Supremum Property (AoC) .... etc .... Yet a further question

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the Supremum Property, the Archimedean Property, and the Nested Intervals Theorem as presented in Houshang H. Sohrab's "Basic Real Analysis." Participants explore interpretations and implications of Theorem 2.1.45, particularly focusing on the proof's assumptions and reasoning related to the uniqueness of the intersection of nested intervals.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Peter questions whether Sohrab's statement about the uniqueness of the intersection implies that if ##u < v##, then ##\bigcap_{ n = 1}^{ \infty } I_n = \{ u \}## is valid.
  • Peter suggests that the choice of ##u < v## is arbitrary and could similarly apply to ##v < u##, seeking confirmation of this interpretation.
  • Peter's reasoning that ##v - u > \frac{1}{2^n}## follows from the Archimedean Property is presented, but he seeks justification for this step.
  • Another participant agrees with Peter's reasoning about the relationship between ##v - u## and ##\frac{1}{2^n}##, noting that it is straightforward to show that ##2^n > n## for all natural numbers.
  • This participant also mentions that the sequence ##(1/2^n)_{n \in \mathbb{N}}## converges to 0, reflecting the Archimedean property that there are no arbitrarily small positive numbers.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying interpretations of the proof and its implications, with some agreement on the reasoning regarding the uniqueness of the intersection and the properties of the sequences involved. However, the discussion remains unresolved on several points, particularly regarding the justification of certain steps in the proof.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the reasoning involves assumptions about the properties of real numbers and the behavior of sequences, which may not be explicitly stated in the original theorem. The discussion highlights the need for clarity in the implications of the Archimedean Property and the uniqueness of the intersection.

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I am reading Houshang H. Sohrab's book: "Basic Real Analysis" (Second Edition).

I am focused on Chapter 2: Sequences and Series of Real Numbers ... ...

I need help with yet a further issue/problem with Theorem 2.1.45 concerning the Supremum Property (AoC), the Archimedean Property, and the Nested Intervals Theorem ... ...

Theorem 2.1.45 reads as follows:
?temp_hash=7126dd4fe634af5d5175f2a8033b1af2.png

?temp_hash=7126dd4fe634af5d5175f2a8033b1af2.png
In the above proof by Sohrab, we read the following:

" ... ...The Nested Intervals Theorem now implies that ##\bigcap_{ n = 1}^{ \infty } I_n = \{ u \}## for a unique ##u \in \mathbb{R}##. Indeed, if ##u \lt v## and ##u,v \in \bigcap_{ n = 1}^{ \infty } I_n##, then ##v - u \gt \frac{1}{2n}## for some ##n \in \mathbb{N}##, which contradicts ##u, v \in I_n##, since ##I_n## has length ##2^{ -n }##. ... ... "I am unsure of Sohrab's process and assumptions as he is moving through the proof in the above quote ... could someone confirm (or otherwise) my interpretations as follows ... there are essentially 4 questions ( Q1, Q2, Q3 and Q4 respectively ...) ... ...First issue ... ... I assume that when Sohrab writes: "Indeed, if ##u \lt v## ... etc etc ... " ... he is verifying his statement that ##\bigcap_{ n = 1}^{ \infty } I_n = \{ u \}## for a unique ##u \in \mathbb{R}##? Is that right? (Q1) Second issue ... ... when Sohrab writes: "Indeed, if ##u \lt v## ... etc etc ... " ... ... he could have said ##u \gt v## ... but he is just taking ##u \lt v## as an example ... and we are left to infer that ##u \gt v## works similarly ... in other words there is no reason that ##u## is taken as less than ##v## as against taking ##v \lt u## ... ... Is that right? (Q2)


Third issue ... ... Sohrab then asserts that ##v - u \gt \frac{1}{ 2^n }## ... ... and I am assuming this follows because ...

##u \lt v##

##\Longrightarrow v - u \gt 0##

##\Longrightarrow v - u \gt \frac{1}{n}## for some ##n \in \mathbb{N}## ... (Corollary 2.1.32 (b) Archimedean Property ... see scanned text insert below)

##\Longrightarrow v - u \gt \frac{1}{ 2^n }## ... ... ... ( Is this valid? (Q3) ... looks OK ... but justification ?

So indeed ... given we are doing analysis ... how do we justify ##\frac{1}{n} \gt \frac{1}{ 2^n }## or ##2^n \gt n##?

and further ... is my interpretation above for the third issue correct (Q4)


Help will be appreciated ...

Peter==========================================================================================The above theorem concerns the Supremum Property, the Archimedean Property and the Nested Intervals Theorem ... so to give readers the context and notation regarding the above post I am posting the basic information on these properties/theorems ...
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  • Sohrab - 2 - Theorem 2.1.45 ... - PART 2 ... ....png
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  • Sohrab - Axiom of Completeness ... Supremum Property ....png
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  • Sohrab - Theorem 2.1.31 - Archimedean Property ... ....png
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  • Sohrab - Theorem 2.1.43 ... Nested Intervals Theorem ....png
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I'm only going to address Q1 and Q2 in this post. Really, since we know the diameter of the nested sequences converges to 0, we also know such a unique ##u## exists. Probably for pedagogical purposes, he shows that there cannot be two elements in the infinite intersection. Because these two elements ##u, v## are arbitrary anyway, there is no need to show both cases ##u<v## AND ##v<u##.
 
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With regard to the fact that ##v-u>2^{-n}##, your reasoning is sound. It is easy to show that ##2^n>n## for all natural numbers. First, ##2^0=1>0##. Second, ##2^n>n \implies 2^{n+1}>n+1##. Adding 1 to the antecedent, ##2^n+1>n+1##. Since ##2 \cdot 2^n > 2^n+1## is true whenever ##n>0## (verify this by subtracting ##2^n## and taking ##\log_2##), we know that ##2^{n+1}>n+1## as desired.

This reasoning is a bit tedious, though. It's pretty obvious that ##(1/2^n)_{n \in \mathbb{N}} \to 0##,and any such sequence must get smaller than any given positive number—this is the spirit of the Archimedean property: there are no arbitrarily small numbers. Therefore, I imagine he took for granted that there existed a ##v-u>1/2^n## for some n.

Let me know if you have follow up questions.
 
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Thanks for your guidance and support Someone2841 ... really helpful ...

Peter
 

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