Solving the Mystery of Entropy

  • Thread starter Thread starter martix
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Entropy Mystery
AI Thread Summary
Entropy is a challenging concept that often leads to confusion, particularly regarding the conservation of energy and irreversible processes. While some energy is lost as heat during transformations, it is not destroyed; rather, it becomes "useless" energy that cannot be recovered. The total energy in a closed system remains conserved, but useful energy inevitably converts to heat. Entropy is tied to the probability of a system's state, and its mathematical representation often uses logarithms for simplicity. Ultimately, energy is dissipated, not annihilated, and understanding entropy requires recognizing its local significance rather than attempting to apply it universally.
martix
Messages
167
Reaction score
5
I've always found entropy a hard concept to grasp. Some time I read something that seems to make it more clear, then another time I read something else which completely disturbs my understanding of the idea.

My current problem with entropy is the violation of the the conservation laws. And the fact that there exist actually irreversible processes.
I read this wiki article that states that "During [state] transformation, there will be a certain amount of heat energy loss or dissipation due to intermolecular friction and collisions; energy that will not be recoverable if the process is reversed."
But that would mean energy loss and if taken on scale of the whole universe it means that energy is destroyed...
Explain please.
 
Science news on Phys.org
That statement does not mean that energy is "destroyed"; it merely says that some of the energy after the transformation is in the form of heat (which is just "useless" energy).

The total energy of a closed system is always conserved; but whenever we use some of energy to do something useful some of that energy -regardless if it is electrical, chemical etc- will always be converted to heat.
 
martix said:
My current problem with entropy is the violation of the the conservation laws. And the fact that there exist actually irreversible processes.

The concept of entropy is consistent with local reversible processes.

=[PLAIN]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreversibility]this[/URL] wiki article that states that "During [state] transformation, there will be a certain amount of heat energy loss or dissipation due to intermolecular friction and collisions; energy that will not be recoverable if the process is reversed."
But that would mean energy loss and if taken on scale of the whole universe it means that energy is destroyed...
Explain please.

Entropy is based on the probability that a given state of a system can exist out of n possibilities. So if each state is equally probable, the probability of a given (observed) state is 1/n. This is usually expressed as the logarithmic function of p: S= -k ln(p) where k is a constant. In the thermodynamic case k is usually the Boltzmann constant. (In information theory the constant is usually 1 and the log base is 2). Entropy only has meaning (in the opinion of many) locally. Afaik modern physical theory doesn't attempt to describe the entropy of the whole universe.

In any case, energy is not destroyed. It's simply dissipated as heat. It may not be recoverable, but it is not destroyed.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
SW VandeCarr did a good job of explaining it - I just wanted to add that if taking the logarithm of the number of accessible states seems mysterious, it is only done because it makes a lot of other math work out nicely. If you wanted to, you could define entropy as the number of accessible states (instead of the logarithm of it), but your math would end up being a lot uglier. Physically, though, the results would be identical.
 
I was watching a Khan Academy video on entropy called: Reconciling thermodynamic and state definitions of entropy. So in the video it says: Let's say I have a container. And in that container, I have gas particles and they're bouncing around like gas particles tend to do, creating some pressure on the container of a certain volume. And let's say I have n particles. Now, each of these particles could be in x different states. Now, if each of them can be in x different states, how many total...
Thread 'Why work is PdV and not (P+dP)dV in an isothermal process?'
Let's say we have a cylinder of volume V1 with a frictionless movable piston and some gas trapped inside with pressure P1 and temperature T1. On top of the piston lay some small pebbles that add weight and essentially create the pressure P1. Also the system is inside a reservoir of water that keeps its temperature constant at T1. The system is in equilibrium at V1, P1, T1. Now let's say i put another very small pebble on top of the piston (0,00001kg) and after some seconds the system...
Back
Top