Why is a concrete wall dividing this school in Jerusalem?

[Bilal]

The students went to their school in east of Jerusalem after summer holiday. They found eight meter height concrete wall divided their school into two parts: this means they need visa and to travell several kilometers (after completing the wall) to move from one part of the school to the other part!

The goal of this wall which divided schools , universities ,families, farms and even houses is to keep as many as possible Palestinian population inside the wall and to get as much as possible lands by keeping them out of the wall so they can expand the Jews settlements.

 

[Echo 6 Sierra]

WOW! I'm sorry but I just can't see why anyone would actually think this is OK. Bilal, can you explain to me more specifically why this was done to a school instead of simply leaving it alone and putting the wall on one side of it? I would think that all the students would be from "the same side" and let it be like that. Or, are they doing this as a form of harassment to maybe provoke the community? I'd also like to hear your views on why the Jewish and Palestinians really can't get along.

 

[Bilal]

Hi Echo 6 Sierra,

This wall divides East Jerusalem (Palestinian part of the city - 20% christians and 80% muslims) into two parts: 200000 are living in the western part of the wall and 56000 are living on the eastern part. They expect to force ten thousands of people to leave the country after they lose their business and their schools.

Israel was established by Zionists to be ''Jews homeland''. The problem now that half of people of historical Palestine (Israel, West Bank and Gaza) are non Jews , so they need to reduce the percentage of the non Jews by destroying the social and the economical life of people and to force them to immigrate. For example, around 10% of people in my city immigrated and hundreds of shops and markets are closed after they surrounded it completely by concrete wall with two gates.

WOW! I'm sorry but I just can't see why anyone would actually think this is OK. Bilal, can you explain to me more specifically why this was done to a school instead of simply leaving it alone and putting the wall on one side of it? I would think that all the students would be from "the same side" and let it be like that. Or, are they doing this as a form of harassment to maybe provoke the community? I'd also like to hear your views on why the Jewish and Palestinians really can't get along.

 

[Echo 6 Sierra]

Isn't there enough room for everyone? If we are all to love our neighbor as we love ourselves why do the Palestinians and Jewish keep doing things like this?

 

[Yonoz]

Isn't there enough room for everyone?

This isn't about room - it's about the future of Jerusalem.
Seeing as the Palestinians claim Jerusalem to be the capital of the Palestinian State-to-be, there is much government pressure to complete this security barrier quickly.
The situation isn't entirely clear - the completed sections of the security barrier have proved themselves to be efficient in stopping infiltrations into Israel, however there is no denying the section of the barrier surrounding Jerusalem possesses a powerful political charge.
I have signed up for a tour of the barrier organised by a joint Israeli-Palestinian organisation. I have been in the waiting list 4 weeks already - these are quite popular due to the geographical complexity of Jerusalem and its neighbouring cities. Unfortunately this lack of clarity is also used by the various parties to spread disinformation and exaggerations.
It is a terrible move, albeit not as terrible as the terror it's meant to stop.

 

[Echo 6 Sierra]

I have limited knowledge on this subject so I appreciate your and everyones patience if I ask a question that may be common knowledge for most.

Jerusalem is the capital of both countries and both of them want it for themselves, is this correct? Is there anything special about Jerusalem other than the religiously specific points of fact? Are there any similarities in the two separate groups that might be a "come together" point? I see that you are going to be in a joint-type organization for some reason. What will you be doing?

What would keep a Jewish person and a Palestinian from physically embracing each other in public and engaging in fellowship? Would it be one specific point or would it be a list of things? Is it like in America where Christians are supposed to be kind and love one another (and I believe most do) but there are those that shoot, kill, maim, and blow people up because of an extreme belief?

 

[Yonoz]

I have limited knowledge on this subject so I appreciate your and everyones patience if I ask a question that may be common knowledge for most.

Even common knowledge is disputed here...

Jerusalem is the capital of both countries and both of them want it for themselves, is this correct?

Incorrect.
There is no Palestinian state at this time. There is a Palestinian Authority, an autonomous state-like entity within the Israeli state. It is comprised almost entirely of PLO figures, and is recognized by Israel since the Oslo Accords.
The PA and Israel cooperate quite extensively: the interim ministries exchange information on births, deaths and marriages; the Israeli State supplies the PA with water, electricity and sanitary services and the transport of vital commodities such as petrol, LPG, medical supplies and foodstuffs is guaranteed even during violent conflicts.
Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, and all Israeli heads of state have declared it will remain unified as its capital. The PA aims to establish a state with Jerusalem as its capital, and its Parliament is located on the closest border of the Palestinian Authority to the Temple Mount.
The subject of Jerusalem is therefor considered one of the major hurdles to true peace between Israelis and Palestinians, and none of the agreements between the two sides include any sort of mutual understanding regarding it.

Is there anything special about Jerusalem other than the religiously specific points of fact?

It is a capital city. Handing over a piece of one's capital city to a violent entity that that's responsible for so much bloodshed is difficult even for the most secular person.
Traditionally Jerusalem has little significance in Islam. It is not mentioned once in the Koran. It is considered by some to be the place where Muhammad ascended to the heavens, and inside the Dome of the Rock there is a rock traditionally believed to have Muhammad's footprints, but that is little compared to the significance of other cities such as Mecca and Medina.
Although it is in Israeli territory, the Temple Mount is strictly under the control of the Waqf - an independent Islamic body responsible for the maintenance of Islamic religious sites. Currently Jews are not permitted on the Temple Mount, and the security forces constantly confront Jews wishing to worship on the Temple Mount - a violation of the civil right of worship. An extremist few even call for the erection of a third Temple. Yet the Israeli State maintains the status-quo that has been established, in spite of constant provocations from the Waqf (calls to violence under pretense that Israel is undermining the Dome of the Rock, archeological digs in breach of an agreement not to alter anything on the Temple Mount and the destruction of archeological findings as a result). Muslim access to the Temple Mount is also restricted in times of tension, usually to males aged 40 or more. There have been numerous occasions where the worshippers on the Temple Mount ended their prayers by throwing rocks onto the Jews praying at the Western Wall underneath them, causing a violent confrontation with the security forces.

Are there any similarities in the two separate groups that might be a "come together" point?

Both have a majority of people wanting to live peacefuly, I hope that will be enough.

I see that you are going to be in a joint-type organization for some reason. What will you be doing?

I merely signed up for a tour of the barrier around Jerusalem guided by Israeli and Palestinian officials, but I try to keep active in a political sense - attending rallies and demonstrations. The last elections took place while I was in active military service, prohibiting me from participating, but in the elections prior to those I was very active and volunteered as an observer for a left wing party. I consider my time in the military as the most influential. I realize it may sound quite the opposite but I learned there is no substitute to being there.

What would keep a Jewish person and a Palestinian from physically embracing each other in public and engaging in fellowship? Would it be one specific point or would it be a list of things?

Nothing. The situation on the personal level is different to that on the national one. Some people bear grudges, but there are many Palestinians working in Israel and they often develop friendships with their employers. During the Oslo accords the PA was filled with bargain-shopping Israelis and we would go out to eat in places I would not come near today. Many customers and businessmen remained in good friendships since, but it is too dangerous for Israelis to enter Palestinian cities and so they rarely meet and if they do its only in Israel. One Israeli businessman was abducted and killed by terrorists less than a fortnight ago, I can only assume he entered somewhere he shouldn't have.

Is it like in America where Christians are supposed to be kind and love one another (and I believe most do) but there are those that shoot, kill, maim, and blow people up because of an extreme belief?

It is extremism of greater extent. Despite being a left-winged Israeli I have much criticism for the Palestinians, because of their national selection, acceptance and support for horrific violent struggle. Even today, there is no opposition within Palestinian society to the most extreme form of violence - suicide bombers. But when whenever I talk with one, they object to it strongly. It seems even those opposed to it are unwilling to do anything to change it.
The violence has also touched many on both sides. There is general conscription here. The military is filled with family members of terror victims, yet cases of unwarranted violence against Palestinians - of which there are quite a few - are far from being a system-wide problem. The Israeli public's consensus is that unnecessary violence is unacceptable and even shameful.

 

[Bilal]

Dear Echo 6 Sierra,
You can read about the background of the conflict from neutral sources such as wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab-Israeli_conflict

You welcome to ask any specific question

 

[Echo 6 Sierra]

Thank you. I searched on Palestine and clicked a few links and it looks like most of the sub-articles are being disputed, oh well.

Would there be any sane way to allow both governments to use the city of Jerusalem? It dosen't seem like they both worship at the same places, just near each other. The part about throwing rocks at the ones practicing their faith below...I'm sure that it all started with one person doing it and then the fever caught on and then everyone jumped on the bandwagon. Pity.

Let me see if I have this straight: Palestinians are Muslim and the Jewish practice Judaism for the most part, right? Both have religiously historical sites within the city of Jerusalem that are the utmost holy to the respective groups. Both groups have had at one time or another throughout history "control" of the affected area(s), and Jordan has too I think, at least partly and then they relinquished/lost it. Are these statements correct?

Why do the Israelis support the Palestinians with the necessities as Yonoz said? It seems counter-productive if they want them to leave.

Yonoz, you said that it's about the future of Jerusalem. I don't fully understand. What would happen if all of a sudden the leader of the PA was omnipotent? Would he kill all the Jews and destroy their places of worship? What exactly do you think would actually happen? On the other hand, what would happen if the Jewish became omnipotent?

 

[Bilal]

Palestinian are nation not religious group. There are 18% of them Christian (Bethlehem, Nazareth, beit Sahur , Beit Jala ...). Moreover, Jews used to be part of Palestinian people till UK decided to convert Palestine in 1921 to ''Jews homeland'' and to encourage all the Jews of the world to live here.

In my city , Nablus, we still have small Jews community who are Palestinian Jews. They live here since 3000 years. Furthermore, around 5% of People of my city are Christian. Here is the official homepage of the Palestinian Christian:
http://www.al-bushra.org/

Unfortunately, since creation of Israel many people, especially Palestinian christian, decided to immigrate"

Jerusalem is not just Holy places. Simply anybody should be allowed to pray in his holy place without getting political authority on the city. This city is the spirit of Palestine, and there will be no Palestinian State without it. The city was divided in 1948: Western part became Jews part after all Muslims and Christian (who lived there for centuries) were kicked out or killed (e.g. Dair Yassin massacre). On the other hand, the eastern part is still Palestinian (Muslims, Christian and Armenian (Christian -non Arab) quarters as it was since centuries.

Currently the Palestinian accepted to get only East part, where Palestinian still live, but the Zionists built many Jews settlements around the Palestinian houses and recently they built this wall to destroy the Palestinian community in east Jerusalem and to force them to leave.

Thank you. I searched on Palestine and clicked a few links and it looks like most of the sub-articles are being disputed, oh well.

Would there be any sane way to allow both governments to use the city of Jerusalem? It dosen't seem like they both worship at the same places, just near each other. The part about throwing rocks at the ones practicing their faith below...I'm sure that it all started with one person doing it and then the fever caught on and then everyone jumped on the bandwagon. Pity.

Let me see if I have this straight: Palestinians are Muslim and the Jewish practice Judaism for the most part, right? Both have religiously historical sites within the city of Jerusalem that are the utmost holy to the respective groups. Both groups have had at one time or another throughout history "control" of the affected area(s), and Jordan has too I think, at least partly and then they relinquished/lost it. Are these statements correct?

Why do the Israelis support the Palestinians with the necessities as Yonoz said? It seems counter-productive if they want them to leave.

Yonoz, you said that it's about the future of Jerusalem. I don't fully understand. What would happen if all of a sudden the leader of the PA was omnipotent? Would he kill all the Jews and destroy their places of worship? What exactly do you think would actually happen? On the other hand, what would happen if the Jewish became omnipotent?

 

[Echo 6 Sierra]

Palestinian are nation not religious group. There are 18% of them Christian (Bethlehem, Nazareth, beit Sahur , Beit Jala ...).

Thank you for clearing that up for me.

In my city , Nablus, we still have small Jews community who are Palestinian Jews. They live here since 3000 years. Furthermore, around 5% of People of my city are Christian. Here is the official homepage of the Palestinian Christian:http://www.al-bushra.org/.

There is a HUGE amount of information on that webpage. It will take a while to read it all, thank you.

Unfortunately, since creation of Israel many people, especially Palestinian christian, decided to immigrate.

Was there any single or preferred place they went or did they just go to any place they felt better accommodated?

Thank you for all the information.
E6S

 

[Anttech]

There are 18% of them Christian (Bethlehem, Nazareth, beit Sahur , Beit Jala ...)

There are many greek Orthodox's in Jerusalem, who are deemed as "Palestine's" The most important church in the orthodox faith is in Jerusalem "The mother of all churches". There is quiet a strong Greek community in Jerusalem centered around the orthodox monasteries... And also there was quite a big scandel recently regarding the Patriarch selling land to the jews, which not only pissed of lots of eastern Christian it pissed of lots Arabs too. Because of the above mentioned troubles.

The Greek Orthodox church, which has about 100,000 followers in the holy land, is the richest church in the region and the second largest landowner in Jerusalem after the Israeli state. Among its holdings is the land on which the Israeli parliament and Ariel Sharon's official residence stand.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1442923,00.html

The ME saga continues

 

[Yonoz]

Would there be any sane way to allow both governments to use the city of Jerusalem?

If you find it, let us know

It dosen't seem like they both worship at the same places, just near each other.

That is simply due to the fact that the Israeli State does not allow Jews to worship on the Temple Mount. It is actually the holliest site in Judaism, the wailing wall is simply the closest Jews can get to it. There is an extremist group calling for the foundation of a third temple and they organize rallies, trying to enter the Temple Mount and to pray there. They also try to achieve it by legal means.

The part about throwing rocks at the ones practicing their faith below...I'm sure that it all started with one person doing it and then the fever caught on and then everyone jumped on the bandwagon. Pity.

I would think it has something to do with the sermon they hear right before that - simply because most of the time it's peaceful, but when they have done it there was no shortage of participants.

Let me see if I have this straight: Palestinians are Muslim and the Jewish practice Judaism for the most part, right?

There are also Christian Palestinians. Israel is mostly Jewish, but a large portion of its populace is Muslim and Christian.

Both have religiously historical sites within the city of Jerusalem that are the utmost holy to the respective groups.

Mecca and Medina are "utmost holy" to the Islamic religion, Jerusalem isn't even mentioned in the Koran. It is central in Judaism. Just as all Muslims pray facing Mecca, Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Synagogues all around the world are built so that the congregation faces Jerusalem.

Both groups have had at one time or another throughout history "control" of the affected area(s), and Jordan has too I think, at least partly and then they relinquished/lost it.

The Palestinians never had control over Jerusalem. Actually, they did not control any territory prior to the Oslo Accords.
Israel conquered Eastern Jerusalem, containing the Old City, in the 6-day war. Prior to that it was held by Jordan, since the end of the British mandate.

Why do the Israelis support the Palestinians with the necessities as Yonoz said? It seems counter-productive if they want them to leave.

Israel has no interest in more hardship for the Palestinians - that would only bring about more violence. It's in Israel's interest to see regional prosperity.

Yonoz, you said that it's about the future of Jerusalem. I don't fully understand. What would happen if all of a sudden the leader of the PA was omnipotent? Would he kill all the Jews and destroy their places of worship? What exactly do you think would actually happen?

I have very little faith in the good will of the Palestinian leadership. The PA is manned almost entirely by PLO members. The PLO has a militant wing called Fatah, which has carried out PA-sponsored acts of terrorism, particularly while its leaders are sitting at the negotiating table. I doubt they would allow an Israeli State to exist, not to mention Israeli control of Jerusalem.
We do not have peace yet because of the wide gaps between our visions of a fair settlement. The first step would be to stop the violence, then trust can be restored, interim agreements can be made, money will do its thing and then maybe after a few centuries my and Bilal's grandchildren would know no violence. In the meantime, it's babysteps.

On the other hand, what would happen if the Jewish became omnipotent?

There is no knowing what goes on in Sharon's head. He would probably make all the Palestinians disappear, maybe they'd show up in Pakistan or Iran. :tongue:

 

[Yonoz]

The city was divided in 1948: Western part became Jews part after all Muslims and Christian (who lived there for centuries) were kicked out or killed (e.g. Dair Yassin massacre).

No one was "kicked out" of Western Jerusalem, and there was no killing either. Muslims and Christians have been living there uninterruptedly since 1948. The Jewish Quarter, however, is in the Eastern part of the Old City that fell under Jordanian control and its populace was "kicked out" by the Jordanians. Deir-Yassin isn't even near Jerusalem, and was an isolated incident that was carried out by a borderline group. Those who left Western Jerusalem did so in fear, but no one was coherced. They probably thought they could return once the experienced and well supplied armies of Jordan, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon and Egypt with the support of local Arabs destroy the new Israeli State, as their leaders had promised.
The city was meant to be demilitarized as per the UN partition plan. The Israeli State was originally declared in Tel-Aviv, and the Parliament resided there. However, the Arabs lay a bloody siege to the Jewish part of the city which lasted all through the War of Independence. There are still makeshift armoured cars laying on the side of the road to Jerusalem, serving as memorials to the men who died trying to bring food and ammunition to the besieged populace.

 

[Bilal]

Yonoz,

It seems you have a lot of time to spend on the internet.

Palestine was part of Ottoman Empire the same as Ukraine was part of USSR , the same as Bosnia was part of Yugoslavian Union ... When a union fall , it means the birth of many States ... Ottoman Empire fall so all ME and Balkan countries are created. Palestinian did not replace other nations, they are living here since centuries. They were pagan, after that part of them became Jews and then Christianity and Islam spread...

It is surprising to observe that you became also expert in Islam!

- Muslims got Jerusalem from Byzantine Empire in the 7yth century. In that time no Jews were in Jerusalem and no presence of what called Mount Temple (Actually Roman destroyed everything link to the Jews and did not let them to live in the city). Muslims built beautiful mosque in a holy area ... in other words, they did not get the city from the Jews, and they did not destroy or harm any Jews temples.

- If Jerusalem is not important for Muslim, could you explain why the Islamic world (Turks, Arab, Kurds ...) were fighting for 200 years to liberate it from Crusaders?

- Jerusalem is the third city in Islam and here verses of Koran concerning it (The verses mentioned that Jews will occupy Jerusalem, and they will destroy the holy mosque, thus muslims will unite against them):
***************************************************************
017.001 : Glory to (Allah) Who did take His servant for a Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did bless, - in order that We might show him some of Our Signs: for He is the One Who heareth and seeth (all things).
017.004 : And We gave (Clear) Warning to the Children of Israel in the Book, that twice would they do mischief on the Earth and be elated with mighty arrogance (and twice would they be punished)!
017.005 : When the first of the warnings came to pass, We sent against you Our servants given to terrible warfare: They entered the very inmost parts of your homes; and it was a warning (completely) fulfilled.
017.006 : Then did We grant you the Return as against them: We gave you increase in resources and sons, and made you the more numerous in man-power.
017.007: If you do good, you will do good for your own souls, and if you do evil, it shall be for them. So when the second promise came (We raised another people) that they may bring you to grief and that they may enter the mosque as they entered it the first time, and that they might destroy whatever they gained ascendancy over with utter destruction.
017.008 : It may be that your Lord will have mercy on you, and if you again return (to disobedience) We too will return (to punishment), and We have made hell a prison for the unbelievers.
*********************************************
At last , we should stop playing in religions cards, otherwise Jews will lose more than Palestinian. This is because most of muslims can not accept to recognise Isreal. They believe that Zionists should have the same fate of crusaders. It is great step from Palestinain to accept the right of Israel to exist

 

[Bilal]

Palestinian Christians started to immigrate in 50s after the creation of Israel on 78% of Palestine, which causes complete destruction of 540 Palestinian towns.
- There are in Chili (South America), 300000 Palestinian orthodox Christian ... (3 times more than Palestinian orthodox Christian who still living in their country).
- Ramallah was Christian city till 50s. It was rebuilt at the end of crusaders wars by native catholic Christian to be close to Jerusalem and Bethlehem.. Most of native people of this city are living now in Chicago (USA). The percentage of Christian in this city decreased dramatically in last 50 years from 100% to 18%.
- Many of Palestinian (Christian and Muslims) are living in Jordan, Syria and Lebanon as refugees).

Was there any single or preferred place they went or did they just go to any place they felt better accommodated?

 

[Yonoz]

Yonoz,

It seems you have a lot of time to spend on the internet.

...

It is surprising to observe that you became also expert in Islam!

Let's not stoop to personal abuse.

- If Jerusalem is not important for Muslim, could you explain why the Islamic world (Turks, Arab, Kurds ...) were fighting for 200 years to liberate it from Crusaders?

Read again what I have written:

Traditionally Jerusalem has little significance in Islam. It is not mentioned once in the Koran. It is considered by some to be the place where Muhammad ascended to the heavens, and inside the Dome of the Rock there is a rock traditionally believed to have Muhammad's footprints, but that is little compared to the significance of other cities such as Mecca and Medina.

Mecca and Medina are "utmost holy" to the Islamic religion, Jerusalem isn't even mentioned in the Koran. It is central in Judaism.

Does it say anywhere Jerusalem is not important to Muslims? What it does say is that there are other cities of much greater importance, whereas in Judaism Jerusalem is pretty much the geographical epicenter, like Mecca in Islam. My personal opinion is that a fair settlement would recognize at least the relative differences in the city's importance, not to mention the choices made by Muslim leaders in the current conflict.
Jerusalem, by the way, was taken by the Crusaders in 1099 and then by Salah a-Din in 1187 - a total of 88 years, so I don't see how Muslims were fighting to liberate it for 200 years. One can argue the religious importance it had in the eyes of its liberators, but Salah a-Din was in no rush to capture it (he retreated from 2 invasions organised by Nur a-Din because he wanted to wait for Nur a-Din's death and conquer his empire), nor did he stop conquering once he had it. The territory, the routes, the political significance (and the odd fact that it was in the way to Syria) were just as important, if not moreso. Let's not forget the man conquered other Muslim states - I don't think that's encouraged in the Koran. I guess you could say he had territorial aspirations.

- Jerusalem is the third city in Islam and here verses of Koran concerning it (The verses mentioned that Jews will occupy Jerusalem, and they will destroy the holy mosque, thus muslims will unite against them):
***************************************************************
017.001 : Glory to (Allah) Who did take His servant for a Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did bless, - in order that We might show him some of Our Signs: for He is the One Who heareth and seeth (all things).
017.004 : And We gave (Clear) Warning to the Children of Israel in the Book, that twice would they do mischief on the Earth and be elated with mighty arrogance (and twice would they be punished)!
017.005 : When the first of the warnings came to pass, We sent against you Our servants given to terrible warfare: They entered the very inmost parts of your homes; and it was a warning (completely) fulfilled.
017.006 : Then did We grant you the Return as against them: We gave you increase in resources and sons, and made you the more numerous in man-power.
017.007: If you do good, you will do good for your own souls, and if you do evil, it shall be for them. So when the second promise came (We raised another people) that they may bring you to grief and that they may enter the mosque as they entered it the first time, and that they might destroy whatever they gained ascendancy over with utter destruction.
017.008 : It may be that your Lord will have mercy on you, and if you again return (to disobedience) We too will return (to punishment), and We have made hell a prison for the unbelievers.
*********************************************

I see only one reference to Jerusalem, which is very vague in itself - "the farthest mosque" - it isn't even mentioned by name. Also, the passage doesn't really give it much significance, does it? It seems the city has gotten a lot more popular thanks to its history and political status.

At last , we should stop playing in religions cards, otherwise Jews will lose more than Palestinian. This is because most of muslims can not accept to recognise Isreal. They believe that Zionists should have the same fate of crusaders. It is great step from Palestinain to accept the right of Israel to exist

I don't see how you expect to come to a settlement with that sort of reasoning.

 

[Yonoz]

Yonoz,

It seems you have a lot of time to spend on the internet.

...

It is surprising to observe that you became also expert in Islam!

Let's not stoop to personal abuse.

- If Jerusalem is not important for Muslim, could you explain why the Islamic world (Turks, Arab, Kurds ...) were fighting for 200 years to liberate it from Crusaders?

Read again what I have written:

Traditionally Jerusalem has little significance in Islam. It is not mentioned once in the Koran. It is considered by some to be the place where Muhammad ascended to the heavens, and inside the Dome of the Rock there is a rock traditionally believed to have Muhammad's footprints, but that is little compared to the significance of other cities such as Mecca and Medina.

Mecca and Medina are "utmost holy" to the Islamic religion, Jerusalem isn't even mentioned in the Koran. It is central in Judaism.

Does it say anywhere Jerusalem is not important to Muslims? What it does say is that there are other cities of much greater importance, whereas in Judaism Jerusalem is the geographical and spiritual epicenter, like Mecca in Islam. My personal opinion is that a fair settlement would recognize at least the relative differences in the city's importance, not to mention the choices made by Muslim leaders regarding Jerusalem in the current conflict. There are numerous Jewish holy sites that Israel has given up in exchange for nothing but peace.
Jerusalem, by the way, was taken by the Crusaders in 1099 and then by Salah a-Din in 1187 - a total of 88 years, so I don't see how Muslims were fighting to liberate it for 200 years. One can argue the religious importance it had in the eyes of its liberators, but Salah a-Din was in no rush to capture it (he retreated from 2 invasions organised by Nur a-Din because he wanted to wait for Nur a-Din's death and conquer his empire), nor did he stop conquering once he had it. The territory, the routes, the political significance and the odd fact that it was in the way to Syria were just as important, if not moreso. Let's not forget the man conquered other Muslim states - I don't think that's encouraged in the Koran. I don't think he was a very devout Muslim.

- Jerusalem is the third city in Islam and here verses of Koran concerning it (The verses mentioned that Jews will occupy Jerusalem, and they will destroy the holy mosque, thus muslims will unite against them):
***************************************************************
017.001 : Glory to (Allah) Who did take His servant for a Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did bless, - in order that We might show him some of Our Signs: for He is the One Who heareth and seeth (all things).
017.004 : And We gave (Clear) Warning to the Children of Israel in the Book, that twice would they do mischief on the Earth and be elated with mighty arrogance (and twice would they be punished)!
017.005 : When the first of the warnings came to pass, We sent against you Our servants given to terrible warfare: They entered the very inmost parts of your homes; and it was a warning (completely) fulfilled.
017.006 : Then did We grant you the Return as against them: We gave you increase in resources and sons, and made you the more numerous in man-power.
017.007: If you do good, you will do good for your own souls, and if you do evil, it shall be for them. So when the second promise came (We raised another people) that they may bring you to grief and that they may enter the mosque as they entered it the first time, and that they might destroy whatever they gained ascendancy over with utter destruction.
017.008 : It may be that your Lord will have mercy on you, and if you again return (to disobedience) We too will return (to punishment), and We have made hell a prison for the unbelievers.
*********************************************

I see only one reference to Jerusalem, which is very vague in itself - "the farthest mosque" - it isn't even mentioned by name. Also, the passage doesn't really give it much significance, does it? It seems the city has gotten a lot more popular thanks to its history and political status.

At last , we should stop playing in religions cards, otherwise Jews will lose more than Palestinian. This is because most of muslims can not accept to recognise Isreal. They believe that Zionists should have the same fate of crusaders. It is great step from Palestinain to accept the right of Israel to exist

I don't see how you expect to come to a settlement with that sort of reasoning.

 

[Anttech]

At last , we should stop playing in religions cards, otherwise Jews will lose more than Palestinian. This is because most of muslims can not accept to recognise Isreal. They believe that Zionists should have the same fate of crusaders. It is great step from Palestinain to accept the right of Israel to exist

Not even a secular Isreal?

 

[Bilal]

It is uncommon in the Koran to mention the names of places, countries and people. Only Egypt is mentioned one time.

Mecca, Kabba, and Medina are not mentioned in the Koran , is that means they are not holy places?

((These Koran paragraphs are of great significance among Muslims. They indicate that Jews will occupy Jerusalem and they will destroy Al Aqsa mosque after they become superpower, but finally a great nation will defeat them and liberate Jerusalem … every year , when Muslims around the world celebrate "Isra and Merage" they read these paragraphs as promise to return back Jerusalem. The same as religious Jews believe in Massieh who will destroy the enemies of Israel.))

Prophet of Islam considered AL Aqsa as the third mosque in Islam, and for this reason early Muslims did their best to get Jerusalem.

I told you it is dangerous card, even Turkey (the strategic alliance of Israel) will react very badly and in unexpected way if anybody destroys this mosque …. Also you can say “bye” for all Jews temples and their heritage in Islamic world.

I wish not to see my country a battlefield of new crusaders wars, but this time between the Islamic world and Jews.

I see only one reference to Jerusalem, which is very vague in itself - "the farthest mosque" - it isn't even mentioned by name. Also, the passage doesn't really give it much significance, does it? It seems the city has gotten a lot more popular thanks to its history and political status.
I don't see how you expect to come to a settlement with that sort of reasoning.

 

[Bilal]

Palestinian are aware to keep this conflict far from religions. We consider this as political conflict, and every peaceful Jews is welcome to live in our country. Even we rarely mention "Jews" as enemy; we refer to them as "Zionists". We also accept to have one State and to give all the citizens the same rights. If Palestinian make peace with Israel , then the rest of Muslims will respect their decision .. just recently we observed good signs from large Islamic countries especially Pakistan and Indonesia , who willing to recognize Israel. They start their contact with Israel after the PA leadership gave them green light.

Just imagine if they destroy a holy mosque (1400 years old) which belong to 23% of the people of the world! Moreover, this mosque is classified by UNESCO as one of unique human heritage.. because of its historical and architecture values.

This mosque was converted to Church during crusaders wars for 91 years, and for this reason Muslims decided rejected to stop fighting till they get it in 1187.

If they destroy this mosque, nobody can guess what will happen.

Not even a secular Isreal?

 

[Yonoz]

It is uncommon in the Koran to mention the names of places, countries and people. Only Egypt is mentioned one time.

Mecca, Kabba, and Medina are not mentioned in the Koran , is that means they are not holy places?

“Surely, the first House founded for mankind is that at Becca (the valley of Mecca), abounding in blessings and a guidance for all peoples. In it are manifest signs; it is the place of Abraham; and whoso enters it, enters peace” (3:96-97)

of Hajj inside Mecca: Ka'aba[/URL]

((These Koran paragraphs are of great significance among Muslims. They indicate that Jews will occupy Jerusalem and they will destroy Al Aqsa mosque after they become superpower, but finally a great nation will defeat them and liberate Jerusalem … every year , when Muslims around the world celebrate "Isra and Merage" they read these paragraphs as promise to return back Jerusalem. The same as religious Jews believe in Massieh who will destroy the enemies of Israel.))

The destruction of Al-Aqsa is not mentioned explicitly, but a very vague "mischief upon the earth". The same applies to your interpretation regarding the liberation of Jerusalem.
I do not wish to dive any further into this subject out of respect for Islam. The Koran, like its Jewish and Christian counterparts, contains many controversial verses that can be interpreted in various ways.
Wars, religious as they may be, should not be waged on the basis of clerics' interpretations of a 15 century old prophecy, especially when it is made at times when the legitimacy of the theocracies they pursue is questioned by their followers.

I told you it is dangerous card, even Turkey (the strategic alliance of Israel) will react very badly and in unexpected way if anybody destroys this mosque …. Also you can say “bye” for all Jews temples and their heritage in Islamic world.

There is no intention to do anything to the mosque. Rather, the Waqf is ignoring warnings that the extensive digs it conducts under the Temple Mount endanger the Mosque and Shrine. These digs have caused a bulge to appear in the Southern Wall, which has apparently neared collapse (I can only say apparently because Israeli engineers and archeologists are not allowed to examine the Waqf work).

I wish not to see my country a battlefield of new crusaders wars, but this time between the Islamic world and Jews.

At least we agree on something...

 

[Yonoz]

Palestinian are aware to keep this conflict far from religions. We consider this as political conflict, and every peaceful Jews is welcome to live in our country.

It's a shame your http://www.hebron.org.il/pics/tarpat/people1.htm that way.
By the way, the Jews in those pictures were not immigrants, they had lived alongside their neighbours for centuries.

We also accept to have one State and to give all the citizens the same rights. If Palestinian make peace with Israel , then the rest of Muslims will respect their decision ..

Why do you think that solution is better than 2 states?

Just imagine if they destroy a holy mosque (1400 years old) which belong to 23% of the people of the world!

Why would you want to imagine such a thing?
Just a reminder - that mosque was so holy to a Palestinian named Mustapha Shukri Usho he assassinated King Abdullah I and shot 16 year old Prince Hussein inside it, in 1951. Another interesting fact is that the King was killed because he was covertly discussing a joint peace treaty with Israel together with Lebanon. He was attending the funeral of Riad Bey al-Solh, the Lebanese Prime Minister, who did not die of natural causes either.

 

[Bilal]

It is also shame your grandparents disturbed the peaceful historical relations between Jews and Palestinian by establishing the Zionism movement, which made people think that Palestinian Jews are traitors.

It is logical that Palestinian Jews were under attack after declaration of Anglo-Zionism collaboration to encourge the immigration of European Jews to Palestine and to create their State, by ignoring the rights and the feelings of the native people.

It's a shame your http://www.hebron.org.il/pics/tarpat/people1.htm that way.
By the way, the Jews in those pictures were not immigrants, they had lived alongside their neighbours for centuries.
Why do you think that solution is better than 2 states?

Why would you want to imagine such a thing?
Just a reminder - that mosque was so holy to a Palestinian named Mustapha Shukri Usho he assassinated King Abdullah I and shot 16 year old Prince Hussein inside it, in 1951. Another interesting fact is that the King was killed because he was covertly discussing a joint peace treaty with Israel together with Lebanon. He was attending the funeral of Riad Bey al-Solh, the Lebanese Prime Minister, who did not die of natural causes either.

 

[Bilal]

Originally Posted by Islam.com
“Surely, the first House founded for mankind is that at Becca (the valley of Mecca), abounding in blessings and a guidance for all peoples. In it are manifest signs; it is the place of Abraham; and whoso enters it, enters peace” (3:96-97)

It is clear that Koran did not mention also Kaaba explicitly by refer it as ((the first House founded for mankind )). It is the same as referring to AL Aqsa mosque as the farthest mosque...

By the way in Arabic Koran Al aqsa is mentioned explicitly because: AL Aqsa = the farthest...

 

[Yonoz]

It is also shame your grandparents disturbed the peaceful historical relations between Jews and Palestinian by establishing the Zionism movement, which made people think that Palestinian Jews are traitors.

How would the establishment of the Zionist movement make your centuries-long neighbour a traitor? How does that justify attacking them in such a brutal way? Had they been European settlers on land bought from Arab landlords, would that justify murder, maim and rape?
You seem to be very understanding of these atrocities when committed by Palestinians, in contrast with violent acts by Jews. Do you honestly believe your people have not contributed one bit to the conflict between us? Do you honestly believe such brutality, regardless of its perpetrator, can be justified?

It is logical that Palestinian Jews were under attack after declaration of Anglo-Zionism collaboration to encourge the immigration of European Jews to Palestine and to create their State, by ignoring the rights and the feelings of the native people.

What rights did they ignore? The right to prevent peaceful settlers from living on their own land simply because they're Jewish?

 

[Yonoz]

Originally Posted by Islam.com
“Surely, the first House founded for mankind is that at Becca (the valley of Mecca), abounding in blessings and a guidance for all peoples. In it are manifest signs; it is the place of Abraham; and whoso enters it, enters peace” (3:96-97)

It is clear that Koran did not mention also Kaaba explicitly by refer it as ((the first House founded for mankind )). It is the same as referring to AL Aqsa mosque as the farthest mosque...

Yes but can you see the contextual difference between the two verses?

By the way in Arabic Koran Al aqsa is mentioned explicitly because: AL Aqsa = the farthest...

We're talking about Jerusalem, which I believe you call Al-Quds.
The Al-Aqsa mosque was only built in 710. The Koran predates it. The Dome of the Rock was built in 690, again, after these verses were written.

 

[Entropy]

Mecca and Medina are "utmost holy" to the Islamic religion, Jerusalem isn't even mentioned in the Koran.

It is still very important. You're forgetting about The Dome of The Rock.

 

[Yonoz]

It is still very important. You're forgetting about The Dome of The Rock.

There is a difference between "very important" and "utmost holy":

ut·most
adj.
Of the highest or greatest degree, amount, or intensity; most extreme: a matter of the utmost importance.

Mecca is the "utmost holy" site in Islam. Jerusalem is the "utmost holy" site in Judaism.

 

[Bilal]

Yonoz,
Jerusalem is holy city for Muslims, Jews and Christian, and for this reason there were clash between Islamic world and Christian world in 11th, 12th and 13th centuries. Every group wanted to protect their holy places in the city.

Al Aqsa is the third Holy mosque in Islam. . For this reason, the early Muslims were enthusiastic to capture Jerusalem and to build it.

Mentioning its name in the Koran and by Prophet Mohammed is enough to make every Muslim believe that this is a Holy mosque. As I told you, one of main Muslims holydays, Isra and Miraj, which is official Holyday in the Islamic world since 1400 years, is related directly to Al Aqsa mosque. Muslims believe that prophet Muhammad prayed in that place with other prophets, so it has great spiritual value.

Before the fall of Ottoman Empire, Muslims pilgrims used to visit Al Aqsa as part of their Holy trip. For this reason, the North African established ‘’Magarebah or Moroccan quarter in Jerusalem. This place was destroyed by the Israeli in 1967 and its people were kicked out. Furthermore, we still have African community in Jericho, they also kicked out from Jerusalem. Those people are the descendants of Muslims pilgrims who settled in Jerusalem.

I do not deny that city is holy place for Jews and Christian, but surely you can set a theory and convince 1.3- 1.5 billion Muslims that they have no rights in Jerusalem, and their faith for 1400 years is wrong!

 

[Bilal]

Mosque = Masjid = This we call it as ''name of place”, which indicates to location not building.

Al Aqsa mosque refers to the land where those buildings (Dome of Rock and Al Aqsa) exist.

The buildings have great historical, spiritual and architecture value in the Islamic world and also in the eyes of the rest of people of the world, but the land is considered as Holy site. This means if they are destroyed, Muslims should rebuild them again in the same area.

The same as ‘The sacred mosque – Kaaba "... it was built after many years of the death of the prophet.

Yes but can you see the contextual difference between the two verses?
We're talking about Jerusalem, which I believe you call Al-Quds.
The Al-Aqsa mosque was only built in 710. The Koran predates it. The Dome of the Rock was built in 690, again, after these verses were written.

 

[Bilal]

I did not justify the murdering of 81 peaceful Jews in Hebron in 1929, but we know that attack was a result of clashes in Jerusalem after the Jews decided to get Al Buraq wall or the Wailing Wall. Palestinian sources can tell you the opposite of what you claim... if you show ten pictures of Jews victims, I can show 1000s pictures of Palestinian victims.

Personally I do not support any type of violence and I do not think that any civilized human should believe in wars. If the Jews want to have their own State, they should let the rest of people to live free ... they got it on 1967 borders.

How would the establishment of the Zionist movement make your centuries-long neighbour a traitor? How does that justify attacking them in such a brutal way? Had they been European settlers on land bought from Arab landlords, would that justify murder, maim and rape?
You seem to be very understanding of these atrocities when committed by Palestinians, in contrast with violent acts by Jews. Do you honestly believe your people have not contributed one bit to the conflict between us? Do you honestly believe such brutality, regardless of its perpetrator, can be justified?
What rights did they ignore? The right to prevent peaceful settlers from living on their own land simply because they're Jewish?

 

[cefarix]

Apart from the fact that al-Aqsa Masjid is referred to in the Quran, it must not be forgotten that the Quran is not the only source of Islam. In fact, you cannot even follow Islam through only the Quran. The Quran does not tell us how to pray, or how to make the ablution for prayer, or many, many other important things in Islam. That part of Islam comes from the Ahadeeth, or traditions, of the Prophet and his Companions. These traditions are, in a way, the "explanation" of the Quran. Once we put together the Quran AND the traditions, the importance of Jerusalem in Islam becomes very clear.

 

[Bilal]

Sallah- eddin liberated Jerusalem after 88 years, but the crusaders wars started from middle of 11 the century (before the birth of Sallaheddin) till the end of 13th century. Jerusalem was the target of both sides during these wars. As you know after fall of Jerusalem in the hands of Sallaheddin, Europe prepared another large crusade to get it back. There were many kings and leaders from both sides were fighting over Jerusalem and they transferred the "war culture" from generation to other generation …. Moreover, Sallaheddin said his well documented speech '' I can not smile while Al Aqsa mosque in the hand of crusaders".

Jerusalem was in the hand of crusaders for 91 years Hijri (Islamic calendar) or 88 years, but surely the conflict about this city did not stop in 1187. The wars stopped in 1289 after Mamluk Sultans defeated the Crusaders completely.

Sallaheddin succeeded to capture and to unite Egypt, Syria and part of Iraq before liberation of Jerusalem. He was a Suffi Muslim, which means he was spiritual and non violent person as you claimed and as you got your information only from western sources.

Compare Jerusalem in 1099 , when crusaders slaughtered 60000 Muslims, 4000 Jews and several thousands of orthodox Christian inside AL Aqsa mosque with Jerusalem in 1187: Sallah-eddin paid from his own money to liberate the prisoners of crusaders and he let Jews and orthodox Christian to live peacefully in the city.

I advice you to read the main document about crusaders:
Gesta Francorum
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesta_Francorum

Jerusalem, by the way, was taken by the Crusaders in 1099 and then by Salah a-Din in 1187 - a total of 88 years, so I don't see how Muslims were fighting to liberate it for 200 years. One can argue the religious importance it had in the eyes of its liberators, but Salah a-Din was in no rush to capture it (he retreated from 2 invasions organised by Nur a-Din because he wanted to wait for Nur a-Din's death and conquer his empire), nor did he stop conquering once he had it. The territory, the routes, the political significance and the odd fact that it was in the way to Syria were just as important, if not moreso. Let's not forget the man conquered other Muslim states - I don't think that's encouraged in the Koran. I don't think he was a very devout Muslim.

 

[Bilal]

I agree completely...and I do not think there is any Muslims group can claim that Jerusalem is not Holy City in Islam.

Apart from the fact that al-Aqsa Masjid is referred to in the Quran, it must not be forgotten that the Quran is not the only source of Islam. In fact, you cannot even follow Islam through only the Quran. The Quran does not tell us how to pray, or how to make the ablution for prayer, or many, many other important things in Islam. That part of Islam comes from the Ahadeeth, or traditions, of the Prophet and his Companions. These traditions are, in a way, the "explanation" of the Quran. Once we put together the Quran AND the traditions, the importance of Jerusalem in Islam becomes very clear.