Sound waves propagated as transverse waves

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the nature of sound waves and their propagation, specifically addressing why sound waves cannot be propagated as transverse waves in gases while they can in solids. Participants explore the definitions and properties of sound waves, shear forces, and the molecular behavior of gases and solids.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question the assertion that sound waves cannot be transverse, citing their textbook as a source of this claim.
  • It is noted that sound waves in gases cannot support transverse waves because gases are not resistant to shear forces.
  • Participants discuss the properties of molecules in gases and solids, with some emphasizing that sound waves in solids can be transverse due to the regular arrangement of molecules.
  • There is a suggestion to consider the forces involved in wave propagation, particularly in relation to how transverse waves operate in a medium like a string.
  • Some participants express confusion regarding the concept of shear forces and their relevance to the propagation of sound waves.
  • A participant provides an explanation contrasting the behavior of particles in fluids versus solids, highlighting how vibrations can lead to different types of wave propagation.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

There is no consensus on the initial claim regarding the propagation of sound waves as transverse waves. Participants present competing views and explanations, leading to an unresolved discussion on the topic.

Contextual Notes

Some participants indicate that the discussion may involve classwork or homework, suggesting a need for deeper exploration of concepts like shear forces and the behavior of molecules in different states of matter.

koat
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hello
can somebody tell me why sound waves can't be propagated as transverse waves?
thanks in advance
 
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koat said:
hello
can somebody tell me why sound waves can't be propagated as transverse waves?
thanks in advance

Welcome to the PF. Tell us your thoughts on the question. What is sound? What kind of waves generally propagate sound? What kind of things are propagated by transverse waves? Can you see anything at the molecular level (in air or water or solids) that would affect how sound is transmitted?

EDIT -- this sounds a bit like schoolwork, so you need to show some effort at helping to figure out the explanation.
 
Who said they can't?
 
Studiot said:
Who said they can't?

my textbook
 
berkeman said:
Welcome to the PF. Tell us your thoughts on the question. What is sound? What kind of waves generally propagate sound? What kind of things are propagated by transverse waves? Can you see anything at the molecular level (in air or water or solids) that would affect how sound is transmitted?

EDIT -- this sounds a bit like schoolwork, so you need to show some effort at helping to figure out the explanation.

I have no idea :(
I just know that water waves and waves in the em spectrum are transverse waves
 
Think about how a transverse wave propagates. For this example, don't worry about EM waves (which propagate differently than sound), just consider transverse waves moving down a string as you oscillate one end of the string up and down. What force makes the string as a whole propagate the wave? Why is it that when I pull up on one side of the string, other pieces of the string also move up?

Is this force present in air?
 
koat said:
my textbook

if that's true, your textbook is using a restricted definition of sound waves.
 
Sound waves in a gas cannot support transverse waves. This is because a gas is not resistant to shear forces. berkeman asked about molecules. What are the properties of molecules in a gas, and what is shear force?

Sound waves in a solid can be transverse waves.
 
  • #10
Phrak said:
Sound waves in a gas cannot support transverse waves. This is because a gas is not resistant to shear forces. berkeman asked about molecules. What are the properties of molecules in a gas, and what is shear force?

Sound waves in a solid can be transverse waves.

In a gas the molecules are further apart than in solid.
But I don't understand why there are transverse waves in the solids...
 
  • #11
Phrak said:
Sound waves in a gas cannot support transverse waves. This is because a gas is not resistant to shear forces. berkeman asked about molecules. What are the properties of molecules in a gas, and what is shear force?

Sound waves in a solid can be transverse waves.

why is gas not resistant to shear forces?:confused:
 
  • #12
koat said:
why is gas not resistant to shear forces?:confused:

This is a classwork question so you have to do some work first. What is a shear force?
 
  • #13
Phrak said:
This is a classwork question so you have to do some work first. What is a shear force?

is it a force that pushes something?
 
  • #14
But I don't understand why there are transverse waves in the solids

Recently the people of Haiti and Chile called them earthquakes. They are all too real.

Did you read my linked thread?

If you don't understand the difference between shear and normal force then try this explanation.

In a fluid (liquid or gas) the particles are distributed at random as in my first sketch. They can move freely in any direction and there will be local 'clumps' where the molecular density is temporarily higher or lower than average.
A pressure or longitudinal wave is nothing more than organising these clumps to form a regular pattern of higher and lower density (pressure).

In a solid there is a regular array and the molecules are not free to move about. Instead they can 'vibrate' about their mean positions, as dictated by the bonds with their immediate neighbours.
Vibration along the bonds axes is energetically preferred.

So if we can organise a wavetrain of vibrations to pass down the array it can be either longitudinal or transverse as shown.
 

Attachments

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  • #15
koat said:
is it a force that pushes something?

Search on "shear wave" and there will be a Wikipedia article. Go to the article. The first animated picture is a shear wave.

Note, it might look like a the waves on the surface of water, but all the motion is in the plane of your video monitor. The motion of the grid is perpendicular to the direction the wave propagates.
 

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