Solenoid and toroid inductance puzzle

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the inductance of solenoids and toroids, particularly focusing on the implications of introducing air gaps into these magnetic circuits. Participants explore the calculations and assumptions related to inductance in different configurations, questioning established equations and concepts in the context of reluctance motors.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the validity of the inductance equations for solenoids and toroids when air gaps are introduced, suggesting that the presence of air significantly alters the magnetic field strength.
  • Another participant provides a mathematical framework for calculating the inductance of a gapped toroid, emphasizing the role of stored electrical and magnetic energy.
  • A subsequent reply discusses the implications of a very small air gap, suggesting that the inductance equation should converge to that of a toroid, yet expresses confusion over why the second term in the equation does not diminish as expected.
  • One participant asserts that H is not continuous around the magnetic loop, which challenges the conventional understanding of inductance calculations.
  • Further contributions highlight the complexity of calculating inductance in solenoids with iron and air gaps, suggesting adjustments to improve accuracy in the presence of fringe fields.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the validity of traditional inductance equations in the presence of air gaps. There is no consensus on whether the established equations are fundamentally incorrect or if the discrepancies arise from specific assumptions or conditions in the calculations.

Contextual Notes

Participants note limitations in the calculations, including the handling of fringe fields and the assumptions regarding the continuity of H and B fields across different materials. The discussion remains open-ended regarding the implications of these factors on established inductance equations.

phy5m2w
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Im working with building a reluctance motor and I've posed a problem to myself that i cannot answer without questioning some long accepted facts about the inductance of a solenoid.

The simple solenoid and toroidal solenoid are two shapes that seem to have simple equations for calculating the inductance/B field.
e.g:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/magnetic/indtor.html
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/indsol.html

for my puzzle see attachment...

Panel 1:
I start with the inductance of a toroid, a completed magnetic circuit which has a inductance and B field for which I agree with the online equation as quoted.

Panel 2:
I add an airgap in the toroid. The magnetic circuit now has a break in it, so the complete circuit needs to take into account for the air and the iron that it passes through. This is done using the reluctance of the two materials, the metal and the air. the result presented as i understand it, now 1/4 of the flux path is in air.

Panel 3:
A 'simple' solenoid where over half the flux path must be through the air. since the relative permeability of the air is so much smaller this part should be the dominent term. making the B field considerably smaller than the value normally quoted!

I have not neglected to include effects of the obvious change in area that the flux is passing through when it is not 'confined' to the metal, so this is oversimplified... BUT this does not explain away the piece of physics that I am questioning here.


Have I made a foolish mistake here or has virtually every physicist/engineer in history learned something that's fundamentally wrong? which i find hard to believe.


This has confused me for far too long, which is it?

Woody
 

Attachments

  • inductance thought experiment.jpg
    inductance thought experiment.jpg
    21.1 KB · Views: 960
Engineering news on Phys.org
The inductance of a gapped toroid can be calculated by equating the stored electrical energy ½LI2 and the stored magnetic energy ½∫BH dV:

\frac{1}{2}LI^2=\frac{1}{2}\int_V BHdV = \frac{\mu\mu_0}{2}\frac{A_i_r_o_nN^2I^2}{\ell_i_r_o_n}+\frac{\mu_0}{2}\frac{A_g_a_pN^2I^2}{\ell_g_a_p}

where H=NI/\ell and B = μH in gap and μμ0H in iron, Airon and Agap are the cross sectionional areas of the flux, and volume V =2 πrA, and 2\pi r = \ell_g_a_p + \ell_i_r_o_n. Rewriting, we get

L = \mu_0N^2[\frac{\mu A_i_r_o_n}{\ell_i_r_o_n}+\frac{A_g_a_p}{\ell_g_a_p}]

Agap is larger than Airon because Blongitudinal is continuous in the iron and gap, while Hparallel is continuous across the iron-gap boundary.
This leades to "refraction" and Snell's Law across the iron-gap boundary, just like light in glass.

Bob S
 
Last edited:
Bob S said:
L = \mu_0N^2[\frac{\mu A_i_r_o_n}{\ell_i_r_o_n}+\frac{A_g_a_p}{\ell_g_a_p}]

So.. If we imagine that lgap is very small, then the equation should become equal to the original toroid equation. Agap will approximately equal to Airon. So... the second term in that equation appears to blow up rather than diminish to zero as should be expected.

and yes... I had an equation that produced that mistake at some point, which I think is in part what lead me to the original problem described.
 
You are right. The correct solution is shown in the thumbnail. Basically, although

\int_C H d\ell = NI

H is not continuous around the loop C, so H≠ NI/ l. Only B is continuous. Equation (5) in the thumbnail shows the correct result.

Bob S
 

Attachments

  • Magnet_air_gap.jpg
    Magnet_air_gap.jpg
    52.6 KB · Views: 892
So... back to my original question:

Does this imply that the inductance of a solenoid, frequently quoted in textbooks, is actually wrong? as in panel 3 in my original post
 
Calculating the inductance of a solenoid with iron is very difficult, but for a magnetic circuit with a small gap like the thumbnail in my previous post, the calculation is the following. Use the relation

\frac{1}{2}LI^2=\frac{1}{2\mu\mu_0}\int_VB^2\;dV_v_o_l=\frac{1}{2\mu\mu_0}\int_VB^2\;dV_i_r_o_n+\frac{1}{2\mu_0}\int_VB^2\;dV_g_a_p

for the stored energy in the iron and a small gap, and use (from the thumbnail in my previous post)

B=\frac{\mu\mu_0NI}{\ell_i_r_o_n+\mu\ell_g_a_p}

for the magnetic field in both the iron and the gap. Here, \ell = \ell_i_r_o_n +\ell_g_a_p. Turn the crank and get an expression for the inductance L.
This does not correctly handle the fringe field in the gap for a large gap, but an adjustment in the cross sectional area in the gap should improve the accuracy.

In an air-filled solenoid, half the stored magnetic energy is inside the solenoid, and half outside. For a solenoid with the interior filled with iron, nearly all the magnetic energy is outside.

Here is the on-axis field inside a short air-filled solenoid.

http://www.netdenizen.com/emagnettest/solenoids/?solenoid

For short air-filled solenoids (single-turn loops), you should look at Smythe Static and Dynamic Electricity (Third Edition) page 339. For N turns, multiply by N2.

[added] For the integration, use V_i_r_o_n=A_i_r_o_n\ell_i_r_o_n\;\;and\;\;V_g_a_p=A_g_a_p\ell_g_a_p

For small gaps, \;\;\;A_i_r_o_n=A_g_a_p

Bob S
 
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