Tensorial Calculation and antisymmetric tensors

  • Context: Graduate 
  • Thread starter Thread starter vnikoofard
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Calculation Tensors
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the relationship between antisymmetric tensors and the conditions under which a vector field can be expressed as the gradient of a scalar function. Participants explore the implications of the equation \(\tilde{W}_{\mu\nu}=0\) and its connection to the expression \(V_{\mu}=\partial_{\mu}\lambda\), referencing a specific paper and concepts such as Stokes' theorem and Poincaré's Lemma.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question how \(V_{\mu}=\partial_{\mu}\lambda\) can be derived from \(\tilde{W}_{\mu\nu}=0\).
  • One participant suggests that \(\partial_{\nu} \tilde{W}^{\mu \nu} = 0\) might be the intended statement, leading to a discussion about Stokes' theorem in four-dimensional space-time.
  • Another participant explains the relationship between \(\tilde{W}_{\mu \nu}\) and \(W_{\mu \nu}\), indicating that if \(\tilde{W}_{\mu \nu} = 0\), then \(W_{\mu \nu} = 0\) follows.
  • It is noted that the condition \(\partial_{\mu} V_{\nu} - \partial_{\nu} V_{\mu} = 0\) can be integrated over a surface, leading to a line integral that suggests implications for the vector field \(V_{\mu}\).
  • One participant asserts that \(W_{\mu \nu} = 0\) is a necessary condition for \(V_{\mu} = \partial_{\mu} \lambda\) and discusses its sufficiency locally, referencing Poincaré's Lemma.
  • Several participants express interest in further understanding the integral and its implications.
  • There is a request for recommendations on textbooks related to topology and related mathematical concepts.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying levels of understanding regarding the implications of the equations discussed. While some agree on the necessity of conditions for expressing \(V_{\mu}\) in terms of \(\lambda\), others debate the sufficiency of these conditions, indicating that multiple views remain on the topic.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge limitations in their understanding of topology and related mathematics, which may affect their interpretations of the discussed concepts.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be useful for individuals interested in advanced topics in theoretical physics, particularly those exploring the mathematical foundations of field theories and tensor calculus.

vnikoofard
Messages
12
Reaction score
0
Hi Friends
I am reading the following paper
http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/9705122
In the page 4 he says that

[itex]\tilde{W}_{\mu\nu}=0\Rightarrow V_{\mu}=\partial_{\mu}\lambda[/itex]

Where [itex]\tilde{W}^{\mu\nu}\equiv\frac{1}{2}\epsilon^{\mu \nu\rho\sigma}W_{\rho\sigma}[/itex] and [itex]W_{\mu\nu}\equiv\partial_{[\mu}V_{\nu]}[/itex] and [itex]\epsilon[/itex] is antisymmetric Levi-Civita tensor.

The above expression is a general argument and it is not related to the paper. I can not understand how can we drive [itex]V_{\mu}=\partial_{\mu}\lambda[/itex] from [itex]\tilde{W}_{\mu\nu}=0[/itex]
Would someone please explain it for me
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Are you sure it doesn't say
[tex] \partial_{\nu} \tilde{W}^{\mu \nu} = 0[/tex]
?

EDIT:

Oh, sorry, I saw that there is a V and a W, and the W is the anti-symmetrized derivative.

Do you know Stokes' theorem in 4-dimensional space-time?
 
Last edited:
Yes, I am sure. :( You can check it in the mentioned paper.
 
Unfortunately I do not know. Is it related to Stokes's theorem?
 
First of all, there is a one-to-one correspondence between [itex]\tilde{W}_{\mu \nu}[/itex], and [itex]W_{\mu \nu}[/itex]. You just showed how to find [itex]\tilde{W}[/itex] if you know W. But:
[tex] \epsilon^{\mu \nu \rho \pi} \, \tilde{W}_{\rho \pi} = \frac{1}{2} \epsilon^{\mu \nu \rho \pi} \, \epsilon_{\rho \pi \sigma \tau} \, W^{\sigma \tau} = -\left(\delta^{\mu}_{\sigma} \, \delta^{\nu}_{\tau} - \delta^{\mu}_{\tau} \, \delta^{\nu}_{\sigma} \right) \, W^{\sigma \tau} = -W^{\mu \nu} + W^{\nu \mu} = -2 \, W^{\mu \nu}[/tex]
[tex] W^{\mu \nu} = -\frac{1}{2} \, \epsilon^{\mu \nu \rho \pi} \, \tilde{W}_{\rho \pi}[/tex]

Therefore, if you say [itex]\tilde{W}_{\mu \nu} = 0[/itex], then, so is [itex]W_{\mu \nu} = 0[/itex].
 
Then, you will have:
[tex] \partial_{\mu} V_{\nu} - \partial_{\nu} V_{\mu} = 0[/tex]

Integrate this over an arbitrary 2-dimensional surface with an element [itex]df^{\mu \nu} = -df^{\nu \mu}[/itex], and convert it to a line integral over the boundary of the surface. You should get:
[tex] \oint{V_{\mu} \, dx^{\mu}} = 0[/tex]

Do you know what this means?
 
Thanks! Now I got it. When [itex]W_{\mu \nu} =0[/itex] means [itex]\partial_\mu V_{\nu} -\partial_{\nu}V_{\mu}=0[/itex]. So for having this expression we must suppose that [itex]V_{\mu} =\partial_\mu\lambda[/itex] where [itex]\lambda[/itex] is a scalar. Because we can change order of derivations [itex]\partial_{\mu}, \partial_{\nu}[/itex]. Is it correct?
 
Would you please explain more about the integral? It seems interesting.
 
vnikoofard said:
Thanks! Now I got it. When [itex]W_{\mu \nu} =0[/itex] means [itex]\partial_\mu V_{\nu} -\partial_{\nu}V_{\mu}=0[/itex]. So for having this expression we must suppose that [itex]V_{\mu} =\partial_\mu\lambda[/itex] where [itex]\lambda[/itex] is a scalar. Because we can change order of derivations [itex]\partial_{\mu}, \partial_{\nu}[/itex]. Is it correct?

No, what you are proving is that [itex]W_{\mu \nu} = 0[/itex] is a necessary condition for [itex]V_{\mu} = \partial_{\mu} \lambda[/itex], which I though is trivial to show (because derivatives commute). But, I was trying to point out that it is also a sufficient condition. Well, locally at least (see Poincare's Lemma).
 
  • #10
Dear Dickfore, I am really poor on Topology and such kinds of mathematics. Recently I decided to begin studying this topics. Can you please suggest me some good textbooks for self-study. I am thinking about 3rd edition of Frankle's book: "Geometry of Physics".
 
  • #11
i don't know what to recommend, sorry.
 
  • #12
Thank you again for your help, my friend!
 
  • #13
Frankle is nice, Nakahara is also very good for selfstudy; at least the chapters until Fibre Bundles. After that it becomes a bit wuzzy.
 
  • #14
Thanks Haushofer! :)
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
2K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
2K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
5K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
3K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
2K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
7K