So we have problems with clocks measureing time ?

[Doctordick]

now explain to me the difference of "what you know" versus "what you observe via tools or equipment"

your definition of time is not very useful for quantifying it, and relaying said information in a meaningful matter to another individual...

Are you sure of that? Have you examined (in detail) the consequences of that defintion? I think not!

Have fun -- Dick

 

[JoeWade]

Are you sure of that? Have you examined (in detail) the consequences of that defintion? I think not!

yes, it's not as deep and meaningful as you make it out to be. again the implications of it are that it is not a useful modus for relaying temporal quantification to another individual.

"what time is lunch?"
"when you know it is lunchtime..."
"uhh... thanks?"

 

[Chronos]

Sir Chronos,

While flattering, the title 'Sir' is unwarranted.

your responses show little if any thought.

Nor do your unfounded assertions and specious conclusions, IMHO.

We cannot have a serious discussion of anything without first defining what it is we are talking about.

Agreed.

The issue of this thread is a concise and well thought out definition of "time". One of the first issues of definition itself is that the word being defined is not to be used in the definition. A definition which includes the word "rate" requires a definition of "rate" before it is useable. Since "rate" is generally defined as the ratio between change in something and the change in time, the concept presumes time is defined and thus is not a valid concept within the definition of time.

Circular logic, at best.

It appears to me that you have a lot of confidence in what has and what has not been proven.

Agreed. Nothing has been proven. On the other hand, much has been disproven.

I think it would benefit you to take a little trouble to think about these things.

I have, and still arrive at the same conclusions. You retreat into reductionist logical abstractions and evasive semantical arguments when your assertions collapse under their own weight.

Now I would contend that is a rather extreme statement. They certainly disagree as to the proper equations to be used to transform from one coordinate system to another. You should be more careful in your pronouncements. Neither did Newtonian relativity! What is much more significant is that SR does not include a rule for transforming between accelerating coordinate systems which Newtonian relativity does.

Huh? I think you have that backwards.

It was Einstein's attempts to generalize his theory (an absolute necessity by the way) which lead to the gravitational results.

Agreed.

If you look at the fundamental deduction of general relativity, you will find discussion of direct transformations from a coordinate system attached to an accelerating elevator.

In the interest of avoiding a semantical argument later, explain which 'fundamental deduction of GR' you are talking about. Please phrase it in unambiguous terms that you think that I [and most of the rest of us] can agree upon.

Problems in measurement arose there which did not allow a simple generalization thus Einstien's result was not unique. A very interesting problem which has received little really serious attention.

Please elaborate on what you mean by the 'measurement problems'. I am not aware of any. Please also explain which 'simple generalization' you are referring to.

Now here you are fighting a losing battle as "natural unique coordinate systems" are use all the time on a day to day basis in physics. In fact, lots of different "natural unique coordinate systems" are used. For example, the rest frame of the laboratory in which an experiment is done; or a coordinate system which makes the one way speed of light the same in all directions.

Most of us call those 'inertial reference frames', not 'natural unique coordinate systems'.

The central issue of relativity is that all these coordinate systems are equally valid. In almost every case, each and every experiment suggests it's own "natural unique coordinate system".

Agreed. So what is your point?

It is the fact that the "laws of physics" must be the same in all of these coordinate systems which allows us to determine the required transformation equations between those various coordinate systems.

See prior objection to your prior assertion the the wrong transformations are being used.

And finally, to Russ, I still say you are being a bit provincial with your comments. I think it would be worth your while to step back once and look at the fundamental nature of the problems which confront us. I would expect a mentor to take a little more care with his comments. What you say cannot possibly be rationally defended as logical.

Your conclusion is not supported by facts in evidence... at least none among the unsupported arguments you made in this post. Russ's, on the other hand, appear sound.

You are saying that because "that speed is not needed to make any of the calculations 4Newton was proposing", it is not a universal reference frame.

And he is entirely justified in that assertion. It agrees with all known theory and observations.

You seem not to understand the principle of relativity.

Russ is not the one who appears to be confused about the principles of relativity, or logic.

The principal or relativity is that all reference frames capable of indicating the information associated with any given experiment are fully useable. If one adds to that the fact that the laws of physics are particularly simple in a specific frame (think of Newton's inertial frame), then all one needs is the specific transformation from the particular simple frame to a frame of reference of interest and one knows what happens in that frame of interest. Einstein's General Relativistic frame is just such a "simple" frame, quite analogous to Newton's inertial frame; however, the required transformations to the frames of interest

What 'frames of interest'?

...are not quite as simple as Newton's but they can nonetheless be done. That fact is used over and over again throughout physics. There are a number of unique frames used all the time.

Unique with respect to what? They all look 'relativistic' to me.

For example, the GPS system is a coordinate system tied to time as measured by a clock in Colorado and is by that fact, a very unique coordinate system.

Not unique.

Since it is always possible to set up a specific coordinate system tied to a specific clock the term "universal" could be attached to the concept.

Universal? with respect to what?

There is another rather unique coordinate system used quite often in a lot of experiments. That would be a coordinate system tied to center of mass of the universe (in this case, read "universe" to be a reference to the collection of entities which are significant to the experiment of interest and may range from no more than the components of a single nucleus to a nuclear accelerator, the solar system, the galaxy or everything including the cosmic background). Call such a coordinate system a CoM system. Certainly the CoM system is unique and it is also quite universal. One can very reasonably suggest that relativity should require the laws of physics to be the same in every CoM system conceivable.

Relativity already does that.

In fact, that is essentially exactly what the COBE scientists did when they documented the solar systems velocity through the universe at 371 km/sec.

But all this is outside the discussion on this thread which is "what is the definition of time?"

The interval I wasted posting this response.

 

[4newton]

Real Time

Here is a definition of time that does not use rate, or time and is universal.

Time is the result of our transition outward from the Big Bang. Our transition outward from the Big Bang is in what we recognize as the time dimension. The transition is at a speed equal to the speed of light.
This transition is the stabilizing mechanism of the universe. All spatial dimensions are referenced to this transition and it gives us the definition of velocity. All motion in any spatial direction is shown as perpendicular to this transition.

 

[russ_watters]

your reputation as a...

Easy, JoeWade. No need to feed the "..."

If you want to discuss the central problem with defininition itself, I am very open to the issue. Are you?

Absolutely not. The term in question has a specific meaning in this context (as do pretty much all words scientists use) and you are using it incorrectly. There is no room for discussion. This isn't the philosphy forum. Either you discuss science on its own terms here or not at all.

It seems your only contribution here ever is arguing over definitions. I have yet to see any actual science from you. Perhaps you'd do better in our philosophy forums?

And your patronizing tone is most unwelcome here.

4Newton - sorry this thread got hijacked (then again, he did start the thread...). We seemed to be making some progress and if you want to continue, by all means do...

 

[brodix]

Dr. D,

Ok, though I can assure you that you will not be able to comprehend it, I will nevertheless give you exactly what I mean when I use the term: time is an ordering of what I know (and what I know changes). The past is what I know and the future is what I do not know (and have hopes of predicting). Time is nothing more than a parameter which I use to refer to a state of presonal knowledge.

Actually this is a generally rational statement. Not very descriptive though. I realize your mental blocks are not going to accept anything I have to say, but you might want to review Complexity Theory and transpose past with order and future with chaos. One of the basic insights of Complexity Theory is the dichotomy between top down order and bottom up growth. It corresponds with my point about time having two directions; The entity/set/top down order is going from beginning to end, while the process/bottom up growth is going toward the next generation, leaving the old...

What is first, past or future? From our perspective, past events proceed future ones, but from the perspective of the events, say your birthday, they are first in the future, then in the past...

The trick here is to take a big breath, now start thinking... no, no, not the spleen, the brain! I'm sure it used to work just fine, now climb up out of that depression and remember, nobody really cares what you think, so don't get so self conscious about it. Clear the brain, start over again.

regards,

brodix

 

[JoeWade]

Time is the result of our transition outward from the Big Bang. Our transition outward from the Big Bang is in what we recognize as the time dimension. The transition is at a speed equal to the speed of light.
This transition is the stabilizing mechanism of the universe. All spatial dimensions are referenced to this transition and it gives us the definition of velocity. All motion in any spatial direction is shown as perpendicular to this transition.

but all "transition" is performed at a rate...

even transitions of the mind, Dr.Dick

 

[4newton]

4Newton - sorry this thread got hijacked (then again, he did start the thread...). We seemed to be making some progress and if you want to continue, by all means do...

I have created an experiment to help understand our points of view.

It would help if you gave me your view of the experiment and the expected results. This will point out where we have a disagreement, if any.

Space-time Special Relativity Experiment
This is not just a mind experiment. This low cost experiment may be done with equipment available in any science facility.

Equipment required
1.Three resettable clocks with a repetition rate in the range of 100 to 1,000,000 pulses per second.
2.Three high-speed resettable time bases.
3. Three high-speed gated counters.
4 One gated or pulsed light source.
5 two high-speed photo detectors.

. G
. |
. |
. D4
. |
. |
. E------------------------------ F
. |--------------D1--------------|
. |---------------------- F2
. |---------D2----------- | -D3- |

Three identical clocks are placed at positions E, F, and G. All clocks are repetitive and synchronized so that all clocks repeat zero at the same time. Included in each clock are synchronized high-speed time bases.

The clock at E is used to send a light pulse to F and G at time zero of the clocks.

At time zero counters at positions F and G start accumulating the output from the high-speed time base until the light pulse is received from E. This repeated accumulation might continue for any desired time period effectively adding distance on each clock cycle. The greater the number of cycles the higher the resolution of the measurement. If a high repetition rate is used an effective measurement of millions of meters may be achieved in a short time.

Dt1 = D1 * N

Where Dt1 is total distance and N = the number of cycles of the clock.

The same is true for all accumulated time measurements in this experiment.

All clocks may be synchronized and zeroed using the light pulse from E when the system is moving at a velocity V1. After synchronization with the system moving at any velocity all accumulated time will be the same on all clocks.
After synchronization any change in velocity may result in a change of accumulated time between clocks. The clocks may be stopped at any time to take a reading of accumulated time.

The diagram shows a system with the clocks at E, F, and G. The initial system has a velocity of V1 where V1 => 0. The time required for the light to go from E to F is
(D1 / c) = t1
where (c) is the speed of light.

The time required for light to go from E to G is
(D4 / c ) = t3

With each cycle of the clock time t1 and t3 are added to their respective counters.

After synchronization and zeroing of the clocks and time bases the system is then allowed to increase velocity to V2 where V2 > V1.
At velocity V2 the clock F should be at position F2 at the same time the light pulse from E arrives at that point. The resulting distance for the light to travel to the F clock from E is D2 and the time to D2 is

(D2 / c ) = t2

Accumulated time over a period at clock G should remain constant regardless of the velocity of the system as the change of path from E to G remains unchanged as the velocity of the system is changed in the EF direction.

A change of the accumulated time at counter F should be less than G because the distance from E to F, D1 changed to D2 when the system is moving at a velocity of V2

If any changes are to be seen as velocity changes from V1 to V2 this experiment should detect the changes.

If no changes are measured within this system SR then tells us nothing and has no reality within the system.

Is there a measurable change when looking from one system at V1 to another system at V2?
If there is a measurable change from one system to another is it real or just the result of distortion of observation caused by the limit of the speed of light?

 

[Chronos]

You are trying to compare local inertial reference frames to some sort of 'universal' reference frame. The results will never make sense until you apply relatavistic corrections. Until you acknowledge the fact there are no 'preferred' reference frames, none of this will ever make sense to you. I am not trying to be critical, merely pointing out the assumptions you are using are incorrect.

 

[what_are_electrons]

The Existence of Time

I've read about half of this thread. Very interesting.

WRT the concept of time, please consider three questions:
What natural occurence caused man to produce the very first unit of time?
Does time, as a unit of measure, really exist?
Do we really need this unit of measure?

...

 

[4newton]

but all "transition" is performed at a rate...

You are correct. Our discussion here is limited to the nature of time in our universe and the quantum world.

The explanation I gave for time can account for all things only in our universe.

Our transition in the time dimension is an absolute reference in our universe. It is absolute for us because we have no power or ability to change our transition outward from the Big Bang, time base, using any of the physics we know about at this time.

A rate by definition is a reference of one thing to another, miles in reference to time, three apples for every two oranges dropping to the ground… Time, the transition from the Big Bang, may be referenced to something else. That reference however has no influence on anything in our universe and we have no indication or its existence. With out some clue it is impossible if not very difficult to discover its nature. (We seem to be able to do the impossible but very difficult is much harder in my experience).

The view may be taken that the rate of time is in reference to a fifth dimension. This view could go on forever.

For us, with our limited ability, this may be the same as the question of God, what is the prime.
The unbreakable law is that we can not know anything that would remove our free will. You must always be able to deny that God exists.

We should be happy that we are even able to arrive at some understanding of the nature of time.

 

[Chronos]

I've read about half of this thread. Very interesting.

WRT the concept of time, please consider three questions:
What natural occurence caused man to produce the very first unit of time?

Observation.

Does time, as a unit of measure, really exist?

If not, then we cannot make meaningful observations.

Do we really need this unit of measure?

Not unless you wish to make meaningful observations and predictions.

Time is an unavoidable consequence of any universe that permits itself to be observed. We observe the universe, therefore, time exists. Time is an inherent and required feature of any universe that includes causality.

 

[russ_watters]

I have created an experiment to help understand our points of view...

What was wrong with your other experiment? It was a lot simpler (frankly, I can't understand what you are saying in this one), its results are easy to predict, and its implications for other experiments already performed are obvious. I always get the impression that once a thought experiment is explained unsatisfactorily (to the person who doesn't like SR) a new and more complicated one is created and the first one ignored in an attempt to obfuscate the issue. Intentional or not, this will keep you from understanding the problem with what you are saying. Please just stop and think about the implications from your 1st thought experiment - and please don't hide behind the fact that its a thought experiment (it is, actually, a good thought experiment).

For example, if your experiment succeeded and found a universal reference frame, what would you predict the results of the Michelson Morely experiment to be? What about pion decay experiments? What about the behavior of GPS satellites.

This is intriguing though:

If there is a measurable change from one system to another is it real or just the result of distortion of observation caused by the limit of the speed of light?

There is a measurable change in clock rate with speed, it is real, and it is a consequence of the constancy of the speed of light.

I'm also still waiting for you to say if you viewed the power point presentation I linked.

 

[russ_watters]

Time is an unavoidable consequence of any universe that permits itself to be observed. We observe the universe, therefore, time exists. Time is an inherent and required feature of any universe that includes causality.

To say otherwise (as some people do) is equivalent to saying "length" does not exist or is undefined.

 

[4newton]

What was wrong with your other experiment? It was a lot simpler (frankly, I can't understand what you are saying in this one), its results are easy to predict, and its implications for other experiments already performed are obvious.

There was nothing wrong with the other experiment except that you agreed through many of the points then changed you mind and jumped form SR to GR it did not seem that you were able to follow the line of thought presented. In other words you are just confused.

I have now given you a simple real experiment, not just a thought experiment, that you say you don’t understand but has results you can predict. You need to explain that concept to me.

If you have some questions about the experiment please feel free to ask and I will explain them to you. You need to tell me what you don’t understand about clocks, timers, distance, or the speed of light.

For example, if your experiment succeeded and found a universal reference frame, what would you predict the results of the Michelson Morley experiment to be? What about pion decay experiments? What about the behavior of GPS satellites.

The M&M experiment has nothing to do with this experiment; we are not talking about aeather drag or any concept of the aeather. I see no disagreement with any other experiment. Please be more specific about the conflicts you are thinking about.

I'm also still waiting for you to say if you viewed the power point presentation I linked.

I did look at it and I assumed it was meant to be insulting. If you were in earnest then you mistake understanding with my questions about the theory. You have never explained where my understanding is incorrect. You only restate that it violates SR. There have been very few experiments done to test SR. there have been the same experiment done many times but the questions I raise have not been tested. Some of the questions I ask you are to find out your understanding with the hope to find common ground between us and a starting point..

 

[russ_watters]

There was nothing wrong with the other experiment except that you agreed through many of the points then changed you mind and jumped form SR to GR it did not seem that you were able to follow the line of thought presented. In other words you are just confused.

C'mon now, there was no such problem. GR had nothing to do with it and I never said it did. It was a simple experiment with a simple prediction. I understand what you were going for just fine, its just that your prediction is wrong. I want to explore that to see if I can make you understand why.

I have now given you a simple real experiment, not just a thought experiment...

Any experiment that has never been performed is a thought experiment - both of your experiments are thought experiments.

You need to tell me what you don’t understand about clocks, timers, distance, or the speed of light.

Its not the laws of physics I don't understand, its your experimental setup. In any case, I don't want to get into that. Why bring up a new problem when we never resolved the old one?

The M&M experiment has nothing to do with this experiment; we are not talking about aeather drag or any concept of the aeather.

The aether, is the Universal Reference Frame. Finding the Universal Reference Frame means finding the aether and finding the aether means finding the Universal Reference Frame.

I see no disagreement with any other experiment. Please be more specific about the conflicts you are thinking about.

If you don't see any disagreement between what your experiment/hypothesis would mean for M&M or other experiments, then we're back to you not understanding what SR says.

Tell me this: when calculating the SR time dilation on a clock on a GPS satellite, what velocity should I use? As I said before, your experiment implies that since we do not know the 'real' velocity with respect to the Universal Reference Frame, we do not have a velocity to use to calculate the performance of a GPS clock. Ergo, if you are correct, the GPS system should not work.

I did look at it and I assumed it was meant to be insulting. If you were in earnest then you mistake understanding with my questions about the theory. You have never explained where my understanding is incorrect.

Insulting? What are you talking about? I'm trying to help you here and that presentation went straight to the heart of the matter. It virtually word-for-word agreed with what I was saying.

You only restate that it violates SR. There have been very few experiments done to test SR. there have been the same experiment done many times but the questions I raise have not been tested.

How can you say that? I have linked a number of experiments. Why haven't you commented on them? The pion decay experiment seems relevant: Why doesn't a pion fired east travel further than one fired west? And since your experiment involves clocks moving in space relative to an arbitrary reference point, I would think you would see the GPS system - which involves clocks moving in space relative to an arbitrary reference point - would be particularly relevant.

Maybe it was a mistake to restart this - I'm starting to wonder if you are making a sincere effort here.

 

[russ_watters]

Some quotes from the LINKED PRESENTAION I consider important:

The first directly addresses what we discussed above: the relevance of ether and the M&M experiment (particularly, the last sentence):

Newton's concept was that there was some universal reference frame against which all measurements could be referenced. It became known as the ether...

However, it proved to be wrong.

More on M&M - this is exactly what the purpose of your thought experiment is:

[M&M] proposed to determine the Earth's motion through the ether.

One part you've never mentioned is the implication in your thought experiment that the speed of light is not constant to all observers. This is what the implication of the M&M experiment is:

Either the Earth was not moving or the speed of light did not change acording to the motion of the light source.

The first could be ruled out, so the second had to be true.

But this violated the certainty of Newton's assumption of a universal reference frame.

Skippping to Einstein's SR. It has two postulates. The first is precisely contradictory to your assertion:

There is no absolute reference frame.

On testing:

His predictions have been tested experimentally and they have never failed.

As you can see, there is quite a lot in that presentation that directly and specifically contradicts what you are saying.

 

[Doctordick]

yes, it's not as deep and meaningful as you make it out to be. again the implications of it are that it is not a useful modus for relaying temporal quantification to another individual.

I am afraid you are totally wrong in that judgment. The implications are very deep and in fact, in the final analysis, yield exactly the characteristics you deem essential to your provincial issues: i.e., "what time is lunch?"

No definition more complex than the one I gave is needed. All, and I mean all, of the characteristics of "time" required to do modern physics flow inevitably from that exact definition. That is, for anyone with sufficient attention span to consider the detailed consequences.

Nor do your unfounded assertions and specious conclusions, IMHO.

I am sorry, but my assertions are based on extremely careful analysis. My only reason for posting here is an attempt to find some one with sufficient interest and attention span to consider my arguments. It would be a shame to see my discoveries die with me as appears to be the actual case.

We cannot have a serious discussion of anything without first defining what it is we are talking about.

Agreed.

It is nice to obtain some agreement! Definition is quite important as it is quite easy to misinterpret what another says if the meanings of things are not thoroughly and exactly tied down. For example, in the following exchange, either you misunderstand what I said or I misunderstand what you are saying: i.e., either you are agreeing with me or you are misunderstanding me.

The issue of this thread is a concise and well thought out definition of "time". One of the first issues of definition itself is that the word being defined is not to be used in the definition. A definition which includes the word "rate" requires a definition of "rate" before it is useable. Since "rate" is generally defined as the ratio between change in something and the change in time, the concept presumes time is defined and thus is not a valid concept within the definition of time.

Circular logic, at best.

That is, I essentially said that using "rate" to define "time" is a circular definition and your comment appears to be saying that my argument is circular reasoning.

Agreed. Nothing has been proven. On the other hand, much has been disproven.

Agreement again! I am astounded! However, I would throw in a minor cavil which, in all probability you will fail to comprehend: disproving something requires one to understand that which he is disproving. Sometimes people are disproving what they think someone has said, not what he has said! Careful thought is careful thought and one should go to great pains to make sure one does not misrepresent an issue.

I think it would benefit you to take a little trouble to think about these things.

I have, and still arrive at the same conclusions. You retreat into reductionist logical abstractions and evasive semantical arguments when your assertions collapse under their own weight.

No, I don't think you have. You contend that I retreat into "reductionist logical abstractions" when, in fact, the only reason I bring up reductionist ideas is to point out the inevitable uselessness of such an attack; however, it is nonetheless very important to remember the fact that the truth of any deductions must collapse down to the necessity of the original premises.

Secondly, I wouldn't say that I retreat into "evasive semantical arguments". What I am doing is trying to point out to you that there is significant room for alternate attacks here. I am trying to open your mind to possibilities presently beyond your comprehension.

Finally, please point to an assertion I have made which "collapses under its own weight".

Now I would contend that is a rather extreme statement. They certainly disagree as to the proper equations to be used to transform from one coordinate system to another. You should be more careful in your pronouncements. Neither did Newtonian relativity! What is much more significant is that SR does not include a rule for transforming between accelerating coordinate systems which Newtonian relativity does.

Huh? I think you have that backwards.

No, rather I suspect you did not understand what I said. SR certainly does not include a rule for transforming between acceleration coordinate systems. In order to do that, we must go to GR. Newton's relativity is entirely general as the transform equations between accelerating systems can be deduced directly from the nature of the Euclidian coordinate system: get any decent text on classical mechanics and look up centrifugal and/or coriolis forces. Both arise from the fact that the coordinate system being used is not inertial. In Einstein's system, gravity arises because the coordinate system being used is not inertial; if you don't understand that then you do not understand GR.

Thank you also for agreeing with my statement that Einstein's generalization of his theory of relativity led to gravitational results; however, most everybody agrees with that. I thank you nonetheless.

If you look at the fundamental deduction of general relativity, you will find discussion of direct transformations from a coordinate system attached to an accelerating elevator.

In the interest of avoiding a semantical argument later, explain which 'fundamental deduction of GR' you are talking about. Please phrase it in unambiguous terms that you think that I [and most of the rest of us] can agree upon.

When Einstein worked out his general theory, he was faced with the problem of defining a rigid object in an accelerated frame (he uses the analysis of an accelerated elevator as the bridge between the two frames). It is clear that in a general accelerated frame, definition of a rigid object is certainly impossible and this does yield some uncertainty in the proper form of the transformations between general frames. As such, it also yields subtle variations in the gravitational possibilities. This is exactly the reason behind that term which was, on different occasions, either inserted or omitted from his theory (check the development of general relativity and you will find the term I refer to).

In my work, I have discovered a subtle way around that problem which eliminates the need to define a rigid object and thus yields only one possibility (unless I have made a mistake of course; however, I have not found any mistake and no one else has offered to help look for one).

Most of us call those 'inertial reference frames', not 'natural unique coordinate systems'.

Oh, I understand exactly what you mean. The only reason I chose to call them "natural unique coordinate systems" was because most scientists give little attention to the fact that they assume the particular coordinate systems they like to use are "natural". If physics is to be an exact science, these issues have to be taken seriously. There is a long discussion which could be had on that subject but I don't think it would serve much purpose here and now. I would much rather get you to think about some other subtle facts and their consequences.

(to be continued!)

 

[Doctordick]

The central issue of relativity is that all these coordinate systems are equally valid. In almost every case, each and every experiment suggests its own "natural unique coordinate system".

Agreed. So what is your point?

That there are a large number of different ways a coordinate system can be set up. Careless definition of time (essentially the act of presuming you know what the term means without considering all possible consequences) is simply unscientific.

It is the fact that the "laws of physics" must be the same in all of these coordinate systems which allows us to determine the required transformation equations between those various coordinate systems.

See prior objection to your prior assertion the the wrong transformations are being used.

I have no idea what assertion you are referring to here.

And finally, to Russ, I still say you are being a bit provincial with your comments. I think it would be worth your while to step back once and look at the fundamental nature of the problems which confront us. I would expect a mentor to take a little more care with his comments. What you say cannot possibly be rationally defended as logical.

Your conclusion is not supported by facts in evidence... at least none among the unsupported arguments you made in this post. Russ's, on the other hand, appear sound.

Then you are not looking at Russ's comment carefully! Look carefully at the following where you quote me:

You are saying that because[/color] "that speed is not needed to make any of the calculations 4Newton was proposing", it is not a universal reference frame.

And he is entirely justified in that assertion. It agrees with all known theory and observations.

If you look at what he said, you should be able to see that the statement "it [the frame which was used to derive the 371 km/sec velocity] is not a universal reference frame" is simply not a logical consequence of "that speed is not needed to make any of the calculations 4Newton was proposing". It makes no difference whether the conclusion is true or false or is justified by any other arguments; the point I was making was that it simply is not a valid logical deduction. His use of the word "because" implied he was stating a specific logical deduction. This is a no more than a simple sign of sloppy thinking on his part.

Russ is not the one who appears to be confused about the principles of relativity, or logic.

Now that is a matter of opinion. My opinion is that he is either confused or sloppy.

The principal or relativity is that all reference frames capable of indicating the information associated with any given experiment are fully useable. If one adds to that the fact that the laws of physics are particularly simple in a specific frame (think of Newton's inertial frame), then all one needs is the specific transformation from the particular simple frame to a frame of reference of interest and one knows what happens in that frame of interest. Einstein's General Relativistic frame is just such a "simple" frame, quite analogous to Newton's inertial frame; however, the required transformations to the frames of interest

What 'frames of interest'?

Whatever frame you happen to want to make your measurements in!

...are not quite as simple as Newton's but they can nonetheless be done. That fact is used over and over again throughout physics. There are a number of unique frames used all the time.

Unique with respect to what? They all look 'relativistic' to me.

Unique to the measurement equipment or analysis one is using. That comment "They all look 'relativistic' to me" is a little on the meaningless side. Unless you have more than one coordinate system of interest, there are no transformations to be performed! The adjective "relativistic" has meaning only with regard to transformation relations and is in no way applicable to a specific coordinate system standing alone! If you cannot understand that, then you simply do not understand the nature of coordinate geometry.

For example, the GPS system is a coordinate system tied to time as measured by a clock in Colorado and is by that fact, a very unique coordinate system.

Not unique.

It isn't? How many coordinate systems are there where t is exactly what is given by that atomic clock in Colorado, barring trivial rotations and translations?

Since it is always possible to set up a specific coordinate system tied to a specific clock the term "universal" could be attached to the concept.

Universal? with respect to what?

Why with respect to the possibility of applying the concept to another circumstance! Doesn't "universal" mean that the system applicable to all cases?

There is another rather unique coordinate system used quite often in a lot of experiments. That would be a coordinate system tied to center of mass of the universe (in this case, read "universe" to be a reference to the collection of entities which are significant to the experiment of interest and may range from no more than the components of a single nucleus to a nuclear accelerator, the solar system, the galaxy or everything including the cosmic background). Call such a coordinate system a CoM system. Certainly the CoM system is unique and it is also quite universal. One can very reasonably suggest that relativity should require the laws of physics to be the same in every CoM system conceivable.

Relativity already does that.

Tell me please, where did I say it didn't?

In fact, that is essentially exactly what the COBE scientists did when they documented the solar systems velocity through the universe at 371 km/sec.

But all this is outside the discussion on this thread which is "what is the definition of time?"

The interval I wasted posting this response.

Well, now you need to define "interval".

The central issue of this thread is the fact that time (as used by the scientific community) is not a well defined concept. This is only the tip of the iceberg of sloppy thinking. The issue of definition is one of the most important issues of any scientific investigation. The presumption that you understand exactly what is being said is one of the most dangerous presumptions of science which can be made. The possibility of misunderstanding is always present and the consequences of that possibility should be reckoned with fully.

Suppose there exists an entity we can communicate with which has the correct explanation of everything. If that is the case then our problem is to eliminate misunderstanding. That entity exists! It is called reality and it stands talking to us on a daily basis. Our only problem is to carefully analyze what it is saying to us without making assumptions about what the "words" (our experiences) mean.

The central problem is definition itself. –Now that is an assertion!- I will defend it in detail to anyone who cares to discuss it. Mr. Watters has already specifically rejected it as a subject worthy of discussion:

Absolutely not. \dots There is no room for discussion. This isn't the philosphy forum. Either you discuss science on its own terms here or not at all.

He isn't the first to suggest my work is philosophy; most all physicists make that assertion. The Philosophers tell me it's mathematics and the mathematicians tell me it's physics. So round and round I go and where I stop no one knows!

I think the sciences are a magnet to idiot savants! If they learn the rules it isn't necessary to understand anything to be at the top of the field. Thought is just not a necessary ingredient to their success.

And your patronizing tone is most unwelcome here.

Oh, then you would rather I showed respect for what I personally find to be seriously sloppy thinking? So it's a "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" organization is it? Well, you can count me out of that solipsistic exchange. I find myself very happy to have reached an acceptable state of retirement without ever having had to subvert my behavior to the opinions of others. I don't think many have managed to do such a thing and count it as a major accomplishment.

Oh yes! Thank you for admitting that you hijacked my thread and not the converse. Why not move your self serving pontifications somewhere else; you have a lot more influence with authority on this forum than I do.

Have fun -- Dick

 

[brodix]

4 Newton,

Time is the result of our transition outward from the Big Bang. Our transition outward from the Big Bang is in what we recognize as the time dimension. The transition is at a speed equal to the speed of light.
This transition is the stabilizing mechanism of the universe. All spatial dimensions are referenced to this transition and it gives us the definition of velocity. All motion in any spatial direction is shown as perpendicular to this transition.

This was one of Stephen Hawking's definitions of time. Einstein's reference was gravity and the prediction that the universe would collapse to a point. One arrow of time is expanding energy, the other is collapsing mass.

The basis of your assumption that there is a universal clock seems to be the timeframe of the Big Bang. While it is useless to argue against the Big Bang Theory, rgy, even reputable scientists are starting to consider what might have come before. If the singularity was proceeded by a big crunch, or some other form of cycling process, then our universe constitutes a unit of time, one defined by the material consequences of gravity,radiation and whatever other forces which might be proposed. These are relativistic processes.

When the energy which constitutes this particular unit of time, called the universe, is finished this cycle, it goes on to others. So, the unit of time goes start to finish, while the process goes on to the next generation...

 

[brodix]

4 Newton,

Time is the result of our transition outward from the Big Bang. Our transition outward from the Big Bang is in what we recognize as the time dimension. The transition is at a speed equal to the speed of light.
This transition is the stabilizing mechanism of the universe. All spatial dimensions are referenced to this transition and it gives us the definition of velocity. All motion in any spatial direction is shown as perpendicular to this transition.

The irony of this assumption is that it is only valid if all energy considered constitutes a closed set, yet the Big Bang has reached the point of having to say that ninety six percent of all matter and energy cannot be accounted for. If even one electron were to seep in from a previously unaccounted dimension, it would cause cascading chaos to the presumed order of this system.

 

[4newton]

Hi Russ;

4Newton:
You read the post on the GPS system. I think you agree it works. Do you also agree, disregarding gravity, that if you take a clock, as they did in the GPS system, from Earth surface to the orbital distance of the GPS that your clock will slow down? Like wise if you take a clock from the GPS orbit to the Earth surface it will speed up? GPS satellites have their clock rates calibrated prior to launch using Einstein's prediction so that once in orbit they stay in sync with ground-based clocks.

Russ:
Absolutely. The question is how much.

4Newton:
I think we have a starting point.
The main point is that we now agree that the rate of clocks is bi-directional. If a clock ( L ) that has been moving with a velocity in a spatial dimension and has a spatial velocity that is less than clock ( M ) and clock ( H ) and clock ( M ) has been moving at a velocity that is less than clock ( H ) then, clock ( H ) will run the slowest and clock ( L ) will run the fastest and by agreement, clock ( M ) is in the exact middle and has a rate to that effect.
If we bring all three clocks together, after a set time period, without changing the conditions of clock ( M ) then, clock ( L ) will have accumulated the most time and clock ( H ) will have accumulated the least time.

Do we still agree?

Russ:
Yep. Still there.

4Newton;
It has been agreed that:
If a clock moves from reference frame ( H ) to reference frame ( M ) the clock will have an increase in rate, the clock will tick faster. Like wise a clock that moves from ( M ) to ( L ) will again increase in rate.
Therefore if the rate of a clock is relative only from frame to frame then the process may continue without limit and the clock rate will increase without limit. You have but two choices. A point where velocity may be absolute zero or time rate without limits.
This of course also applies to meter rods. Your meter rod would increase to infinity.

Do we still agree?

Russ:
You said nothing in your last post about a clock moving into a different reference frame. All you had were 3 clocks in 3 frames moving at 3 speeds. But if you accelerate H's clock to M's speed, its tick rate will slow down relative to a stationary observer.

Clock H is moving faster and is decelerated to the speed of M the clock rate must increase. Each time the clock moves to a slower frame the clock rate must increase.

4Newton:
Therefore if the rate of a clock is relative only from frame to frame then the process may continue without limit and the clock rate will increase without limit.

Russ:
Except for the caveat that no clock can stop due to time dilation because no clock can go the speed of light, there is no limit to how different the readings of two identical clocks can be.

4Newton:
You have but two choices. A point where velocity may be absolute zero or time rate without limits.

Russ:
Since nowhere in any of this has the word "absoute" appeared, it doesn't belong there either. In fact, it directly contradicts everything we were just agreeing on: if everything is relative (except C), then how can anything be absolute?

Maybe I should have forced you to specify after you first brought up the speeds of M, L, and H: speed relative to what? A stationary observer is, of course, the answer, but that's still not good enough: is that an absolutely or relatively stationary observer? If you say absolutely, then you are assuming that speed is absolute, not demonstrating it.

You only need speed relative to each other but it would make no difference. the whole object is to indicate the change of clock rate with change of velocity is bi-directional
This is why I have gone to a real experiment. You asked for a demonstration that speed is absolute.

 

[4newton]

Hi Russ

Any experiment that has never been performed is a thought experiment - both of your experiments are thought experiments.

My view is that a thought experiment was created when it was not possible to run a real experiment. This is not the case with my experiment.

Its not the laws of physics I don't understand, its your experimental setup. In any case, I don't want to get into that. Why bring up a new problem when we never resolved the old one?

This is a better experiment then any observations to date. All the clocks moving in the same frame cancel the effect of velocity on clock time. There are no observational distortions from frame to frame. It measures the speed of light relative to the direction of travel verses perpendicular to the direction of travel. It measures the speed of light with a one way path. The resolution of the measurement is without limit. Calibration is automatic and independent of outside reference. It is also easy and cheep to setup.

All I would like you to tell me if you will see a difference between the accumulated time on the clock that is measuring the direction of travel verses the perpendicular clock. If not why not?

The aether, is the Universal Reference Frame. Finding the Universal Reference Frame means finding the aether and finding the aether means finding the Universal Reference Frame.

I don’t see that it is important with this question at this time. As you said, “Why bring up a new problem”

Tell me this: when calculating the SR time dilation on a clock on a GPS satellite, what velocity should I use? I said before, your experiment implies that since we do not know the 'real' velocity with respect to the Universal Reference Frame, we do not have a velocity to use to calculate the performance of a GPS clock. Ergo, if you are correct, the GPS system should not work.

The GPS system is using a number of about 2.4 ns per meter/sec from zero velocity. They seem to think there is a zero velocity. They used the number of 2160 ns from the surface of the Earth to 9360 ns to the satellite or a difference of 7200 ns. They may have taken two or three measurement of change of rate at different velocities and projected back on the curve to zero.

 

[4newton]

This was one of Stephen Hawking's definitions of time.

When and where did Hawking describe this explanation of time?

It is always interesting to speculate on what was before the Big Bang but the evidence is very slim to work with. In fact religion seem to have more fact than physics in that area.

One question that we can ask and maybe some day find out is if the Big Bang was a single event or was it one of many cycles. Are we just the plus or one half of a full cycle just like any wave. Also are there other universes just behind us, maybe just micro seconds away? Is our positive universe balanced by the negative part of the cycle with antimatter in the other half?

These are just some thought without any evidence but I find them fun.

 

[4newton]

Hi Brodix;

The irony of this assumption is that it is only valid if all energy considered constitutes a closed set, yet the Big Bang has reached the point of having to say that ninety six percent of all matter and energy cannot be accounted for. If even one electron were to seep in from a previously unaccounted dimension, it would cause cascading chaos to the presumed order of this system.

This theory is not dependent on a closed universe, in fact it supports the open universe. All the energy of the universe will just continue outward at the speed of light until the energy differential is less than Planck level and all action will cease. (There is no dark matter)

 

[Neo]

One question that we can ask and maybe some day find out is if the Big Bang was a single event or was it one of many cycles. Are we just the plus or one half of a full cycle just like any wave. Also are there other universes just behind us, maybe just micro seconds away? Is our positive universe balanced by the negative part of the cycle with antimatter in the other half?

These are just some thought without any evidence but I find them fun.

I, too, find them quite fun. [Sticks tongue out like Einstein]

With respect to time dilation...

During the Big Bang, when space was expanding explosively (probably at light speed) -- what was time doing? Was time at a standstill (or very dilated) during the explosive growth of the three spatial dimensions? Or was time expanding explosively since it's in a continuum with space?

 

[axawire]

DoctorDick,

Your definition of time is inherently floored! For if you died, time would no longer exist for the rest of us :-(

Think about it!

Have fun -- Dick

 

[russ_watters]

Clock H is moving faster and is decelerated to the speed of M the clock rate must increase. Each time the clock moves to a slower frame the clock rate must increase.

Yes, I understand your assertion. Its quite simple. So please explore the implications of your assertion by making predictions about the related experiments I posted.

I don’t see that it is important with this question at this time.

Since you are trying to find the universal reference frame, why don't you consider a past attempt to find the universal reference frame important? Perhaps if you examined the past failed attempt, you'd understand why your attempt would fail: your attempt would fail for the same reason M&M's attempt failed. Isn't understanding why important to you?

As you said, “Why bring up a new problem”

Well, you did ask for evidence, didn't you? Since your experiments have never been performed, the only way to predict what will happen is by looking at experiments that have been performed. And maybe that's part of the problem: you don't want to do that. You want to make your prediction based on your preconcieved notion of how the universe should work. Thats not scientific.

The GPS system is using a number of about 2.4 ns per meter/sec from zero velocity.

Actually, the SR deviation is 7,000 ns per day, which gives me .24ns/day/m/s, but you can't really express it in a linear relationship. But whatever - the point is there is a calculated deviation.

They seem to think there is a zero velocity.

Indeed they do. But according to you, we haven't found that reference frame yet. So how can they use that number?

They may have taken two or three measurement of change of rate at different velocities and projected back on the curve to zero.

May have? No, in fact the GPS system was not set up via trial and error. It was calculated ahead of time. In addition, since the satellites orbit in different inclinations, the deviations (by implication from your hypothesis) should be different. They aren't.

How do you reconcile this with your assertions? How do you reconcile the fact that the quotes fom the presentation clearly and specifically contradict your points? You seem to be ignoring those points. 4Newton, it seems to me like you are at a crossroads here: you can either accept reality at face value or ignore it in favor of obfuscation. You seem to be choosing to ignore it.

 

[Doctordick]

DoctorDick,

Your definition of time is inherently floored! For if you died, time would no longer exist for the rest of us :-(

Think about it!

Have fun -- Dick

Ah, inherently floored[/color] is it? I would suggest you think a little before you go off half cocked! I presume you meant to say "flawed"[/color] and the best interpretation I can think of is that your complaint was meant to be totally facetious. Taken seriously, it does little but point out your limited ability to think. There is nothing in my definition of time which changed either by my birth or my death (other than the fact that "my personal knowledge of the universe" did not exist before I was born and ceases to change when I die)! Are you contending that you knew something of the universe before you were born? Or perhaps that your knowledge of the universe will continue to change after you die? If so, I would certainly like to see some of your evidence.

I am presently aware of many things which occurred before I was born (the past is what I know) and the things I do not know (the future is that which I do not know) could very well be infinite. I would rather say, under my definition of time, when I die, time would no longer exist for me. What will exist for the rest of you is fundamentally unknown but is most probably not much different from what existed for you in the past.

I gave you my definition of time which was specific and exact. No one on this forum has yet given me an explanation of what they mean by time which I can comprehend as useful. I suspect very strongly that you mean exactly the same thing I do but simply do not know how to express it.

Your inability to express it is evident by your inability to recognize the full consequences of my definition.

Have fun -- Dick

 

[brodix]

4Newton,

When and where did Hawking describe this explanation of time?

I think it was Brief History of Time. He listed three. That one. One dealing with human perception and I don't remember the third. It might have been entropy.

Also are there other universes just behind us, maybe just micro seconds away?

I think one of our primary problems with appreciating the real depth and complexity of reality is the reductionistic assumption that space and distance are the same. Distance is to space what the mile markers on a road are to the entire experience of it, scenery, driving conditions etc. Analysis is useful, but it can be isolating, if not kept in perspective. Learning how to see the world whole takes more intellectual effort than examining objects. Our brains evolved as navigation tools, so we tend to study the path in front of us and judge the usefulness or danger of what we encounter. Trying to see it all is impossible, so that is why I find understanding the relationship between objects and processes so important.

This theory is not dependent on a closed universe, in fact it supports the open universe. All the energy of the universe will just continue outward at the speed of light until the energy differential is less than Planck level and all action will cease. (There is no dark matter)

So I suppose it would be more accurate to say that your concept of time is based on C. (?)
The problem with this might be; What is it relative to? In a sense, it is like a clock with hands, but no face. It may be motion, but is it time?
Just as I've argued that space is the essence of the absolute, I think that an argument might be made that time is the essence of relativity. As you assume, it is a function of measuring motion, but as Relativity points out, at the speed of light, there is no time because the reference frame is moving at the same rate as that being measured, ie. both the hands and the face are spinning around together. Time, then, only exists when the reference frame is something other then what it is measuring, ie. what it is relative to.

 

[russ_watters]

Ok, I've been thinknig more about your second thought experiment, 4Newton, and I think I figured out where you're going with it. To avoid you thinking I don't understand, I'll just finish it and you tell me if its right or wrong:

In your second thought experiment, you have 3 clocks moving at 3 different linear velocities through space. Your first prediction, based on SR, is that the fastest clock in linear speed has the slowest tick rate. Your second prediction is that if you decelerate the fastest clock to the linear velocity of the second fastest clock, its tick rate will speed up to match that of the second clock. Decelerate it to the linear velocity of the slowest clock, and its tick rate will speed up again to that of the slowest clock.

Now for the important prediction: if you decelerate the clock further, it will continue to speed up its tick rate. You predict that eventally, you will get to the point where the clock's tick rate won't speed up any more - it'll start slowing down again. The implication is that you have hit and passed the absolute state of rest and the clock is now traveling backwards from the direction it started in, in absolute space. You have therefore found the absolute rest frame.

Is this what you predict?

 

[PFanalog57]

Hello again Dr. D

As you keep[correctly] repeating, in so many words, that each event in space-time has its own intrinsic measure of the "present moment" which is the separation of past and future, with the future as an uncertainty.

Why not represent the present moment of an arbitrary observer as the inward collapse of the "past" light-cone to the present moment and the outward expanse of the future light-cone into the uncertain future.

A 2-dimensional "cross-section" of the present moment, or proper time of an observer, p:


[<-[->[<-[p]->]<-]->]

Now it appears that the past moments are cumulative and are increasing in density? as a cumulative stacking of present moments. Since the laws of physics are time invariant, the uncertain future is beholden to the action principle

Here is an interesting derivation of general relativity:

http://www.geocities.com/rnseitz/General_Relativity.htm

 

[brodix]

russ,

The implication is that you have hit and passed the absolute state of rest and the clock is now traveling backwards from the direction it started in, in absolute space. You have therefore found the absolute rest frame.

The observation seems to be that space is the absolute. Time is relative to its rate of motion relative to it.(?)

 

[JoeWade]

if the galaxy is moving at 371km/s through the universe and light moves at 300,000 km/s through our galaxy doesn't it stand to reason that light moves 300,371 to 299,629 through the universe?

just curious about what that would be like...

 

[4newton]

Ok, I've been thinking more about your second thought experiment, 4Newton, and I think I figured out where you're going with it. To avoid you thinking I don't understand, I'll just finish it and you tell me if its right or wrong:

You have stated it better then I did and you do have the right idea.

Now the question is how does SR handle this idea not just from the conclusions people have made about SR but from the math. Where does SR state that V0 may not be a real absolute zero?

If there is any disagreement with SR then I think it is important to have an experiment to test for spatial zero rest. That is where the real experiment I have developed comes into play.

 

[4newton]

The implication is that you have hit and passed the absolute state of rest and the clock is now traveling backwards from the direction it started in, in absolute space. You have therefore found the absolute rest frame.

There was another post at the same time I was posting my last reply and I see this statement was not understood from the way you said it.

Acceleration or in this case deceleration is the way you move toward zero velocity after you reach zero velocity any change is acceleration and the clock doesn’t go backward into negative time the rate of the clock just starts to go slower still accumulating positive time.

I think this is what Russ was stating. This is the point of my thought experiment.

 

[Muddler]

Hi 4Newton!
I have to admit that after several times of reading I still don't really understand what your (2nd) experiment would prove.
Still, I think there is already one simple yet fundamental problem (I might be wrong though):

Three identical clocks are placed at positions E, F, and G. All clocks are repetitive and synchronized so that all clocks repeat zero at the same time.

How would you make sure they repeat zero at the same time??
Put them all together, reset them and then move them to your described starting points?
If so, how can we be sure, they are still repeating zero at the same time, when these starting points are reached? Don't we have to apply relativistic considerations the moment we are moving them apart?
Sure, as soon as the points are reached and the clocks are stationary to each other, it is valid to assume, they are ticking at the same rate, but I am afraid that's not identical with them displaying the same time.

I might be confusing things here, so please correct me, but that was what occurred to me when I read your description of the experiment...

 

[brodix]

4Newton,

The implication is that you have hit and passed the absolute state of rest and the clock is now traveling backwards from the direction it started in, in absolute space. You have therefore found the absolute rest frame.

Acceleration or in this case deceleration is the way you move toward zero velocity after you reach zero velocity any change is acceleration and the clock doesn’t go backward into negative time the rate of the clock just starts to go slower still accumulating positive time.

I don't think russ was suggesting that you go into negative time, but that since you reached the point of rest, motion in the other direction results in time starting to slow again.

the clock doesn’t go backward into negative time the rate of the clock just starts to go slower still accumulating positive time.

What you are saying here is that it isn't acceleration which causes time to slow, but velocity and as you deccelerate to zero velocity, the rate of time does continue to increase. So what russ is saying is that if you deccelerate to zero velocity, time reaches its maximum rate, then when you start accelerating in the opposite direction, time starts to slow again. Which is what you are saying.

 

[brodix]

So while space is an absolute, any method of measuring it requires time, which is relative.

The problem is that we confuse distance with space. Distance is a specific dimension, but space doesn't come with a set of coordinates. As I have argued previously, any number of coordinates can define the same space, so space is infinitely dimensional. Geometry never incorporated the zero, as it begins with the point, which is the center of a specific coordinate system. This is an arbitrary set, so zero in geometry is empty space. Distance, as a dimension, isn't zero, therefore it's not an absolute and is relative to whatever factors are determining it. It is the measurement of distance which leads to the conclusion that space is relative.

 

[russ_watters]

You have stated it better then I did and you do have the right idea.

Ok, so that is what you predict? Well, quite simply, it requires (assumes) that there is an absolute rest frame - a frame which if it existed would have been found with the M&M experiment. It requires a variable speed of light - something you haven't mentioned. There are a whole truckload of implications (predictions for the real experiments I mentioned) to the assumption of an absolute rest frame, and as stated in the presentation I linked: "There is no absolute reference frame."

The part where you are assuming it (even though you don't know it) is that you don't define the reference frames you are using ahead of time. To say one clock is moving faster than another, you have to say what it is moving with respect to: There is a 4th clock in a 4th reference frame in your thought experiment. This reference frame, you assume, is the absolute reference frame. It isn't. Its just as arbitrary as the arbitrary speeds you give to your moving clocks. When a clock stops moving in space and becomes stationary with respect to this arbitrary reference frame, then its stationary for the purpose of the thought experiment.

Now the question is how does SR handle this idea not just from the conclusions people have made about SR but from the math. Where does SR state that V0 may not be a real absolute zero?

The math follows the postulates. SR states that there is no absolute zero speed in the first postulate.

If there is any disagreement with SR then I think it is important to have an experiment to test for spatial zero rest.

And indeed there have been: SR exists largely because of these experiments and their failure to find the absolute frame.

That is where the real experiment I have developed comes into play.

Again, any of your experiments could be conducted in real life. Until they are, they are thought experiments. But not to worry, similar experiments have been conducted and based on these, we can predict the results of yours.

Acceleration or in this case deceleration is the way you move toward zero velocity after you reach zero velocity any change is acceleration and the clock doesn’t go backward into negative time the rate of the clock just starts to go slower still accumulating positive time.

That is correct (and brodix is correct) - that is what I was saying.

 

[russ_watters]

if the galaxy is moving at 371km/s through the universe and light moves at 300,000 km/s through our galaxy doesn't it stand to reason that light moves 300,371 to 299,629 through the universe?

just curious about what that would be like...

You are correct. And that's an implication that 4Newton hasn't mentioned. But the fact that that implication is not observed (the speed of light is constant to all observers) is an important piece of evidence that this universal frame does not exist.

 

[brodix]

russ,

if the galaxy is moving at 371km/s through the universe and light moves at 300,000 km/s through our galaxy doesn't it stand to reason that light moves 300,371 to 299,629 through the universe?

...the fact that that implication is not observed (the speed of light is constant to all observers) is an important piece of evidence that this universal frame does not exist.

An absolute isn't a reference frame, but an equilibrium.

It would seem that the speed of light being constant, regardless of ones own velocity, does require a counterbalancing relationship, with increasing velocity corresponding to a decreasing measure of time.

 

[4newton]

Time and time again

Hi to you Muddler and all.

I have to admit that after several times of reading I still don't really understand what your (2nd) experiment would prove.
Still, I think there is already one simple yet fundamental problem (I might be wrong though):

In the (2nd) experiment I am trying to establish that time dilation is bi-directional. That is if you move a clock from one frame moving at a velocity M to a frame that is moving at a higher velocity H your clock will tick slower. (Everyone seems to agree with this). If on the other hand you move a clock from H to a frame moving at a slower velocity M or even a slower moving frame L your clock will tick faster. (I seem to not be able to get a firm statement on this point.) You only have three choices, faster, no difference, or slower. Make you choice and tell why.

How would you make sure they repeat zero at the same time??
Put them all together, reset them and then move them to your described starting points?

Yes

If so, how can we be sure, they are still repeating zero at the same time, when these starting points are reached? Don't we have to apply relativistic considerations the moment we are moving them apart?

Yes, but clock F and G will move the same distance and may be tested by the fact that they accumulate the same amount of time, count, in the high speed counter from the high speed time base time base on each cycle of the pulse clock. Let me make clear that the high-speed time base, oscillator or what ever you would choose to produce a repetitive stable output has nothing to do with the pulse clock.
The rate of the pulse clock is not important. It is only necessary that the three pulse clocks are stable with regards to each other. The pulse clock and the high-speed time base should not be synchronized together to assure they do not lock on each other. If they lock together they will degrade the accumulated output of the counters resolution.

You may also synchronize the pulse clocks by using the pulse from the clock at E. You then check that the high-speed counters F and G agree or at least measure the ratio of their differences and use that to correct your test results. If you wish to have them agree all you need do is move counter G until it agree with counter F.

After this setup you are now ready to change the velocity of the frame and take you measurement.

 

[4newton]

Hi to Brodix.

What you are saying here is that it isn't acceleration which causes time to slow, but velocity and as you deccelerate to zero velocity, the rate of time does continue to increase. So what russ is saying is that if you deccelerate to zero velocity, time reaches its maximum rate, then when you start accelerating in the opposite direction, time starts to slow again. Which is what you are saying.

Yes, can you believe that two or more people on here can agree on anything?

 

[4newton]

Hi again Brodix.

The problem is that we confuse distance with space. Distance is a specific dimension, but space doesn't come with a set of coordinates. As I have argued previously, any number of coordinates can define the same space, so space is infinitely dimensional. Geometry never incorporated the zero, as it begins with the point, which is the center of a specific coordinate system. This is an arbitrary set, so zero in geometry is empty space. Distance, as a dimension, isn't zero, therefore it's not an absolute and is relative to whatever factors are determining it. It is the measurement of distance which leads to the conclusion that space is relative.

Yes, Space or any point in space is a zero order function and has no reference. Distance is a first order function and is relative to two points. Velocity is a second order function and is related to distance and time. Acceleration is a third order function and is related to distance, velocity, and time. You may go on to a change of acceleration then on and on.

The question is do we have a universal reference when we get to velocity. Is the universal reference time? My view is yes. I do not see anyone stating that we can not have a system without acceleration, why? The answer is that we can feel acceleration. Why then is not a system without velocity allowed? Both acceleration and velocity are dependent on the reference of time.

 

[4newton]

Hi russ_watters
Russ if you want me to learn something please try not to jump ahead of my basic question to you.
The question is do clocks slow down when they go from a slower velocity to a higher velocity and do they speed up when going from a higher velocity to a slower velocity.

 

[JoeWade]

i think the problem you will encounter with your thought experiment is there's no way to verify clocks running slower or faster at those speeds, to the person traveling AT that speed his clock looks normal. and he can't verify it against a clock in a "slower" frame without first slowing down himself and comparing the clocks side-by-side.

any discrepancies in time could be due to acceleration factors, which are not SR but GR :(

i dunno. hope you guys can work this one one out, it's pretty interesting

 

[russ_watters]

Hi russ_watters
Russ if you want me to learn something please try not to jump ahead of my basic question to you.
The question is do clocks slow down when they go from a slower velocity to a higher velocity and do they speed up when going from a higher velocity to a slower velocity.

Ok...the answer to the question is yes.

 

[Nacho]

I've read with interest the discussion here on whether there is no absolute space (per Relativity), or if there could be an absolute space.

I've read an article that both sides of this should read. It is a refreshing and enlightening (to me at least) approach to absolutes VS relatives. It was written by Tsung-Dao Lee, co-winner of the 1957 Nobel prize for discovery of some symmetry laws being broken. I wish I could link to it, but I can't find a printing of it on the net that doesn't need a subscription. It is from his book Introduction to Field Theory.

Rather than talking about things like "space/time is definitely relative, that is the way it is, and there absolutely cannot be anything else, Relativity demands it, it can't be any other way", he talks about them in terms of;

1) non-observables;
2) the corresponding symmetry transform; and
3) the conservation law or selection rule.

and he talks about the laws that were thought to be symmetrical and conserved the exact same way, and just says the symmetry breaking is an observable/has been observed. He makes no claim if symmetry will ever be broken for a particular group ... just that it is not observed.

 

[4newton]

Hi Russ:

Ok...the answer to the question is yes.

Thank you for putting up with me.
I think you know my next question but here it is.
Can you then go from higher velocity to a lower velocity without limit? Of course then the clock rate would increase without limit.