Subjective Thinking: Benefits & Interplay with Objective Thinking

[runner]

It was thought at one time that the right brain processed all our subjective thinking (stuff like intuition, perception and interpretations of our experiences) while the left hemisphere was responsible for performing objective thinking (logical, analytical). I think I've read that with MRI scans they now see that while most activity does take place in those areas, there is also some interaction going on with the opposite hemisphere at the same time. Regardless, my question is how does it benefit us to have a portion of our brain doing subjective thinking? Would we be better off being 100% objective thinkers?

 

[Office_Shredder]

When you're trying to jump across a river by going from rock to rock poking out of the water, do you find it easier to rely on intuition based on previous experience jumping, or do you prefer deriving the equations that will allow you to calculate with what force you should jump, and then hoping against hope that you're actually capable of delivering that exact force on command through your legs? One will allow you to escape the bear that's chasing you, the other will result in a very content bear with a full stomach

 

[runner]

When you're trying to jump across a river by going from rock to rock poking out of the water, do you find it easier to rely on intuition based on previous experience jumping, or do you prefer deriving the equations that will allow you to calculate with what force you should jump, and then hoping against hope that you're actually capable of delivering that exact force on command through your legs?

OS, that's an interesting example, but I'm not sure if that's an example of the subjective mind at work as much as it is of the neuromuscular system performing a task based on previously having memorized a motor skill... what's often called 'muscle memory'.

Muscle memory is acquired over time through repitition of the skill and processing in the brain until the task becomes automatic. Some examples include brushing your teeth, swinging a bat and hitting a ball, running and hurdling over an object, driving a car, etc. The reactions become automatic after initially undergoing repititious practice until no conscious thinking is involved.

 

[Office_Shredder]

Ok, true, I guess I didn't word my post very well. You're at a river and are considering going over. Are you able to? That's not a muscle memory problem, that's an intuition problem based on practical experience. The decision to jump or not is something your brain has to make

 

[noumed]

The decision to jump or not is something your brain has to make

"Free your mind." - Morpheus

 

[runner]

If I had a bear chasing me down as I was approaching the river, I would just react and take my chances on the river. There would be no subjective or objective thinking involved. It's kind of like if a car was heading towards me, I would try to get out of the way without much thinking involved.

 

[Moonbear]

If I had a bear chasing me down as I was approaching the river, I would just react and take my chances on the river. There would be no subjective or objective thinking involved. It's kind of like if a car was heading towards me, I would try to get out of the way without much thinking involved.

But you ARE thinking the whole time, and that's the point. Quick judgement calls often need to be subjective, because one doesn't have the time to carefully think through all the options and make a more objective decision. Subjective decisions means decisions based on previous experience rather than decisions based on currently presented factual evidence. When you don't have time to get out a ruler and measure the distance across a river, or even a small stream, and calculate your exact jumping distance, you have to rely on previous experience of approximately how far you can jump and whether that is the distance across the stream.

 

[CaptainQuasar]

I think runner's got a lead on the point of it all. Subjective thinking is what prevents you from being torn apart by a grizzly bear while thinking to yourself, "Hmmm, Ursus arctos horribilis is a vital part of the local ecosystem and probably needs to begin storing up energy for the long winter right around now. My, look at those incisors, what a magnificent specimen of carnivorous evolution."

⚛​

 

[Moonbear]

I think runner's got a lead on the point of it all. Subjective thinking is what prevents you from being torn apart by a grizzly bear while thinking to yourself, "Hmmm, Ursus arctos horribilis is a vital part of the local ecosystem and probably needs to begin storing up energy for the long winter right around now. My, look at those incisors, what a magnificent specimen of carnivorous evolution."

⚛​

Much worse if he pulls out a stopwatch to determine the average running speed of the bear before deciding if he can outrun the bear (at which time the inevitable answer is "No.")

 

[Andre]

Much worse if he pulls out a stopwatch to determine the average running speed of the bear before deciding if he can outrun the bear (at which time the inevitable answer is "No.")

But that's very objective thinking. Wouldn't it be enough to think: got to run now and think later?

anyway

how does it benefit us to have a portion of our brain doing subjective thinking? Would we be better off being 100% objective thinkers?

Your family and friends would be more than happy you thinking subjectively in favor of them, but science is severely suffering from subjective thinking.

 

[runner]

You make a good point Moonbear. BTW, I was thinking in terms of a river with deep enough water in it to possibly slow down a bear. I don't think a stream would make much difference to a charging bear. I also don't know if the rush of adrenaline from the beast breathing down a person's back gives them the luxury to do much more than just react and take their chances... it's either in the drink or you face the 900 lb monster. Is reacting in a situation like that based on some prior subjective thinking... could be, so I will side with you and OS on the fact that the subjective mind can play a role in safety and survival.

What about love which most say is a subjective thing?

 

[Moonbear]

But that's very objective thinking. Wouldn't it be enough to think: got to run now and think later?

Exactly. I was illustrating the point there of why objective thinking is not always the best approach.

 

[runner]

Your family and friends would be more than happy you thinking subjectively in favor of them, but science is severely suffering from subjective thinking.

Good point!

 

[runner]

I think runner's got a lead on the point of it all. Subjective thinking is what prevents you from being torn apart by a grizzly bear while thinking to yourself, "Hmmm, Ursus arctos horribilis is a vital part of the local ecosystem and probably needs to begin storing up energy for the long winter right around now. My, look at those incisors, what a magnificent specimen of carnivorous evolution."

⚛​

LOL... true.

 

[runner]

So, if falling in love is a subjective thing, does it mean that the subjective mind also plays a role in the propagation of the species?

 

[Andre]

Exactly. I was illustrating the point there of why objective thinking is not always the best approach.

[joke off][serious on] Point here is conditional reflex for survival. Many canned situations require instant reactions (reflexes): if danger then fight or flee. Don't think, don't analyse, just follow preprogrammed reactions to preprogrammed contingencies. Training helps to sharpen up those reflexes.

 

[Moonbear]

[joke off][serious on] Point here is conditional reflex for survival. Many canned situations require instant reactions (reflexes): if danger then fight or flee. Don't think, don't analyse, just follow preprogrammed reactions to preprogrammed contingencies. Training helps to sharpen up those reflexes.

Since you turned serious on...they aren't reflexes. A reflex is when you pull your hand away from something hot before realizing it's hot. Running from a threat requires thinking and realizing it's a threat.

As for emotions, that's different than subjective thinking. Emotions are controlled by the limbic system of the brain, which is spread throughout several areas, not just one place or one side.

 

[Andre]

Since you turned serious on...they aren't reflexes. A reflex is when you pull your hand away from something hot before realizing it's hot. Running from a threat requires thinking and realizing it's a threat.

As for emotions, that's different than subjective thinking. Emotions are controlled by the limbic system of the brain, which is spread throughout several areas, not just one place or one side.

Really?? then please explain why you don't have to think hitting the brakes hard when a child crosses the road in front of you.

 

[WaveJumper]

Really?? then please explain why you don't have to think hitting the brakes hard when a child crosses the road in front of you.

I don't agree that you would not think first. Do you hit the brakes hard for every nylon bag that suddenly appears in your lane?

 

[Evo]

Sorry to tell you guys this, but you would all be dead if you encountered a bear. You never try to run, swim, or climb a tree to get away from a bear, the bear will beat you.

Here is the correct way to handle a bear attack. Objective thinking will save your life.

Running might trigger a chase response, and you're not going to outrun a bear.

Step1 Remain calm if you spot a bear; avoid sudden movements.

Step2 Back away slowly, avoid eye contact, and speak to the bear in a calm, quiet voice.

Step3 Throw something onto the ground (for example, a camera) if the bear pursues you, as this may distract the bear and allow you to escape.

Step4 Keep your backpack on; it may protect your body if you're attacked.

Step5 Don't climb a tree. Black bears can climb trees, and trees found in grizzly country generally have weak trunks and lack low branches.

Step6 Drop to the ground in the fetal position with your hands behind your neck if attacked. Stay silent and don't move.

Step7 Roll with the bear's blows and return to your motionless fetal position.

http://www.ehow.com/how_240_survive-encounter-with.html

 

[Andre]

Sorry to tell you guys this, but you would all be dead if you encountered a bear. You never try to run, swim, or climb a tree to get away from a bear, the bear will beat you...etc

You're omitting the first step: when in bear country, make noise all the time, avoiding to surprise bears forcing them to think about fighting or fleeing.

 

[runner]

Sorry to tell you guys this, but you would all be dead if you encountered a bear. You never try to run, swim, or climb a tree to get away from a bear, the bear will beat you.

Here is the correct way to handle a bear attack. Objective thinking will save your life.

Running might trigger a chase response, and you're not going to outrun a bear.

Step1 Remain calm if you spot a bear; avoid sudden movements.

Step2 Back away slowly, avoid eye contact, and speak to the bear in a calm, quiet voice.

Step3 Throw something onto the ground (for example, a camera) if the bear pursues you, as this may distract the bear and allow you to escape.

Step4 Keep your backpack on; it may protect your body if you're attacked.

Step5 Don't climb a tree. Black bears can climb trees, and trees found in grizzly country generally have weak trunks and lack low branches.

Step6 Drop to the ground in the fetal position with your hands behind your neck if attacked. Stay silent and don't move.

Step7 Roll with the bear's blows and return to your motionless fetal position.

http://www.ehow.com/how_240_survive-encounter-with.html

when dealing with bears, the left brain rules

 

[Andre]

I don't agree that you would not think first. Do you hit the brakes hard for every nylon bag that suddenly appears in your lane?

does:

If nylon bag: no problem, don't react

if child: brake now

really needs thinking?

 

[Evo]

A more difficult scenario would be "zombie attack". I'd say run, swim, or climb a tree, I've never seen a zombie do any of those.

Oh, sorry, I didn't know we had returned to hitting the brakes.

 

[Moonbear]

Really?? then please explain why you don't have to think hitting the brakes hard when a child crosses the road in front of you.

You DO think, you just do it quickly, and may not need to involve as much of a conscious thought process. That's a LONG way from being a reflex. A reflex means there are only a couple neurons involved, where the sensation of something at a limb is not processed by the brain before a motor function of the same limb occurs...or an eye (i.e., eyeblink reflex).

That is NOT the case for hitting the brake when a child crosses the street. You need to see the child, process that visual information, realize the location of the child relative to your vehicle, and then move your foot to step on a brake pedal, which requires learning and memory of where that brake pedal is, proprioceptive responses of where your foot is since you're not looking down at the pedal to find it, and processing of sensory input to determine if your motor output has applied sufficient force to stop the vehicle, while maintaining control of the steering wheel at the same time. This is a highly complex process, and one of the reasons reaction time is NOT instantaneous in such a situation, and a reason that not everyone is successful at stopping the car in such a situation.

 

[lisab]

A more difficult scenario would be "zombie attack". I'd say run, swim, or climb a tree, I've never seen a zombie do any of those.

Oh, sorry, I didn't know we had returned to hitting the brakes.

But would you hit the brakes if you saw a zombie? Think of the mess on your car .

 

[noumed]

You're omitting the first step: when in bear country, make noise all the time, avoiding to surprise bears forcing them to think about fighting or fleeing.

Yelling "Yo, Bear!" the whole time? Sounds like something that crazy guy from Man Vs. Wild would do.

 

[Moonbear]

Sorry to tell you guys this, but you would all be dead if you encountered a bear. You never try to run, swim, or climb a tree to get away from a bear, the bear will beat you.

Here is the correct way to handle a bear attack. Objective thinking will save your life.

Running might trigger a chase response, and you're not going to outrun a bear.

Step1 Remain calm if you spot a bear; avoid sudden movements.

Step2 Back away slowly, avoid eye contact, and speak to the bear in a calm, quiet voice.

Step3 Throw something onto the ground (for example, a camera) if the bear pursues you, as this may distract the bear and allow you to escape.

Step4 Keep your backpack on; it may protect your body if you're attacked.

Step5 Don't climb a tree. Black bears can climb trees, and trees found in grizzly country generally have weak trunks and lack low branches.

Step6 Drop to the ground in the fetal position with your hands behind your neck if attacked. Stay silent and don't move.

Step7 Roll with the bear's blows and return to your motionless fetal position.

http://www.ehow.com/how_240_survive-encounter-with.html

Except that those are all examples of subjective thinking. You are making a judgement that the bear you've just encountered will react like all other bears to determine how you will respond, without knowing anything about this specific bear.

Step 7 would be the same regardless of whether this method is successful or not.

 

[Andre]

You DO think, you just do it quickly, and may not need to involve as much of a conscious thought process. That's a LONG way from being a reflex. A reflex means there are only a couple neurons involved, where the sensation of something at a limb is not processed by the brain before a motor function of the same limb occurs...or an eye (i.e., eyeblink reflex).

That is NOT the case for hitting the brake when a child crosses the street. You need to see the child, process that visual information, realize the location of the child relative to your vehicle, and then move your foot to step on a brake pedal, which requires learning and memory of where that brake pedal is, proprioceptive responses of where your foot is since you're not looking down at the pedal to find it, and processing of sensory input to determine if your motor output has applied sufficient force to stop the vehicle, while maintaining control of the steering wheel at the same time. This is a highly complex process, and one of the reasons reaction time is NOT instantaneous in such a situation, and a reason that not everyone is successful at stopping the car in such a situation.

Thanks MB, that's an excellent description of the conditional reflex, which does not require analysis and complex decision taking processes. It's the same when instructed and trained to hit some switch when some red light turns on. Not nearly the same as: if pain then pull back hand.

 

[lisab]

Yelling "Yo, Bear!" the whole time? Sounds like something that crazy guy from Man Vs. Wild would do.

Talk, sing, wear a bear bell.

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/7338/bearbellskb1.jpg

Though, last summer I came across a bear while wearing one...

 

[runner]

So, if falling in love is a subjective thing, does it mean that the subjective mind also plays a role in the propagation of the species?

any toughts on that one?

 

[Proton Soup]

any toughts on that one?

yeah, the human brain doesn't fully mature until your mid-20's. before that, evaluating risk and making rational decisions is compromised. sexual fertility is also at its peak before this. so young people follow their passions and make babies. and life goes on.

 

[CaptainQuasar]

I would punch the bear in the face, then judo-chop it in the neck. Then, uh, die.

But speaking of conditional reflexes, I was just thinking the other day about the several paramedics I've known. They have to move pretty quickly and urgently but also follow very specific and sometimes complex medical procedures based upon a wide variety of diagnostic information (and they also need to have remembered to do all of the diagnostic tests that the situation calls for), which they really have to learn by repeating again and again and again until it's completely automatic.

It's like, "If the pupils don't dilate and the blood pressure is between this number and this number and the pulse is between this number and this number, and there's a tiny spike at this location in the echocardiogram, you have to do this and this and this, and if that doesn't work you're allowed to choose between administering these two drugs in these specific doses, and here are the reasons you might choose one drug over another..." and there are just tons and tons of these complex decision trees that they must have down pat for when they're faced for that situation. (That fake example kind of makes it sound like they're just blindly following someone else's instructions, but not so - they are trying to guess what's gone wrong and they have extensive medical knowledge, at least compared to a layman, but there are narrow constraints on how exactly they can treat the patient and they're often forced to hedge their bets.)

And on top of that, they also get to rush to some calls and discover it's just a drunk person acting flakey, who then barfs all over them.

So it was occurring to me that many of the people who are paramedics are probably by nature fairly impulsive and reckless, which allows them to keep up with the speed and urgency the job requires, but the training puts some controls on that impulsivity and recklessness to ensure that they do the right thing at the right time.

⚛​

 

[fuzzyfelt]

Sorry about a wiki link, but interesting,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Libet

 

[runner]

When a scientist makes a hypothesis, are they demonstrating intuition from their subjective mind about how they are interpreting the data?