Solving a Sound Wave Equation in Physics 1: Halliday, Resnick, and Krane

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around a sound wave equation from the textbook "Physics 1" by Halliday, Resnick, and Krane. Participants are attempting to understand the derivation of a specific equation related to sound waves, focusing on differentiation and the relationships between mass, volume, and density.

Discussion Character

  • Homework-related
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion about the derivation of an equation related to sound waves, specifically how to transition from one equation to another.
  • Several participants discuss the process of differentiation, with some suggesting different interpretations of how to apply it to the problem.
  • There are attempts to clarify the relationship between mass, volume, and density, with one participant proposing that the derivative of density with respect to volume can be expressed in terms of mass.
  • One participant acknowledges a misunderstanding regarding the implications of a mathematical relationship, stating that a certain assumption about derivatives was incorrect.
  • Another participant provides a basic explanation of derivatives, emphasizing the concept of differentials and their roles in calculus.
  • Finally, a participant successfully derives the relationship between density and volume, confirming that the derivative of density with respect to volume yields a specific expression involving mass.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

The discussion includes multiple competing views on the application of differentiation and the relationships between the variables involved. There is no consensus reached on the initial confusion regarding the derivation, though some participants clarify their understanding of derivatives.

Contextual Notes

Participants express varying levels of familiarity with calculus concepts, which may influence their interpretations and approaches to the problem. The discussion reflects a range of assumptions about mathematical relationships and the application of differentiation.

Afo
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Homework Statement:: This is from 5 ed, Physics 1Halliday, Resnick, and Krane. page 428 about sound waves

I have highlighted the equation that I don't understand. How did the author get it? I understand how they get from the middle side to the RHS of the equation, but I don't understand how they get from the first equation to the middle equation.

I don't have any problem with anything before.
Relevant Equations:: Density: Rho = Mass / Volume

1639119782840.png
 
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Differentiation.
 
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Orodruin said:
Differentiation.
Is it like this?

dm/dv^2 = - m /(V^2)
so
dp = dm/dv = dv * (-m/(V^2))
 
No. Use ##\Delta y/\Delta x \simeq dy/dx##
 
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Orodruin said:
No. Use ##\Delta y/\Delta x \simeq dy/dx##

Like this?
##d\rho = \frac{\Delta \rho}{\Delta V}dV##
but ##\frac{\Delta \rho}{\Delta V} = -\frac{m}{V^2}##
 
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Afo said:
Is it like this?

dm/dv^2 = - m /(V^2)
so
dp = dm/dv = dv * (-m/(V^2))
Okay, I know why this is false.
It doesn't work since ##\frac{a}{b} = \frac{c}{d}## doesn't imply ## \frac{a}{b^2} = \frac{c}{d^2}.## If that was true, that would mean ##|dV| = |V|## which is obviously false.
 
Do you know how a derivative works?
 
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Orodruin said:
Do you know how a derivative works?
I am still in high school so this is what I know:

1. We can view ##\frac{d}{dx}## as an operator so ##\frac{d}{dx}f(x) = \frac{df}{dx}## is the derivative of ##f## w.r.t. ##x##.

Another way is to view it in terms of differentials:
2. ##dx## and ##dy## are called differentials. The differential ##dx## is an independent variable. The differential ##dy## is defined to be ##dy = f'(x) dx##

Both ways are rigorous.
 
So, let ##x = V##, ##y = \rho(V)## and use 2 to relate ##d\rho## to ##dV##.
 
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Orodruin said:
So, let ##x = V##, ##y = \rho(V)## and use 2 to relate ##d\rho## to ##dV##.
:doh:Ok, I got it!

##\rho(V) = \frac{m}{V}## is a function of volume and ##m## is a constant.

Thus ##\frac{d}{dV} \rho(V) = \frac{d}{dV} \frac{m}{V} = m\frac{d}{dV} \frac{1}{V} = -\frac{m}{V^2}##
 
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