Solve Ideal Op Amp Question: KCL & KVL

  • Thread starter Thread starter jackstock
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Amp Op amp
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around a homework problem involving an ideal operational amplifier (op amp) and the application of Kirchhoff's Current Law (KCL) and Kirchhoff's Voltage Law (KVL). Participants explore the discrepancies in calculated currents and voltages at different nodes in the circuit.

Discussion Character

  • Homework-related
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • The initial calculations using KVL yield different results for the output voltage (Vo) depending on the node at which KCL is applied.
  • One participant suggests that the discrepancy arises because the currents I1, I2, I3, I4, and I6 do not account for additional currents from the op amp's power supply into the bottom node.
  • Another participant notes that summing currents at the inverting input is valid because there are no additional currents at that node.
  • A later reply discusses identifying where currents from the power supply may affect calculations in future problems.
  • It is mentioned that the power supply currents are injected into the circuit at the op amp's V+ and V- pins or at the reference node, which should be avoided for summing currents.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the source of the discrepancy related to the hidden currents from the power supply, but the discussion does not reach a consensus on a definitive method for identifying these currents in future problems.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include potential assumptions about circuit configurations and the specific placement of power supply connections, which may not be universally applicable.

jackstock
Messages
2
Reaction score
0

Homework Statement



aw3qew.jpg


Homework Equations



KCL & KVL.

The Attempt at a Solution



Using KVL:

-9 + 10kI1 + 6 = 0
-10 + 20kI2 + 6 = 0
12 + 30kI3 + 6 = 0
40kI4 + 6 = 0

:. I1 = 0.3mA
I2 = 0.2mA
I3 = -0.6mA
I4 = -0.15mA

Now here's where the problem is. When I take KCL at the bottom node:

I1 + I2 + I3 + I4 = I6 [the op amp is ideal so the current through the 6V source is zero]
I6 = -0.25mA

:. Vo = -0.25m*20k = -5V [which is apparently incorrect]

However, when I take KCL at the inverting input to the op amp:

I1 + I2 + I3 + I4 = I5
I5 = -0.25mA

Using KVL again:
Vo - 6 - 0.25m*100k = 0
Vo = 31V [which is apparently correct]

So my question is why do I get different answers depending on which node I take KCL at? Is there something obvious which I'm missing? Thank you in advance for your help.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
It's because I1, I2, I3, I4 and I6 are not the only currents into the bottom node. The opamp's power supply also provides a current into the bottom node. You will notice that the opamp's output absorbs (or supplies) the sum of I5 and I6, which ultimately finds its way to the power supply. So there is a current into the bottom node not shown on the schematic.

But, summing currents into the inverting input works because there are no hidden currents into that node.
 
Thank you, that makes sense. For future reference, is there a way to identify where these currents from the power supply will turn up so this doesn't happen again?
 
The power supply will be connected to the opamp V+ and V- pins (or just V+ if a single supply voltage is used) and the "hidden" currents will be injected into the circuit wherever the supply return is connected. Don't use that node (probably the reference or "ground" node) as a node for summing currents.
 

Similar threads

Replies
15
Views
3K
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
4K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
4K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
2K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
5K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
2K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
3K