a GFCI (RCD in the UK) would probably have tripped on this type of fault. We also split the house into two zones so that not all power is lost.

 

[Guineafowl]

When I studied the UK wiring codes for redoing my house (2012), the advice was to protect every circuit with an RCD. In practice this resulted in two groups of circuits, each one served by its own RCD (a split load arrangement).

The downstairs sockets and upstairs lights were in one group, and vice-versa, so if a socket faulted the local lights would stay on. It was a handy system for first diagnosis, since an RCD trip would mean an Earth fault, an MCB an overload or short.

Circuits without RCD were only allowed with certain earthing systems, and for a reason, such as an oven or workshop welder that might nuisance trip.

Point is, the question was not “should I include RCD”, but “should I not...”. RCDs are the default here. I think our home supplies are all the safer for it, and stories of bathtub electrocutions virtually unknown.

Further to this, electricians are now fitting RCBOs which are a breaker and RCD in one unit, so each circuit now has its own complete protection.

 

[russ_watters]

AFCI is at the circuit breaker or at the outlet?

There's both, but it is much easier to replace the outlet than the breaker. The main issue is that they are much more expensive than regular ones --- but I suspect they will be phasing out the regular ones at hardware stores.

...btw has anyone had a surge protector installed at the circuit breaker level?

No, but we had a thread about it maybe a year ago where a member was looking into it...

 

[Averagesupernova]

The last that I knew GFCI protection is required in any unfinished space such as a garage or basement. If it has a concrete floor, it is considered unfinished. GFCI protection is also required within a certain distance of a sink whether it be bathroom, kitchen, laundry, etc. Nothing says GFCI is required in kitchens in general.
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As far as Arc Fault protection goes, pretty much any living space now requires it. Keep in mind that Arc Fault protection does offer protection against current imbalance between the hot and neutral too, but they are not as sensitive as a regular GFCI device. Arc Fault devices will trip with a current imbalance around 40 mA if memory serves me, but a regular GFCI device will trip with an balance around 5 mA.
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It's been a while but the last house I was involved with wiring had a dual function breaker feeding the garbage disposal/dishwasher circuit. It was a place that Arc fault protection was required and being close to the sink required the 4 to 6 mA GFCI protection. I am not a fan of GFCI protection at the breaker since when it trips it means treking to the basement to reset the breaker, and there is no way to tell if it was an overload/short that tripped the breaker or GFCI protection tripped it. I think the reason we did the dual function breaker was that we used a duplex standard outlet split up because one half was switched for the disposal. You can't split up a regular GFCI outlet. So all the protection went into the breaker.
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My suggestion is to stick with the code. Don't put GFCI stuff where it isn't required such as a bedroom. Use the Arc Fault breakers where required.

 

[Tom.G]

If you have surge protectors (mine are built into outlet strips), it is handy to have them supplied by a GFCI. When the surge protector shunts a surge to Ground it trips the GFCI, thereby disconnecting the protected equipment when a large surge occurs. That seemed to happen about twice a year here in Southern California.

[CktBrkr]---------[GFCI outlet]----------[Surge Prot]----------{protected load}

In my case, the {protected load} is reallly a {battery backup/UPS} to {computer equipment}.

Cheers,
Tom

 

[Guineafowl]

Don't put GFCI stuff where it isn't required such as a bedroom.

Sticking to code is best, of course, but why wouldn’t you put a GCFI in and go one better?

A bedroom may not require one, but going back to those two or three bathtub electrocutions I’ve read about in the states, I believe at least one involved an extension cord from a non-protected bedroom socket.

Ditto a kitchen, but kitchens are downstairs generally, and downstairs sockets get used for plugging in outdoor devices such as hedge trimmers and pressure washers.

 

[Guineafowl]

GFCIs offer fire protection as well as electrocution - if your circuit is run through just a breaker, and an Earth fault occurs such that, say, 10A flows through the Earth loop, that is a lot of power for starting fires.

For example, my friend’s house has antiquated electrics with no GFCIs at all. A live wire came loose from inside a socket and shorted against the corroded Earth inside, causing it to get hot. The loop impedance was too high to trip anything, so the first he knew of the fault was that the socket wouldn’t work and was hot. There was carnage inside. A GFCI would have tripped to indicate the fault, and prevented any significant power from flowing. That could have ended very badly indeed.

 

[essenmein]

GFCIs offer fire protection as well as electrocution - if your circuit is run through just a breaker, and an Earth fault occurs such that, say, 10A flows through the Earth loop, that is a lot of power for starting fires.

For example, my friend’s house has antiquated electrics with no GFCIs at all. A live wire came loose from inside a socket and shorted against the corroded Earth inside, causing it to get hot. The loop impedance was too high to trip anything, so the first he knew of the fault was that the socket wouldn’t work and was hot. There was carnage inside. A GFCI would have tripped to indicate the fault, and prevented any significant power from flowing. That could have ended very badly indeed.

Only if the fault was upstream of the GFCI outlet, if the hot wire falls out of the GFCI outlet and shorts to ground, same problem.

 

[Guineafowl]

Only if the fault was upstream of the GFCI outlet, if the hot wire falls out of the GFCI outlet and shorts to ground, same problem.

Our GFCIs are installed at the supply panel.

 

[hutchphd]

I am pro GFCI and have them in bath and outside. Two places I do not want them: on the refrigerator and on the furnace. They do trip occasionally and I prefer cold food and unfrozen pipes.

 

[Guineafowl]

I am pro GFCI and have them in bath and outside. Two places I do not want them: on the refrigerator and on the furnace. They do trip occasionally and I prefer cold food and unfrozen pipes.

Now, I do sympathise with this, since I have the odd thing on a non-GFCI outlet. But I had a welder that would nuisance trip, so I changed the wiring to non-GFCI. The switch later burned out and I realized the ‘nuisance’ tripping was actually a developing fault!

Standard UK GFCIs are 30mA, which is a reasonable compromise between safety and usability. With several things using one protected circuit, sometimes the Earth leakage from dirt and decoupling caps can add up and cause intermittent trips. The solution is to investigate by clamping L+N and reading fault current, to see if anyone appliance is the culprit. If all’s well, either moving the appliance supplies around or uprating the GFCI might be the next step.

 

[essenmein]

Our GFCIs are installed at the supply panel.

I see GFCI breakers for sale, but at ~5x cost of GFCI outlet its a hard sell. Sometimes you'll see a 15 or 20A line come from the panel, go to a GFCI outlet right next to it, which isn't used at that location, its only used to GFCI the rest of the line that runs off to the kitchen or bath room.

 

[Averagesupernova]

Any house that is going to have some electrical updating done and the argument for putting GFCI outlets in everywhere because of running an extension cord into a bathroom needs some serious rethinking. Do the proper thing and eliminate the extension cord and put a 5 mA GFCI in the bathroom. Keep in mind that the arc fault breakers have imbalance protection around 40 mA. So any wire that touches ground and does not draw enough current to trip a breaker will surely exceed 40 mA to trip.
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One other thing, what are the boxes made of? Many older houses use metal boxes which I am not against but they were physically small and you likely risk more by installing a large GFCI outlet into a box that it hardly fits. The screw terminals get really really close to the box in this situation. If the boxes are plastic, which are typically larger boxes, then the wire slipping out of the terminal is likely not an issue. The outlet will go dead and that is about it.

 

[Guineafowl]

@essenmein this is what I mean:

Fits right on the DIN rail with the other breakers. Two of these would serve the whole house, each taking half of the circuits. Cheap, really. And no need to fit special outlets.

 

[essenmein]

hah I know what they look like, and 16 pound seems like a bargain! compare:

 

[Averagesupernova]

The chances of anything getting installed in the USA that would kill half the power in the house from an imbalance in currents caused by some device plugged in someplace is next to nil. Inconvenience caused by nuisance trips leads to defeating the safety feature of the device that trips.

 

[wirenut]

I installed surge protectors on my main panel 10 yrs ago, saved me headaches many times. Our power doesn't go out often, but when it does, it will try to reconnect and trip a few times. It caused my upstairs neighbor to lose her electronic control board in her stove/oven. The ones I installed have red/green leds to tell you if you need to replace them.
As to the afci/gfci breakers, they will not work with 3 wire (2- 120v, shared neutral) circuits. Also they don't indicate what caused the trip (arc fault, ground fault, or overload). The NEC requiring the use of them, raises the cost of a service upgrade significantly, causing some people to put off, or cancel the upgrade. With smoke detectors, co detectors, updated grounding requirements, and afci in almost all areas not gfci protected, most people won't keep up with repairs until absolutely necessary.

 

[Guineafowl]

The chances of anything getting installed in the USA that would kill half the power in the house from an imbalance in currents caused by some device plugged in someplace is next to nil. Inconvenience caused by nuisance trips leads to defeating the safety feature of the device that trips.

... and yet pretty much all houses in the UK (pop. 70 million) have this system. I think ‘next to nil’ might be a little cynical. ‘Slow to adopt’ might be a better phrase.

That said, I can see a 5mA device being a nuisance tripper. 30mA is the standard here.

 

[Averagesupernova]

... and yet pretty much all houses in the UK (pop. 70 million) have this system. I think ‘next to nil’ might be a little cynical. ‘Slow to adopt’ might be a better phrase.

That said, I can see a 5mA device being a nuisance tripper. 30mA is the standard here.

Yes I had thought that 30 mA here in the USA would be nice from a nuisance point of view. Maybe you underestimate how cynical Americans are? Lol. I can't see most folks going around unplugging stuff until they find the right (faulty) device. We are already protected at around 40 mA here with Arc Fault devices. They are on individual circuits. So half the house won't go dead in the event it trips. Always interests me to see the differences in our electrical systems.

 

[Guineafowl]

Yes I had thought that 30 mA here in the USA would be nice from a nuisance point of view. Maybe you underestimate how cynical Americans are? Lol. I can't see most folks going around unplugging stuff until they find the right (faulty) device. We are already protected at around 40 mA here with Arc Fault devices. They are on individual circuits. So half the house won't go dead in the event it trips. Always interests me to see the differences in our electrical systems.

Yes; You lot seem wedded to unsleeved and non-polarised plugs. We’re slow to adopt AFDDs, and quite a few older houses are still on ‘legacy’ fuse wires with no other protection.

I guess your lower voltage would alter how a 5 or 30mA trip level would perform, too.

 

[Averagesupernova]

Up until Arc fault protection a house with fuses could install GFCI outlets and have pretty good assurance of being safe. I have not seen Arc Fault outlets. It is in the breaker, so stepping up to Arc Fault protection requires a panel change. I do know most electricians are not fond of Arc Fault breakers. They have a reputation of nuisance tripping and other issues. I have them in my house and have not had any issues.

 

[krater]

There are a few specific loads which one should carefully consider before placing them on a GFCI. Refrigerators/freezers are one of them for obvious reasons. Another might be a sump pump, the potential shock hazard can be weighed against a much greater damage for property damage, health hazard, as well as electric shock due to flooded rooms and appliances should a spurious trip knock out a sump pump. Loss of area lighting in a stairwell for example due to spurious GFCI trip can certainly present a risk of injury that would generally outweigh any potential benefit.

Of course local codes don't necessarily allow one to apply logic to a specific install.

GFCI are a legitimate way of adding protection to outdated wiring that lacks an equipment ground. A GFCI device for example could be installed, and even individually grounded to an exterior rod system in the case of a receptacle, and then set up to protect receptacles on the load side of the device. This can make permissible the installation of grounding type receptacles on circuits lacking an equipment ground provided they are identified as being GFCI protected as well as lacking an equipment grounding connection.

Cost is always something to consider. This aside it would probably bring more benefit than nuisance if modern equipment is used. Do not forget that codes frequently illustrate a bare minimum of installation standards and do not as a matter of course perscribe a maximum level of protection.

 

[trainman2001]

It won't cause any problem have GFICs everywhere other than overkill. They're not cheap. But, unlike a electromechanical circuit breaker which are pretty simple and reasonably failsafe, a GFI is an electronic instrument that has its own failure modes. When the GFI won't reset, or trips repeatedly, the problem is often that the GFI itself has failed. Electromechanical breakers fail less frequently. Sometimes, they do fail after a trip, but not as often as a GFI's. Achem's Razor… simple is better.

 

[Sherwood Botsford]

Just came up at a place where I was doing some trenching work for a shop line:

Owner said that code required AFCI for sub panel. Problem was that almost every motor that had brushes would set of the AFCI. True? Adjustable as to how much arc matters? He had sufficient trouble with it that he was going to leave the AFCI in until the inspection was done, then replace with a regular breaker.

 

[.Scott]

I wouldn't convert "all" house outlets to GFCI. I have run into too many devices that will trip them when they are turned on or off. I had a compact florescent in my bathroom that would flip it pretty regularly. When I asked an electrician what I did wrong - he said that that was just a problem with CF.

Also, some devices with heavy motors will often trip them when they first start up.

So I wouldn't do "all" outlets. I would also not daisy chain the GFCI units or put the GFCI device itself in the breaker box. If you trip one of these things, it will be easier to track it down if you only need to go to the outlet that's being used. The obvious exception being when the outlet is inaccessible.

 

[Guineafowl]

It won't cause any problem have GFICs everywhere other than overkill. They're not cheap. But, unlike a electromechanical circuit breaker which are pretty simple and reasonably failsafe, a GFI is an electronic instrument that has its own failure modes. When the GFI won't reset, or trips repeatedly, the problem is often that the GFI itself has failed. Electromechanical breakers fail less frequently. Sometimes, they do fail after a trip, but not as often as a GFI's. Achem's Razor… simple is better.

Hmm... Occam’s razor is really a principle for assessing the validity of statements. Would you rather your family drove old cars with no ABS, seatbelts, power steering/brakes or crumple zones, and a solid steering column that impales the driver during a head-on collision? He didn’t say, ‘simple is better’. He said that plurality should not be posited without necessity.

I would argue that a GFI is a complication but necessary - standard breakers are there to protect the wiring from overload and fire, but offer no direct protection from electrocution. They also offer protection against Earth faults with too high a loop impedance to trip a breaker, but enough power to start a fire.

My current house’s electrics are protected by an RCD/GFI made and fitted c.1990. It still passes function tests.

Ask yourself: Are your objections to GFIs based on ‘we’ve been alright so far without’? Can you apply the same logic to car seatbelts? An appliance should withstand a high DC voltage between its live conductors and Earth before being certified safe, hence should not trip an RCD. If you get nuisance trips, do you blame the RCD, or the appliance? All my fridges and freezers are on them, and have been since I was in short trousers.

 

[sophiecentaur]

and have been since I was in short trousers.

It's nice and warm here today. I am "in short trousers".

 

[krater]

...unlike a electromechanical circuit breaker which are pretty simple and reasonably failsafe, a GFI is an electronic instrument that has its own failure modes.

I would consider the basic concept of a GFI to be quite simple and straightforward, and its operation to face fewer challenges than an electromechanical circuit breaker of which quite a bit more is demanded in a protective role. Certainly the two technologies have their differences, but what then about GFPE devices? Thinking bigger than the branch circuit level, the advantages of an imbalanced current sensing method can be much more effective at clearing a fault early than relying on thermal or electromagnetic flux effects to trigger the actuation of a protective device. GFPE use is mandated in certain installations.

When the GFI won't reset, or trips repeatedly, the problem is often that the GFI itself has failed. Electromechanical breakers fail less frequently. Sometimes, they do fail after a trip, but not as often as a GFI's.

This is a vast quantity of baloney. By far the most frequent cause of GFI trips is a fault after the device, commonly something like a bad connection in a cord or piece of equipment. This fault might be present due to moisture or damage, which causes the GFI to act as designed. Removing the fault often resolves the problem. GFI devices are made to be regularly tested and this test regimen can include using an exteral device ("plug tester") to simulate an imbalance that exceeds the threshold of the trip unit. It would make no sense to design a device that is prone to fail on trip and then require regular trip testing of the device.

On the other hand a garden variety inverse time circuit breaker can be observed to "weaken," or trip more easily, after repeated overload trips. Sometimes this is a transient condition, where simply waiting for the heat mirage to dissapate from the abused breaker restores normal function. But with repeated events the behavior of a breaker can change, and typically manufacturers recommend factory inspection and re-calibration of a device after it clears a fault that may have been near or at its rated limit, say due to a short or ground fault.

 

[berkeman]

But, unlike a electromechanical circuit breaker which are pretty simple and reasonably failsafe, a GFI is an electronic instrument that has its own failure modes. When the GFI won't reset, or trips repeatedly, the problem is often that the GFI itself has failed. Electromechanical breakers fail less frequently. Sometimes, they do fail after a trip, but not as often as a GFI's.

This is a vast quantity of baloney.

Sounds like some references links about this assertion by @trainman2001 would be helpful...

 

[Nik_2213]

I'm in UK. Although this house has a lot of 'renovated' electrics, there's still enough 'legacy' stuff to need a full re-wire to bring us to 'modern' code.

But, we've done what we could...
Fuse-boards without integral breakers have ground-fault breakers instead of fuse-holders.
Outlets at risk of mishap have integral breakers.
Extension cable reels for garden have 'breaker plugs', 'Test Before Each Use'.
The canopy-sheltered 'weatherproof' box on patio with outlets for party lights, security cameras' IR 'flood-lamp' and LED 'night-light' strip in cats' 'p-porch' has such a 'breaker plug' on the indoor end...
The house-front 'weatherproof' double-outlet for eg Halloween decor has such a 'breaker plug' on the indoor end...

The ring-main that supplies our land-line's DECT phones' base-station and 'Aid-Call' pendant system does get nuisance trips, usually from a spilled kettle. So, those essentials share a modest, wall-hung UPS, to be sure, to be sure...

And, yes, there's also a 'basic' handset daisy-chained from the master phone socket. Remember, if your house and a few neighbours lose power, you'll probably get cell-phone service. If whole street trips out, there'll be much contention at the mast. But the old land-line may be okay...