Engineering Still Struggling finding a data science job

[EngWiPy]

Hello,

After more than 18 months of applying for jobs in my field (Ph.D. in Electrical Engineering/Wireless Communication) and in others (e.g., Data Science), in my country of origin, the country of graduation and residency (Canada), and other countries, I still haven't been called for any technical interview. I don't have experience, but I think I have some qualifications that I can build upon. So, the question is why I am not being considered?

I feel that the Data Science field is very competitive, because it seems that all people try to get in because of the hype around it, and I have little to no chance there in this wave, although I have been developing some related skills in Python and did some personal projects. Also, in my experience people are not willing to connect with me, maybe because I don't have much to offer in that area. One senior data scientist was nice enough to meet with me to edit my resume to look appealing for data science positions, but that was about it.

Currently, I am holding a short-term research position, but it will end in few months. I need to do something to land a job. I am thinking to get some certificate that may help me. I am thinking of three options:

1- Getting a master degree in computer science.
2- Getting a certificate in data science from a continuing education program from a local university.
3- Getting a certificate in networking, like CCNA.

Which one is better? I care about how much time it takes, and how much money it costs, but I also care if it will pay off when I finish.

What do you think? If you have any other suggestion, I am all ears.

Thanks in advance

 

[Stephen Tashi]

1- Getting a master degree in computer science.
2- Getting a certificate in data science from a continuing education program from a local university.
3- Getting a certificate in networking, like CCNA.

Which one is better?

In your search for jobs, did you see job descriptions that wanted 1,2, or 3 ?

 

[EngWiPy]

In your search for jobs, did you see job descriptions that wanted 1,2, or 3 ?

I saw some descriptions that want 1 and 3, but for 2 they ask about the skills taught during the program, not the certificate itself.

 

[Locrian]

Of the three, I think #2 is the least likely to result in a job, as those types of certificates aren't highly regarded*. The experience they gave you could be beneficial, but frankly you should be able to look through the curriculum and pull those ideas out for yourself.

In general, the demand for people with a deep understanding of statistics and machine learning, combined with some programming skills, is extremely high. The demand for people who learned a little pandas and used a few sci-kit learn classes is extremely low. The question is - are you the first being misconstrued as the second? Or are you closer to the second? If it's the first, then you need to fix your resume (more, or again). If it's the second, then either you need to really amp up your personal projects, or you need a masters/phd in stats with a focus in machine learning.The networking bit is really different. I'm not sure what your motivation is to go that route, but unless it's something you've been working with in your spare time, it seems pretty strange. After all, there are a lot of technical certifications out there - so why that one? Have you consider any AWS certs? Have you looked at IT jobs? In general, life in IT seems like hell, so it's not my first suggestion, but it's a lot better than unemployment, and could lead to other good places.

*"Least likely" doesn't mean zero! So if it's free, why not?

 

[EngWiPy]

The second option is not free. I didn't know there is a certificate in AWS. How is this better than say CCNA?Is it more in demand? Will I find a better job once I finish it?

I have deep enough understanding of statistics and some programming skills. But the problem I think is that my statistical background is encapsulated within another field than statistics, and maybe recruiters don't believe me when I say in my resume that I know statistics, with a degree in Electrical Engineering (as an example, someone told me to find a job in electrical companies!).

The networking bit is to go around HR recruiters who might have been filtering out my resume based on a list of words they search for, and overlooking the potentiality part.

What example are there for IT jobs?

 

[Locrian]

The second option is not free. I didn't know there is a certificate in AWS.

There are at least ten! [edit: make that eight, I double counted!]

How is this better than say CCNA?Is it more in demand? Will I find a better job once I finish it?

It's not better, that's a complicated word. But devops definitely fits more with a statistics/programming/data science background. The statistical modeling is often (usually!) the smallest part of the solution. Social processes such as presenting the solution, getting buy in from customers, etc. are a big part. But AWS knowledge would help with another major component: Preparing the data sources, creating the environment you'll be working in, and deploying the solution. That's a lot of important work right there.I have no idea whether you'll find a better job or not. I just think it makes more sense. Hopefully others will give their opinions as well, as you should get some variety in voices before deciding.

 

[EngWiPy]

Is the AWS certificate well-recognized in the industry like CCNA? I mean which is likely to land me a better job without experience, and almost immediately after I finish? I am broadening my options to other areas other than data science. Data science seems interesting and all, and I am familiar with its steps and procedures, theoretically and technically, but if I cannot get a job in data science, then it is no good for me. As I said, the hype around machine learning and data science makes it very competitive.

 

[Qurks]

You need to reconsider what's going on here: you have a PhD in electrical engineering and you're looking to get associate level certs. Something is obviously very wrong with your situation, I don't know what it is.

 

[Locrian]

I think Qurks probably said what I've been thinking.

I mean, I'm trying to be helpful. But honestly, whatever is keeping you from being employed, I'd be really surprised if a CCNA (or AWS cert) will fix it by itself.

There's something else going on that we don't have access to, and I worry nothing we say will really get to the root of the problem.

 

[EngWiPy]

This is what I want to know. There is something very wrong, but I don't know what it is! I am not getting positive responses (have never reached technical interviews. All I got was 3 phone interviews since Mid 2016), for the hundreds of applications I have submitted in different areas! I don't think I am not that unqualified to do anything. How can I know what is going on? I update my resume all the time, and I doubt it is the main problem. Networking might be a problem for me, though. But is this the main reason I haven't gotten responses for my applications? I don't know.

 

[austinuni]

I would skip the idea of pursuing anything related to data science for two reasons:
1) Your education and experience is not related to that field.
2) You are not able to express a compelling reason why you would want to enter that field. "Hype" is a terrible reason to enter that field.

How does a potential employer know that you are going to stick with data science once they hire you? You are not giving them any reasons to believe you will become a good data scientist, or that you can stick with it. Maybe you try it, and find you don't like it after all, and lose motivation and quit after a few months. That's a huge risk for an employer. They already see that you are switching from studying EE to data science, so that confirms their belief that you might not stay in the field.

Your interests seem to be all over the place (data science, IT, statistics, programming). Try to focus on areas where you already have some experience, like your existing research position. There is a huge demand for people in the Wireless field (at least in the USA), so I am surprised you are not getting any interest there.

 

[EngWiPy]

I would skip the idea of pursuing anything related to data science for two reasons:
1) Your education and experience is not related to that field.
2) You are not able to express a compelling reason why you would want to enter that field. "Hype" is a terrible reason to enter that field.

How does a potential employer know that you are going to stick with data science once they hire you? You are not giving them any reasons to believe you will become a good data scientist, or that you can stick with it. Maybe you try it, and find you don't like it after all, and lose motivation and quit after a few months. That's a huge risk for an employer. They already see that you are switching from studying EE to data science, so that confirms their belief that you might not stay in the field.

Your interests seem to be all over the place (data science, IT, statistics, programming). Try to focus on areas where you already have some experience, like your existing research position. There is a huge demand for people in the Wireless field (at least in the USA), so I am surprised you are not getting any interest there.

I didn't say "hype" is the reason that I am entering data science. I rather said that the "hype around it" makes it very competitive and difficult to get in. There is a difference. I don't put "hype" as a reason to become a data scientist in my resume, and that I am interested in pursuing this path. I put courses and projects to express my interest.

I think my background (especially in statistics) fits better for data science than any other field (beside wireless communication).

People from different backgrounds such as business, biomedical engineering, and physics switch to the the field of data science, why switching from EE is perceived worse than from other fields in your view?!

Well, in Canada the wireless field is not as in the US, and I have limitations moving to the US (I need to apply from outside, which by itself reduces my chances a lot to find a sponsor to have a work permit or its equivalent in the US, ... etc).

I am interested in data science over other options. I listed the others because I am trying to find a solution to my situation, as data science hasn't worked out for me so far. The research positions are temporary.

 

[pi-r8]

I agree with what the others said- it's weird that you can't even get an interview with what I would think is a strong credential (PhD in EE/wireless communications). Getting a cert in data science or networking aren't *bad* options, but it's not like you can just wave one of those certs in front of an employer and instantly get a job offer, if that's what you're hoping for. They still have that old, annoying problem- can't get a job without experience, can't get experience without a job.

My suspicion is that something is wrong with your job hunting process. What did other people from your PhD program do for jobs? If they got jobs and you can't, that tells you something. It might be as simple as just writing your resume in a bad way. You could try showing it to a professional service, or just ask anyone you know who works in the field to take a look at it. One possible problem is that if your resume looks too "academic," employers won't know what to make of it.

Have you been applying to US jobs too? (or any other country, for that matter). Needing a sponsor does hurt, but it's not impossible.

 

[EngWiPy]

I agree with what the others said- it's weird that you can't even get an interview with what I would think is a strong credential (PhD in EE/wireless communications). Getting a cert in data science or networking aren't *bad* options, but it's not like you can just wave one of those certs in front of an employer and instantly get a job offer, if that's what you're hoping for. They still have that old, annoying problem- can't get a job without experience, can't get experience without a job.

My suspicion is that something is wrong with your job hunting process. What did other people from your PhD program do for jobs? If they got jobs and you can't, that tells you something. It might be as simple as just writing your resume in a bad way. You could try showing it to a professional service, or just ask anyone you know who works in the field to take a look at it. One possible problem is that if your resume looks too "academic," employers won't know what to make of it.

Have you been applying to US jobs too? (or any other country, for that matter). Needing a sponsor does hurt, but it's not impossible.

Thank you. I had my resume critiqued by a senior data scientist. He said he thinks I know data science from my field, but I don't know how. I edited my resume accordingly, but still not getting responses (to be completely honest, I got one phone interview after I edited it, but not sure if it was a coincidence, or because I edited it, because I applied to tens of positions after editing it, and the responses were negative if there was a response at all).

Some of the people I know are from the same department, but not necessarily in my field. One with a PhD in cloud computing, and got hired in a big company immediately. Another in image processing and computer vision, and I think his previous experience in coding has helped him get a position. The people I know in my field are still doing their postdoc. But I don't know anyone from my field in the industry.

Actually, no. I haven't tried in the US, because I imagine it would be very difficult and constraining to have a sponsor.

The senior data scientist was super nice to reply me and accept to meet me (actually he is the one who suggested to meet in person), but my experience in reaching out to have a feedback about my resume hasn't been positive. People accept your invitation to add them to your connections on LinkedIn, but they then don't reply your messages!

 

[pi-r8]

Thank you. I had my resume critiqued by a senior data scientist. He said he thinks I know data science from my field, but I don't know how. I edited my resume accordingly, but still not getting responses (to be completely honest, I got one phone interview after I edited it, but not sure if it was a coincidence, or because I edited it, because I applied to tens of positions after editing it, and the responses were negative if there was a response at all).

Some of the people I know are from the same department, but not necessarily in my field. One with a PhD in cloud computing, and got hired in a big company immediately. Another in image processing and computer vision, and I think his previous experience in coding has helped him get a position. The people I know in my field are still doing their postdoc. But I don't know anyone from my field in the industry.

Actually, no. I haven't tried in the US, because I imagine it would be very difficult and constraining to have a sponsor.

The senior data scientist was super nice to reply me and accept to meet me (actually he is the one who suggested to meet in person), but my experience in reaching out to have a feedback about my resume hasn't been positive. People accept your invitation to add them to your connections on LinkedIn, but they then don't reply your messages!

Wait a second. Data science isn't your field- it's a pretty different field. Do you know anyone who works in *electrical engineering* who could look at it?

Those people you mention from your department also sound different. cloud computing, image processing, computer vision are all more on the software/programming side. Admittedly I don't know anything about Wireless Communications, but I would have thought that would be more on the hardwire side. (Maybe I'm wrong about that? But if I'm wrong, a lot of employers might be wrong too. Something to make clear in a cover letter/resume).

You could ask your professors to connect you with previous students from your field who got jobs, or at least tell you where they got jobs. About LinkedIn- see my response in the other thread, but agreeing to a connection there barely means anything. It's easy to click yes, much harder to actually write a message or give any useful help. Still, at least you can see what kind of jobs people got.

I would think it's worth applying for jobs in the US too, assuming you're willing to move.

 

[EngWiPy]

For me, it is more in the theoretical side, not hardware. We propose system models, analyze them mathematically, and finally do simulations. People in RF engineering work more on hardware design for the antennas (they are in demand more than us). I think the title Electrical and Computer Engineering is part of the problem. People may not know how many specializations there are under than name, and it is not only about power generation, or circuit design.

I will consider applying in the US if things don't go well in the coming few months. I am willing to move if I could secure a job there.

...You could ask your professors to connect you with previous students from your field who got jobs, or at least tell you where they got jobs...

Good point. I think asking my PhD supervisor about his previous students is the best way to connect. I will try that.

Thanks

 

[StatGuy2000]

I would skip the idea of pursuing anything related to data science for two reasons:
1) Your education and experience is not related to that field.
2) You are not able to express a compelling reason why you would want to enter that field. "Hype" is a terrible reason to enter that field.

How does a potential employer know that you are going to stick with data science once they hire you? You are not giving them any reasons to believe you will become a good data scientist, or that you can stick with it. Maybe you try it, and find you don't like it after all, and lose motivation and quit after a few months. That's a huge risk for an employer. They already see that you are switching from studying EE to data science, so that confirms their belief that you might not stay in the field.

Your interests seem to be all over the place (data science, IT, statistics, programming). Try to focus on areas where you already have some experience, like your existing research position. There is a huge demand for people in the Wireless field (at least in the USA), so I am surprised you are not getting any interest there.

The situation in Canada is very different from the US in this regard -- only a handful of companies dominate the telecommunications market (Rogers, Bell, and Telus being the big 3), thus limiting the number of positions open for wireless communications. Furthermore, there is little research in wireless communications outside of academia in Canada (unlike in the US).

Data science, on the other hand, is a growing field in Canada (particularly in larger cities like Toronto and Montreal), so I can see why @EngWiPy would focus in those areas.

 

[pi-r8]

Data science, on the other hand, is a growing field in Canada (particularly in larger cities like Toronto and Montreal), so I can see why @EngWiPy would focus in those areas.

The problem is, it's also a field that lots and lots of other people are trying to get into. You've got competition from experienced programmers, statisticians, and data analysts all trying to get a piece of the pie, not to mention people that actually got specialized degrees focused on ML and/or data science. Like Locrian said, what they really want are people who experts in statistics, programming, *and* ML, not just one of those fields with a smattering of the others. The usual advice I've seen is to spend a long time both learning the field and also building up an impressive portfolio of personal projects.

 

[Qurks]

"Data science" degree I think is a euphemism for a watered down statistics degree with a programming course and an applied ML course. I'm actually a bit curious why programming is considered so important for ML since ML is usually orthogonal to most typical programming. Also most stats people don't do ML, at least where I am.

I actually would say the most technically rigorous is probably in the EE department, the CS machine learning students I have seen are kind of incompetent and bad at math.

 

[austinuni]

People from different backgrounds such as business, biomedical engineering, and physics switch to the the field of data science, why switching from EE is perceived worse than from other fields in your view?!

Switching from EE to data science is not worse than switching from those other backgrounds. But just because those other people switched doesn't mean that you will be able to do the same just as easily. Maybe they caught a lucky break, or they had some prior work experience in the field, or people already working in the industry told them about an unadvertised position at their company. Maybe they were like this guy who did a lot of open source work in the field, after switching from pursuing a degree in biology.

You have to look at this from an employer's perspective. Why would they hire you for a data science position over somebody else? They are probably getting hundreds of resumes for a single position. The other applicants might already have work experience in the field, they might have taken a greater number of relevant courses than you, and they may have completed independent data science projects/papers which are out on the web for employers to look at (e.g. github.com or similar web sites), and they may have taken MOOCs and have had some track record there (e.g. perhaps something like this). Ask yourself, what can I do to compete against those people?

I think you ought to figure out what your strengths are, what you enjoy doing, and what prior experience you bring to the table, and devote all of your energies towards pursuing employment in that particular field. It may be data science, it may be something else. But jumping around to a lot of different fields is not going to work, IMO.

 

[StatGuy2000]

The problem is, it's also a field that lots and lots of other people are trying to get into. You've got competition from experienced programmers, statisticians, and data analysts all trying to get a piece of the pie, not to mention people that actually got specialized degrees focused on ML and/or data science. Like Locrian said, what they really want are people who experts in statistics, programming, *and* ML, not just one of those fields with a smattering of the others. The usual advice I've seen is to spend a long time both learning the field and also building up an impressive portfolio of personal projects.

The thing is, when it comes to many STEM fields, virtually all positions in Canada have lots of other people trying to get into them. So this isn't especially unique to data science. The OP is trying to determine what he can do to increase the probability that he can land a position outside academia.

I have already explained why wireless communication is (if not a dead end), very difficult to break into in Canada. So why not try to have him pursue areas where jobs are actually advertised (even if there is competition)?

 

[EngWiPy]

Switching from EE to data science is not worse than switching from those other backgrounds. But just because those other people switched doesn't mean that you will be able to do the same just as easily. Maybe they caught a lucky break, or they had some prior work experience in the field, or people already working in the industry told them about an unadvertised position at their company. Maybe they were like this guy who did a lot of open source work in the field, after switching from pursuing a degree in biology.

You have to look at this from an employer's perspective. Why would they hire you for a data science position over somebody else? They are probably getting hundreds of resumes for a single position. The other applicants might already have work experience in the field, they might have taken a greater number of relevant courses than you, and they may have completed independent data science projects/papers which are out on the web for employers to look at (e.g. github.com or similar web sites), and they may have taken MOOCs and have had some track record there (e.g. perhaps something like this). Ask yourself, what can I do to compete against those people?

I think you ought to figure out what your strengths are, what you enjoy doing, and what prior experience you bring to the table, and devote all of your energies towards pursuing employment in that particular field. It may be data science, it may be something else. But jumping around to a lot of different fields is not going to work, IMO.

As far as I know, there is no major in data science, and data scientists come from a variety of backgrounds. The rest of your post makes more sense; I need to compete with others and show what I can do that makes me stand relative to others. But still, I think not being considered at all (even for junior positions) with my background, signals something else going on, and I am not sure what it is.

 

[austinuni]

The situation in Canada is very different from the US in this regard -- only a handful of companies dominate the telecommunications market (Rogers, Bell, and Telus being the big 3), thus limiting the number of positions open for wireless communications. Furthermore, there is little research in wireless communications outside of academia in Canada (unlike in the US).

Why restrict the job search to telco companies in Canada? (The situation with respect to telco companies is the same in the USA).

Surely there must be some semiconductor companies (ex: Intel), equipment manufacturers (ex: Ericsson), government agencies, and consulting firms that could use the skills and experience of the OP in the wireless field, even if it tends more to the theoretical side. Figure out what practical skills you have or can learn reasonably well, find companies that need those skills, and go apply for open positions at those companies. Try to find people inside those companies who can refer you to open positions (they often get bonuses for finding candidates).

When I was a graduate student and looking for a job, my chosen field was largely theoretical in nature (queuing theory), but I had some related practical knowledge in C programming, simulation, performance evaluation, and computer architecture which I was able to use to land a position in industry.

 

[Qurks]

Most jobs in the US related to communications require security clearance, so citizenship. At least that's nearly all of the jobs related to communications/signal processing in the US when searched*.

 

[pi-r8]

The thing is, when it comes to many STEM fields, virtually all positions in Canada have lots of other people trying to get into them. So this isn't especially unique to data science. The OP is trying to determine what he can do to increase the probability that he can land a position outside academia.

I have already explained why wireless communication is (if not a dead end), very difficult to break into in Canada. So why not try to have him pursue where jobs are actually advertised (even if there is competition)?

My impression is that it's simply worse in Data Science than in most other STEM fields. Admittedly I don't have any actual numbers to back that up, it's just my impression from reading about the field. It's easy for companies to hype it up like "the future is here! Artificial Intelligence!" and it's vague enough that anyone with anyone with any sort of STEM degree is kinda-sorta- qualified. Basically I agree with what the OP said:

I feel that the Data Science field is very competitive, because it seems that all people try to get in because of the hype around it, and I have little to no chance there in this wave, although I have been developing some related skills in Python and did some personal projects. Also, in my experience people are not willing to connect with me, maybe because I don't have much to offer in that area. One senior data scientist was nice enough to meet with me to edit my resume to look appealing for data science positions, but that was about it.

For someone who already had a job and was thinking about trying to make a career switch, or a student thinking about a potential future career, I think DS could be fine. But it sounds like there's a lot of time pressure here- he wants to find a job ASAP. Trying to learn and break into a highly competitive field takes time.

To try and be constructive- he might have success getting a data *analyst* job. I think he would meet the requirements for a lot of those jobs. Kind of seems like a waste of a PhD though...

I have to ask- why is the Canadian government these highly specialized PhD programs in dead-end fields? Surely there could be a better way to use smart, dedicated students and 4+ years of funding.

 

[StatGuy2000]

Why restrict the job search to telco companies in Canada? (The situation with respect to telco companies is the same in the USA).

Surely there must be some semiconductor companies (ex: Intel), equipment manufacturers (ex: Ericsson), government agencies, and consulting firms that could use the skills and experience of the OP in the wireless field, even if it tends more to the theoretical side. Figure out what practical skills you have or can learn reasonably well, find companies that need those skills, and go apply for open positions at those companies. Try to find people inside those companies who can refer you to open positions (they often get bonuses for finding candidates).

When I was a graduate student and looking for a job, my chosen field was largely theoretical in nature (queuing theory), but I had some related practical knowledge in C programming, simulation, performance evaluation, and computer architecture which I was able to use to land a position in industry.

As far as I understand, there is very little to no semiconductor companies like Intel with production capabilities in Canada. Equipment manufacturers are few and far between, and I'm not aware of too many jobs available through government agencies or consulting firms in the wireless field in Canada.

My impression is that wireless communication is probably the least employable field within electrical engineering (EE) in Canada -- from what I know from my friends in EE, more lucrative areas would be in robotics, systems control, power generation, or optics/photonics. I personally also suspect that within the engineering discipline, there are far more positions available in either mechanical (especially in Quebec with a vibrant aerospace sector) or civil engineering than in electrical, although I don't have data to back this up.

 

[EngWiPy]

OK, let me ask this question, which I asked a long time ago, the feedback of which has led me to the data science route (maybe I can get other views now): my background covers the theory of tele/wirelss communications, signal processing, and statistical theory with programming skills mainly in MATLAB and Python (I have learned Python for data science, and thus only learned the things that are used there. This is to say that I am not a Python programmer to pursue jobs as such). I don't have any previous practical experience that could help me here in any domain. All I have is my research experience. What options are there for me? What jobs I can apply for other than in my field? Otherwise, what can I do (like take courses, do internships, get certificates, ... etc) in the next 6 months to improve my chances to land a job?

I was wondering how undergraduate EE students find jobs as fresh graduates, but I think undergraduate students in EE, unlike PhD students in tele/wireless communication special programs, are exposed to a wider range of topics in different specializations, which may help them land junior positions.

I would do data analyst. I applied to many positions there as well, with the same result.

 

[austinuni]

My impression is that wireless communication is probably the least employable field within electrical engineering (EE) in Canada -- from what I know from my friends in EE, more lucrative areas would be in robotics, systems control, power generation, or optics/photonics. I personally also suspect that within the engineering discipline, there are far more positions available in either mechanical (especially in Quebec with a vibrant aerospace sector) or civil engineering than in electrical, although I don't have data to back this up.

It took me just a few minutes searching on LinkedIn to find an entry-level position with Ericsson in Canada doing wireless verification:
https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/search/?currentJobId=688171644&keywords=wireless&location=Canada

Here are the qualifications, which are pretty basic:

• An academic background in science or engineering
• Knowledge or keen interest in wireless communication (4G/5G)
• Desire to work with new and emerging technologies
• Excellent analytical and problem solving/troubleshooting skills
• Self-motivator that works well under pressure
• Effective communication skills, both verbal and written

I got 2422 hits for searching on the term "wireless" in Canada, though of course some of these jobs require a lot of experience and some might not be classified correctly. I was able to get hits by searching on Python, MATLAB, and by combining these two with wireless.

Now the OP may not be qualified for a lot of these jobs right now, but at least it's a starting point to understand what skills these
companies are looking for, so the OP can start work on gaining these skills in some manner.

 

[CrysPhys]

It took me just a few minutes searching on LinkedIn to find an entry-level position with Ericsson in Canada doing wireless verification:
https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/search/?currentJobId=688171644&keywords=wireless&location=Canada

Here are the qualifications, which are pretty basic:

• An academic background in science or engineering
• Knowledge or keen interest in wireless communication (4G/5G)
• Desire to work with new and emerging technologies
• Excellent analytical and problem solving/troubleshooting skills
• Self-motivator that works well under pressure
• Effective communication skills, both verbal and written

I got 2422 hits for searching on the term "wireless" in Canada, though of course some of these jobs require a lot of experience and some might not be classified correctly. I was able to get hits by searching on Python, MATLAB, and by combining these two with wireless.

Now the OP may not be qualified for a lot of these jobs right now, but at least it's a starting point to understand what skills these
companies are looking for, so the OP can start work on gaining these skills in some manner.

Hey, it doesn't hurt to apply. But just a word of caution. An applicant can be rejected for not having sufficient educational background and experience. That's easy to understand. What's more subtle, though, is that an applicant can be rejected for having too much educational background and experience: a hiring manager will likely be suspicious of a PhD EE (plus postdocs) applying for an entry-level position. This is a quandary that crops up often: a lawyer can't find openings for lawyers, but does find openings for paralegals; or a research scientist can't find openings for research scientists, but does find openings for lab technicians. "Stepping down" often doesn't work out either for the employee or the employer.

 

[Qurks]

FYI you can always not put down your more advanced degree and if someone ask say you worked for the university as an assistant during that time period. Once you're hired it's unlikely they will fire you if they find out.

 

[CrysPhys]

FYI you can always not put down your more advanced degree and if someone ask say you worked for the university as an assistant during that time period. Once you're hired it's unlikely they will fire you if they find out.

My personal recommendation is to not intentionally fudge your resume to hide relevant information.

 

[austinuni]

FYI you can always not put down your more advanced degree and if someone ask say you worked for the university as an assistant during that time period. Once you're hired it's unlikely they will fire you if they find out.

That's a terrible idea. They are going to check before hiring.

I've worked directly with at least three different EE/CE/CS PhDs who worked normal jobs in industry (one with teaching experience), and I only heard of one case of being called over-qualified, and I think that was due to age (too old). I've seen lots of companies say they want MS or PhD entry-level graduates in EE/CE/CS.

 

[EngWiPy]

It took me just a few minutes searching on LinkedIn to find an entry-level position with Ericsson in Canada doing wireless verification:
https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/search/?currentJobId=688171644&keywords=wireless&location=Canada

Here are the qualifications, which are pretty basic:

• An academic background in science or engineering
• Knowledge or keen interest in wireless communication (4G/5G)
• Desire to work with new and emerging technologies
• Excellent analytical and problem solving/troubleshooting skills
• Self-motivator that works well under pressure
• Effective communication skills, both verbal and written

I got 2422 hits for searching on the term "wireless" in Canada, though of course some of these jobs require a lot of experience and some might not be classified correctly. I was able to get hits by searching on Python, MATLAB, and by combining these two with wireless.

Now the OP may not be qualified for a lot of these jobs right now, but at least it's a starting point to understand what skills these
companies are looking for, so the OP can start work on gaining these skills in some manner.

I apply to all these positions in wireless communication where I can fit. They are very few at a given time, though. This is what we have been saying. Searching LinkedIn for general words like "wireless" doesn't give good results. Examples of searching the word wireless in Canada: Wireless Software Developer, RF Wireless Field Technician, Wireless Sales Associate ... etc. These are not in wireless communication. Besides some of these results have been there for weeks or even months, which means they most likely have been filled. The same goes for MATLAB and Python. These are too generic and mean nothing without a context where they can be applied.

 

[EngWiPy]

...a hiring manager will likely be suspicious of a PhD EE (plus postdocs) applying for an entry-level position. This is a quandary that crops up often...

I am sorry, I didn't understand this part, what a hiring manager would be suspicious of in this case?

 

[CrysPhys]

I am sorry, I didn't understand this part, what a hiring manager would be suspicious of in this case?

If a position can be filled by someone with, e.g., an associate's degree or BS, a hiring manager would naturally be suspicious if someone with a PhD applies for it. Why is he applying for a lower-level position? Perhaps needs some short-term income until something better comes along? Perhaps some more serious problem? If your resume is in a pile of a hundred or so, the hiring manager will likely not spend any time tracking down the why.

 

[CrysPhys]

Most jobs in the US related to communications require security clearance, so citizenship. At least that's nearly all of the jobs related to communications/signal processing in the US when searched*.

I don't know where you're getting this info from, but it's just not true (I worked in various areas of telcom R&D in the US for 20+ yrs). Some jobs do require security clearance (e.g., for military and government clients), but most? No.

 

[CrysPhys]

I have to ask- why is the Canadian government these highly specialized PhD programs in dead-end fields? Surely there could be a better way to use smart, dedicated students and 4+ years of funding.

That's not a fair question. A PhD program is not necessarily a means to land a job. You could similarly ask why are there PhD programs in string theory (anywhere).

 

[Qurks]

I don't know where you're getting this info from, but it's just not true (I worked in various areas of telcom R&D in the US for 20+ yrs). Some jobs do require security clearance (e.g., for military and government clients), but most? No.

Well if you look at indeed, a majority say they need clearance. Even the consumer 5g stuff is considered sensitive.

 

[russ_watters]

This is what I want to know. There is something very wrong, but I don't know what it is!

Do you have people close to you, that you trust, who you can ask this question to? Classmates, professors/advisors?

There is something just...off...about what we are seeing from you here. I can't put my finger on what it is exactly, but it is quite possible this issue is coming through in your interactions with others and approach to your job search.

In the US anyway, the unemployment rate is about as low as it ever gets (not sure about Canada). I would think you should be able to walk down a city street holding a sign that says "PhD Electrical Engineer" and have people fighting each other to offer you a job. Seriously, if you are qualified for the jobs you are applying for (you may not be) your job search should take days to weeks, not months to years.

I don't think I am not that unqualified to do anything.

That's four negatives/hedges in one short sentence. It makes it sound like rationalization. Are you being honest with yourself about whether you are a fit for the jobs you are applying for?

Do you have a portfolio?

 

[symbolipoint]

FYI you can always not put down your more advanced degree and if someone ask say you worked for the university as an assistant during that time period. Once you're hired it's unlikely they will fire you if they find out.

How do you know? How can you be so sure? Let the new employer find just one slip-up you do in your new job, and POW! More than just one reason to fire the new person.

 

[EngWiPy]

.

Do you have people close to you, that you trust, who you can ask this question to? Classmates, professors/advisors?

There is something just...off...about what we are seeing from you here. I can't put my finger on what it is exactly, but it is quite possible this issue is coming through in your interactions with others and approach to your job search.

In the US anyway, the unemployment rate is about as low as it ever gets (not sure about Canada). I would think you should be able to walk down a city street holding a sign that says "PhD Electrical Engineer" and have people fighting each other to offer you a job. Seriously, if you are qualified for the jobs you are applying for (you may not be) your job search should take days to weeks, not months to years.

That's four negatives/hedges in one short sentence. It makes it sound like rationalization. Are you being honest with yourself about whether you are a fit for the jobs you are applying for?

Do you have a portfolio?

I once met with the CEO of a small startup company, and he told me that PhDs go "like that", but "like that" has been so long for me (this happened two years ago). What I do is I apply for jobs online mostly: I use LinkedIn, Glassdoor, Indeed ... etc. This is my approach. I am trying to connect with my professors' previous PhD students who work in the industry, and see what they will say.

Yes, I apply for jobs where I think I fit. I read the description, and if I am familiar with most of the requirements, I apply. Otherwise, I don't. For example, some data science positions focus on Big Data tools. I don't know much about that, so I don't apply. Or if they require 7-10 years of experience. I don't apply. But if it is about finding insights from data or make predictions, and requires using SQL, Python and/or R, and Tableau with no mention to ( or stress on) experience, I would apply, because I am familiar with these.

I have a LinkedIn profile, and my personal projects are on GitHub. I share all of them in my resume. This is my portfolio.

Is my approach not effective?

 

[StatGuy2000]

Do you have people close to you, that you trust, who you can ask this question to? Classmates, professors/advisors?

There is something just...off...about what we are seeing from you here. I can't put my finger on what it is exactly, but it is quite possible this issue is coming through in your interactions with others and approach to your job search.

In the US anyway, the unemployment rate is about as low as it ever gets (not sure about Canada). I would think you should be able to walk down a city street holding a sign that says "PhD Electrical Engineer" and have people fighting each other to offer you a job. Seriously, if you are qualified for the jobs you are applying for (you may not be) your job search should take days to weeks, not months to years.

That's four negatives/hedges in one short sentence. It makes it sound like rationalization. Are you being honest with yourself about whether you are a fit for the jobs you are applying for?

Do you have a portfolio?

The current unemployment rate in Canada nationally is 5.8%. For more details, see this article in the Toronto Star (one of the main newspapers in Canada):

https://www.thestar.com/business/20...-unemployment-rate-steady-at-58-per-cent.html

As far as demand for engineers in Canada, this report from the Huffington Post (while a few years old), I believe is still applicable.

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2016/04/24/no-jobs-engineering-students-face-tough-market-in-wake-of-oil-downturn_n_9767590.html

If you want to find out what jobs are actually in demand in Canada, here is a link below:

https://www.ctvnews.ca/business/hot...op-15-employment-prospects-for-2018-1.3790295

As you can see above, electrical engineering is noticeably absent from the list in the above link.

 

[pi-r8]

.

I once met with the CEO of a small startup company, and he told me that PhDs go "like that", but "like that" has been so long for me (this happened two years ago). What I do is I apply for jobs online mostly: I use LinkedIn, Glassdoor, Indeed ... etc. This is my approach. I am trying to connect with my professors' previous PhD students who work in the industry, and see what they will say.

Yes, I apply for jobs where I think I fit. I read the description, and if I am familiar with most of the requirements, I apply. Otherwise, I don't. For example, some data science positions focus on Big Data tools. I don't know much about that, so I don't apply. Or if they require 7-10 years of experience. I don't apply. But if it is about finding insights from data or make predictions, and requires using SQL, Python and/or R, and Tableau with no mention to ( or stress on) experience, I would apply, because I am familiar with these.

I have a LinkedIn profile, and my personal projects are on GitHub. I share all of them in my resume. This is my portfolio.

Is my approach not effective?

My best guess is that there's a weird mix of under/overqualified going on here. People see a PhD in Electrical Engineering, and assume you're going to be a highly trained specialist. Unfortunately it sounds like yours was in a really niche field, so you've started applying to a lot of jobs outside of that specialty. That's not unreasonable, but it also means you're competing in areas that aren't your strongest suit. Python + SQL is a good start, but there's a lot of undergrads learning that stuff too, so companies might not know what to do with this weird PhD resume.

 

[EngWiPy]

I want to point out that I am not a Canadian Citizen, but an immigrant, and maybe this explains (at least part) of what is going on. I have a different background culturally and linguistically. This article from 2016 sheds some light on this issue for people who immigrate to Canada and have experience and degrees from outside Canada. The only difference for me is that I have a Canadian degree (with no experience from Canada or elsewhere other than my research experience), but still have the same problem. I think recruiters/employers have some preconceived perception about immigrants that prevent them from seriously considering them, like they won't fit culturally, they won't be able to communicate with others, ... etc. I am maybe wrong, but at least this makes sense over all other possible explanations for not even be called, not like I am being interviewed and evaluated and then rejected.

 

[EngWiPy]

My best guess is that there's a weird mix of under/overqualified going on here. People see a PhD in Electrical Engineering, and assume you're going to be a highly trained specialist. Unfortunately it sounds like yours was in a really niche field, so you've started applying to a lot of jobs outside of that specialty. That's not unreasonable, but it also means you're competing in areas that aren't your strongest suit. Python + SQL is a good start, but there's a lot of undergrads learning that stuff too, so companies might not know what to do with this weird PhD resume.

So, what can I do? I am looking for solutions. I know I am not the best in SQL and Python, but I know statistics/mathematics better than most CS graduates. So, maybe this equalizes that, I thought, for data science positions.

 

[StatGuy2000]

I want to point out that I am not a Canadian Citizen, but an immigrant, and maybe this explains (at least part) of what is going on. I have a different background culturally and linguistically. This article from 2016 sheds some light on this issue for people who immigrate to Canada and have experience and degrees from outside Canada. The only difference for me is that I have a Canadian degree (with no experience from Canada or elsewhere), but still have the same problem. I think recruiters/employers have some preconceived perception about immigrants that prevent them from seriously considering them, like they won't fit culturally, they won't be able to communicate with others, ... etc. I am maybe wrong, but at least this makes sense over all other possible explanations for not even be called, not be interviewed and rejected.

I think this is a point that many of you in the US (who may be under the impression that Canada is some time type of ideal racism-free paradise) needs a reminder of. Racism is a reality in Canada, and this has been reflected in the hiring decisions of employers, particularly towards those of what we Canada refer to as "visible minorities" -- which includes those of black (i.e. African, black Caribbean, African-American), Middle Eastern, South Asian, Latin American, etc -- and indigenous Canadians.

I should also add that (based on my own anecdotal experience -- I don't have the data to back this up) much of the prejudice against hiring is primarily directed toward recent immigrants or those with noticeable foreign accents (visible minority candidates who were born or raised in Canada seem to face fewer hurdles).

 

[pi-r8]

So, what can I do? I am looking for solutions. I know I am not the best in SQL and Python, but I know statistics/mathematics better than most CS graduates. So, maybe this equalizes that, I thought, for data science positions.

I don't know any perfect solution, sorry. All I can think of is things that are worth trying:
-Show one of your resumes/cover letters to someone who works in EE or CS. Might be worth hiring a professional resume service too. As an immigrant, maybe you're not hitting the right notes. For example, in American business culture, it's expected that you kind of brag about yourself in a job application and make yourself look as good as possible, and I've seen international candidates come across too humble.
-Look for jobs in EE, but outside of wireless. You mentioned cloud computing and image processing, which sound like they might be hotter fields.
-Get any kind of job in the short term, just to take some of the pressure off. It's hard to come across well in an interview if you're too desperate.
-There are other sites that might be better for getting advice in data science type jobs.
-For EE wireless, try applying to the US. There's usually a question on the job application asking if you'll need visa sponsorship, so they won't waste your time if they can't do that.
-Mostly just don't give up, and keep trying. It's a stupid process with a lot of randomness, so you never really know what will lead to a job.

 

[StatGuy2000]

I don't know any perfect solution, sorry. All I can think of is things that are worth trying:
-Show one of your resumes/cover letters to someone who works in EE or CS. Might be worth hiring a professional resume service too. As an immigrant, maybe you're not hitting the right notes. For example, in American business culture, it's expected that you kind of brag about yourself in a job application and make yourself look as good as possible, and I've seen international candidates come across too humble.
-Look for jobs in EE, but outside of wireless. You mentioned cloud computing and image processing, which sound like they might be hotter fields.
-Get any kind of job in the short term, just to take some of the pressure off. It's hard to come across well in an interview if you're too desperate.
-There are other sites that might be better for getting advice in data science type jobs.
-For EE wireless, try applying to the US. There's usually a question on the job application asking if you'll need visa sponsorship, so they won't waste your time if they can't do that.
-Mostly just don't give up, and keep trying. It's a stupid process with a lot of randomness, so you never really know what will lead to a job.

@pi-r8 , as an aside, if you don't mind my asking, what do you do for a living? In your earlier posts you state that you have a physics degree, but make no mention of your work experience.

 

[pi-r8]

@pi-r8 , as an aside, if you don't mind my asking, what do you do for a living? In your earlier posts you state that you have a physics degree, but make no mention of your work experience.

Software developer. Going on 7 years of job experience. I can't say that I'm any kind of all-knowing career advice guru but... who is?

 

[austinuni]

Besides some of these results have been there for weeks or even months, which means they most likely have been filled.

That's not a good assumption at all! I have been searching for a job in the past few weeks in the USA, and I have gotten two interviews for positions on LinkedIn which were months old. One position was originally posted on October 2017 at the company web site! Some companies hire very slowly for many different reasons. They can be very selective, or maybe they have multiple openings and don't get enough candidates for all of them at once.

I also landed an onsite interview for a position where I had no direct experience in the field, but had some working knowledge that might allow me to learn on the job. Admittedly I had previously worked at this company and had gotten excellent performance reviews.

A lot of these companies don't even know how to write good job descriptions, or put out a ridiculous number of requirements for candidates that they will never find. If your skills match a few of the requirements, but not all, apply anyway if the job interests you.

And yes, it does take a lot of searching to find a job that might fit your experience. I run into that problem many times, but I still keep searching. These jobs are not going to fall into your lap. Go after them! It is very tedious and frustrating, everyone knows that.

I would visit your University Campus Recruiting Office, and ask if they have any training information for a job search. The way it works could be very different from your current assumptions or past experience. Maybe you also learn about some loophole in the immigration process to the USA (or elsewhere). I wish you the best of luck, especially coming to the USA, because we need Engineers like you!