Steam Power Plants and the Second Law of Thermodynamics

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the operation of steam power plants in relation to the second law of thermodynamics. Participants explore the efficiency of steam cycles, the potential for recovering waste heat, and the implications of modifying traditional processes within steam power systems.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant describes the basic operation of a steam power plant and raises a question about the efficiency of condensing low temperature low pressure steam back into water, suggesting that this process wastes latent heat.
  • Another participant counters that while some latent heat could be recovered by directly pumping low temperature steam back to the boiler, the volume difference between steam and condensate would require significantly larger pumps, potentially negating the benefits.
  • A later reply encourages participants to perform calculations on a sample system to explore the proposed modifications, emphasizing the importance of modeling in resolving uncertainties.
  • One participant suggests revisiting the Carnot Cycle as a fundamental concept that might provide additional insights into the discussion.
  • Several participants express appreciation for the information shared, indicating that it aligns with their inquiries or interests.
  • There are mentions of intuitive analogies related to the work involved in pumping compressible fluids, which some participants find helpful in understanding the concepts discussed.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the feasibility and efficiency of modifying steam power cycles to recover waste heat. There is no consensus on the proposed approach or its implications.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference the complexities of thermodynamic cycles and the challenges associated with modifying established processes. There are unresolved mathematical considerations regarding the efficiency of the proposed changes.

Who May Find This Useful

Individuals interested in thermodynamics, engineering principles related to heat engines, and those exploring innovative approaches to improving energy efficiency in power generation may find this discussion relevant.

Soumalya
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We know that a steam power plant is basically a heat engine with steam as the working fluid.

According to the second law of thermodynamics a heat engine must operate between two thermal energy reservoirs one at a higher temperature(source) than the other(sink) to produce net work in a thermodynamic cycle.

In a basic steam power cycle,heat received from burning fuel in a furnace is utilized to convert water into high temperature and high pressure steam,which when passes through blades of a turbine produces shaft work with low pressure low temperature steam leaving the turbine exit.The low temperature low pressure steam is then made to reject heat in a condenser before it is pumped back into the boiler for another cycle of operation.

While it is understandable that the low temperature low pressure steam must be condensed to the state of liquid water initially fed into the boiler to complete a thermodynamic cycle in doing so we are basically wasting the latent heat condensation of water along with the sensible heat required to manufacture high temperature high pressure steam from liquid water again in the boiler!

What if the low temperature low pressure steam from the turbine exit was directly pumped to the boiler such that less fuel would be required to restore high temperature high pressure steam at the turbine inlet thus recovering the waste heat as mentioned?
 
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The volume of steam exhausting from the turbine is about 1000 times the volume of condensate coming out of the condenser. This means a vapor pump must be this much bigger than a condensate pump, and require a proportionately larger amount of power to drive it. You might recover some of the latent heat which is lost condensing the steam, but this recovered energy could not be turned into useful output work from the plant as a whole.
 
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Soumalya said:
We know that a steam power plant is basically a heat engine with steam as the working fluid.

According to the second law of thermodynamics a heat engine must operate between two thermal energy reservoirs one at a higher temperature(source) than the other(sink) to produce net work in a thermodynamic cycle.

In a basic steam power cycle,heat received from burning fuel in a furnace is utilized to convert water into high temperature and high pressure steam,which when passes through blades of a turbine produces shaft work with low pressure low temperature steam leaving the turbine exit.The low temperature low pressure steam is then made to reject heat in a condenser before it is pumped back into the boiler for another cycle of operation.

While it is understandable that the low temperature low pressure steam must be condensed to the state of liquid water initially fed into the boiler to complete a thermodynamic cycle in doing so we are basically wasting the latent heat condensation of water along with the sensible heat required to manufacture high temperature high pressure steam from liquid water again in the boiler!

What if the low temperature low pressure steam from the turbine exit was directly pumped to the boiler such that less fuel would be required to restore high temperature high pressure steam at the turbine inlet thus recovering the waste heat as mentioned?

You don't need us to help you address this question. Just do some calculations to see how the scenario you are describing would play out. Do it on a sample system, by defining the operating conditions at the end of each step. This is how modeling can help you resolve uncertainties and doubts. (First, of course, to get your feet wet, do the calculations for a standard steam engine cycle).

Chet
 
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This is the answer I was looking for and I am glad I came across it :smile:
 

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Soumalya said:
This is the answer I was looking for and I am glad I came across it :smile:

Which book is it from?
 
Jano L. said:
Which book is it from?

"Thermodynamics:An Engineering Approach" by Yunus A. Cengel and Michael A. Boles
 
How to make it intuitive:...

if you've ever pumped up a bicycle or automobile tire with an old fashioned hand pump you know how much work it takes to pump a compressible fluid.
 
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jim hardy said:
How to make it intuitive:...

if you've ever pumped up a bicycle or automobile tire with an old fashioned hand pump you know how much work it takes to pump a compressible fluid.

Very well said!
 

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