kaiser soze
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Mathematics was developed and taught long before academic institutions existed, yet its fundamental concepts and foundationds are still valid.
Kaiser.
Kaiser.
Yes, it developed by people who where not forced by external methods or exteral reasons or lack of time.kaiser soze said:Mathematics was developed and taught long before academic institutions existed.
Not all of them.yet its fundamental concepts and foundationds are still valid.
In the reals, in base 10 representations, 0.999... and 1 are equivalent, and equal in this sense. they may be taken to represent different cauchy sequences, but they are unequivocally the same real number, Terrabyte. Please, offer a reason, mathematically sound, as to why they are not equal.
the academic system does its best to force its methods on the minds of the students
Am I an academic institute that gets money for my knowledge and forces people to show that they got it, by using an industry of examinations that if they do not pass them they will not get their diploma?Hurkyl said:Do you see the irony in that you are trying to force your ideas on others?
Then you don't follow what's happening. Apparantly, this is the first time that light has been both a wave and a particle and not either/or.Lama said:Welcome my dear ex-xian,
I invite you to continue our dialog here or in your forum.
An information of this recent experiment you can find here:
http://drauh.typepad.com/blog/2004/04/
http://www.kathryncramer.com/wblog/archives/000530.html
Since Quantum elements are both wave and particle, no one of these properties can completely disappear, so I do not see any new point in this recent experiment.
You've never even come close to showing this.Lama said:Yes, it developed by people who where not forced by external methods or exteral reasons or lack of time.
Not all of them.
There's no flaw in the system. When I was taking my calculus classes, my teachers always made a point to emphasize that when we say a sequence or series equals a number, we really mean that the sequence has limit of that number. Saying "equals" is just shorthand. That's not to say, however, that 0.99... is not equal to 1.terrabyte said:you're essentially limiting the structure of your numerical system by this "entity" we call infinity. now, infinity is a useful term, we use it frequently to extend expressions out to incredible precision, but since the term itself is not closed, there lacks a decided "conclusion" for formulas utilizing infinity. thus any formulas that use infinity are relegated to being approximations, albeit really damn good ones.
the limit of a sequence is something that is NEVER reached. hence defined as such 1 IS the limit of .9+.09+.009...
but from that statement above it's logically sound that since it is NEVER reached, the sequence can NEVER be equal to 1.
the flaw is in the system, whether we choose to fix it or ignore it is the question...
Thanks, I think everyone knows this. And this is totally not what I'm talking about. You should actually read up on this topic before you try to discuss it anymore.Lama said:This is not the first time that both wave and particle properties of a quantum element, simultaneously appearing in a physical experiment.
When both stils are opened and we check the photons after they passé both of them, we can change gradually the wave picture to a particle picture, and vice versa.
My opinion is that it's juvevile and wrong.Lama said:ex-xian,
I'll be glad to get your opinion on https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=267089&postcount=101
See my edit. Also, I find that you saying that your fractal analogy is better or less abstract than a rigorous mathematical proof to be absurd in the highest degree.Lama said:Please give your detailed explanation why do you think it is wrong?
Can you please show how I force you to agree with me?
If we use a structural point of view in this case, then 0.9999... is a one dimensional path of a base 10 fractal, that exists upon infinitely many scale levels that cannot reach 1.
Also we can say that 0.999... = 0.9+0.09+0.009+0.0009+... and we can clearly see that this sequence cannot reach 1.
Therefore 0.999... < 1.
Another example:
Please look at this beautiful Koch Fractal http://members.cox.net/fractalenc/fr6g6s.577m2.html
Now let us say the there is a 1-1 map between each fractal level of 0.9999... to each different blue level of Koch Fractal.
0.9999... = 1 if and only if we cannot find anymore a 1-1 map between some 0. ...9 to some Koch Fractal blue level
Since Koch Fractal can be found in infinitely many blue levels and each blue level has a 1-1 map with some 0. ...9 fractal level, then we can conclude that 0.999... < 1.
Also we can say that 0.999... = 1 if and only if the outer contour of this multi-leveled Koch Fractal can be a smooth curve with no sharp edges.
It is clear that the outer contour line is not a smooth contour in any arbitrary examined scale level.
Therefore 0.999... < 1.
From this model you also can understand what is a "leap".
In short, any transition between a non smooth curve to a smooth curve, cannot be done but by a phase transition leap that also can be described by a smooth_XOR_no-smooth connection.
This model is better than any "abstract" mathematical definition, which leads us to "prove" that 0.9999... = 1.
Also by this "proof" we simply ignore infinitely many information forms that can be found in 0.9999... fractal.
[/quote]Now think how many information forms are ignored by this trivial and sterile approach of standard Matt (oops, Math).
ex-xian said:See my edit. Also, I find that you saying that your fractal analogy is better or less abstract than a rigorous mathematical proof to be absurd in the highest degree.
terrabyte said:the limit of a sequence is something that is NEVER reached. hence defined as such 1 IS the limit of .9+.09+.009...
There is no contradiction here beacue 0.333... < 1/3 for the same reasons that 0.999... < 1, which clearly can be understood here http://p071.ezboard.com/fthelanguageofmathematicsfrm2.showMessage?topicID=2.topicex-xian said:Assume that .99.. < 1. Then 1/3(.999) < 1/3 (1), and .33... < 1/3. A contradiction...