Music The Future of Music: Wonderings on 2 Centuries Ahead

[Ivan Seeking]

I often wonder what music will be like in a century or two. In fact I wonder if humans will have anything to do with music, beyond listening. Will we eventually write a program that is the perfect composer? Will all acoustic instruments be abandoned and replaced with electronic ones, or will we even continue to play instruments manually? And what of singing? Will we continue to sing, or will the computer do it better than any human could, some day?

 

[zoobyshoe]

I think, yes, there will be music that is as completely computer generated from start to scratch as it can be, but at the same time all the usual "hand-made" music will continue as strong as ever.

If you know any groups of kids (teen-twenties) everyone still plays the guitar, many of them acoustic guitar, and sing, too. The main difference I see because of the electronic's revolution is that today each and every garage band or solo performer can put out their own personal CD, try to sell it, or just pass it out to friends and relatives.

I don't think live performance, and the real human voice will ever go out of fashion. San Diego, at least, has tons of clubs that feature live music.

 

[Azael]

I guess it dependce on if you think computers eventualy will be able to do everything humans do and maby even better.

To create new good music you would need a good AI that understands what people want to listen to, but even then there is no perfect composition so there can be no perfect composer imo.

 

[Azael]

Sorry if this is a bit of a hichjacking of the thread :( But its kind of related.
But I wonder if we will have any real human actors left in 20-30 years or so or if all movies will be 100% computer generated.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Sorry if this is a bit of a hichjacking of the thread :( But its kind of related.
But I wonder if we will have any real human actors left in 20-30 years or so or if all movies will be 100% computer generated.

Computer averaged faces are found to be more attractive than real faces.

Computers don't whine and take big paychecks...of course programmers do.

Already the most popular voices are being recorded and digitized for future use in either their original form, or perhaps some computer enhanced or composite form that generates the greatest appeal.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

As we begin to understand the brain, doesn't it make sense that a computer might one day write the most beautiful music?

 

[Azael]

Computer averaged faces are found to be more attractive than real faces.

Computers don't whine and take big paychecks...of course programmers do.

Already the most popular voices are being recorded and digitized for future use in either their original form, or perhaps some computer enhanced or composite form that generates the greatest appeal.

that leads to another more scary thing. If we soon can computer generate environments that look just like the real one without any great expense, how will we ever be able to trust ANYTHING we se on the media.

But about the original topic. How could a computer ever get the skill of someone like bethoven in composing music? Dont we have to identify what made the greats great before we can program a computer to be great?

 

[hypnagogue]

There was a thread posted recently in the Metaphysics & Epistemology forum that touches on this topic tangentially: Can computer music "speak" to us?

In it is a link to an article by Douglas Hofstadter talking about this issue of whether computers can generate music as well as human composers, and apparently they're getting pretty close: http://www.unc.edu/~mumukshu/gandhi/gandhi/hofstadter.htm

 

[z-component]

Ivan, you're such a futurist! I like these types of questions because they make me use my imagination, but I also think it's kind of depressing how simple things are taken away from humanity and given to computers. I sure hope that something as old (yet still so popular) as music would not be discontinued.

 

[moose]

I can't think of a single song released in the past ten years which was *really* good... :/

 

[hypnagogue]

I can't think of a single song released in the past ten years which was *really* good... :/

Depends on your tastes I guess. If you like rock there's been some good stuff released if you know where to look.

 

[zoobyshoe]

As we begin to understand the brain, doesn't it make sense that a computer might one day write the most beautiful music?

You play any instruments or write music, Ivan?

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

I agree with Zoob that it wouldn't ever completely fall to comuters. Personally I prefer music with real instruments to electronic music.
Tom Waits has a cult following. He's gotten quite experimental with his music. He utilizes discordance, off tune notes, and that incredibly raspy gravely voice. I don't think he even sings completely on key all the time either though I don't know how to sing myself so it's hard to determine.

 

[moose]

Depends on your tastes I guess. If you like rock there's been some good stuff released if you know where to look.

Name some :)

I don't mean just "good" songs... I mean spectacular ones.

 

[CosminaPrisma]

Musical taste has got to be a really subjective thing.

 

[Astronuc]

I often wonder what music will be like in a century or two. In fact I wonder if humans will have anything to do with music, beyond listening. Will we eventually write a program that is the perfect composer? Will all acoustic instruments be abandoned and replaced with electronic ones, or will we even continue to play instruments manually? And what of singing? Will we continue to sing, or will the computer do it better than any human could, some day?

I am kind of partial to classical rock pre ~1972, and maybe stretch it to late 70's or early 80's based on a few exceptions rather than the general rule.

I can't think of "beyond listening" - then it would not be music.

Even computers can't match the sound of certain horns, string instruments, or the human voice. Think if Greg Lake of Emerson, Lake and Palmer, especially side 2 of Tarkus, or side 2 of Brain Salad Surgery.

Of course, one can do some fantastic things with a sythesizer, e.g. Keith Emerson of ELP, Mike Pinder of the Moody Blues, Rick Wakeman of Yes.

I prefer the sound of a good electric bass, or a stand up double bass.

I think a combination of sythesizer, electronic instruments and the electric and bass guitars work well, and I hope they are around for a long time.

I also like chant and chorale.

 

[[Quadratic]]

Name some :)

I don't mean just "good" songs... I mean spectacular ones.

How many spectacular songs have you heard, period? I can only think of a few songs that I would consider "spectacular"

 

[zoobyshoe]

I agree with Zoob that it wouldn't ever completely fall to comuters. Personally I prefer music with real instruments to electronic music.

Yes. Computer music has just become a new type among the others, and I doubt it will push them out and replace them.

If I dug I'm sure I could eventually come up with many quotes from the 1800's predicting the death of drawing and painting with the advent of photography. It never happened, though, because it turns out the measure of a good drawing or painting was never it's literal realism, the forte of the photograph, but always how a given individual artist expresses his/her take on reality. That's never clearer or more interesting than when channeled through the physiological mechanics of the artists own body.

Same with music. It's much more exiting and intriquing to listen to the interplay of, say, Leo Kottke and his acoustic guitars, than it is to hear "perfect" music. You mention Tom Waits. People want more than perfection and beauty, they also want character. I once read Lotte Lenya described as having "an impossibly ugly voice," perfect for the roles she played and music she sang. While I think "ugly" is the wrong word for her voice, it points out that successful music is frequently a matter, not of beauty and perfection, but of the right balance of the sweet and salty, just as we might say it's a matter of the right balance of the loud and the soft, or of fast and slow, or dissonant and consonant.

I can't see it would be easier to write a "character" program for music than to just let it take place in nature. Stuff happens that no one would think of trying to deliberately design. Who would have concieved of, and tried to design, the strange jazz style of Steely Dan lead singer Donald Fagan?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

You play any instruments or write music, Ivan?

I studied and played the piano as a kid, but now I just tinker and play a few old songs, now and again.

...never did master the transition from Funeral For a Friend to Love Lies Bleeding.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I studied and played the piano as a kid, but now I just tinker and play a few old songs, now and again.

When you tried out that past life regression thing you came up as a pianist, and you started a thread in Mind and Brain asking why we enjoy music. Now this thread. I think you may be a musician trapped in the body of an engineer.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

If I had been good enough...possibly. Music has always been a huge part of my life; which I guess is true with many people. But, it is true all in all that I have the soul of a poet. If I only had the talent.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

btw, in my past life regression I was also a quarry foreman, or something, so I wouldn't put too much into that...

 

[zoobyshoe]

If I had been good enough...possibly. Music has always been a huge part of my life; which I guess is true with many people. But, it is true all in all that I have the soul of a poet. If I only had the talent.

You might feel very comfortable surrounded by musicians and musical people. When you retire you might try doing tech for a musical theater where they do operas, operettas, and musicals.

btw, in my past life regression I was also a quarry foreman, or something, so I wouldn't put too much into that...

That makes sense for the engineering side.

 

[hypnagogue]

Name some :)

I don't mean just "good" songs... I mean spectacular ones.

Spectacular is tough. hmm... try this one.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

This all brings up an interesting point. Most of us seem to have two loves of music. We like to listen, but we also like to sing along, or perhaps play the dinner plate with a knife and fork, tap your foot, or hum. So there is a desire to listen to music, but I think there is also a fundamental human desire [need, want?] to make music. I don't see how a computer could replace this.

 

[hypnagogue]

Music will never be entirely usurped by computers-- of course not. In principle there's no limit to how well a computer could emulate human musical composition and churn out good tunes (and some programs exist that already do an impressive job), but at best I think such things would be complementary to the human element. One thing to point out here as well is that it's probably considerably tougher to create a new style than it is to mimic an existing one, so perhaps humans will still have that market cornered for a good while longer.

Also it's worth pointing out that computer music needn't be limited to synths and all that-- a program could just write up original sheet music to be played by a human group for instance.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

This all brings up an interesting point. Most of us seem to have two loves of music. We like to listen, but we also like to sing along, or perhaps play the dinner plate with a knife and fork, tap your foot, or hum. So there is a desire to listen to music, but I think there is also a fundamental human desire [need, want?] to make music. I don't see how a computer could replace this.

That was another factor I had thought of aswell. People want to be able to express themselves artistically. Considering the sort of resistence you get to automating meanial jobs giving the jobs of artists over to machines would be next to blasphemy.

 

[zoobyshoe]

This all brings up an interesting point. Most of us seem to have two loves of music. We like to listen, but we also like to sing along, or perhaps play the dinner plate with a knife and fork, tap your foot, or hum. So there is a desire to listen to music, but I think there is also a fundamental human desire [need, want?] to make music. I don't see how a computer could replace this.

You're right. I rescued a brutally abused guitar from the swap meet once because I recognised it was handmade by a guitarmaker (I used to know one who had pointed out all the differences to me.) I glued it back together and still have it. Can't play it, but every now and then I feel the strong desire just to pluck a strings and hear it resonate. I think humans inherently enjoy being able to make sustained tones. I was cleaning an aluminum tube with some acetone the other day and was surprised to hear it start "singing" as I drew the towel along it (much like a finger on the rim of a wine glass). Had to play with that for quite a while.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Maybe we only listen due to a desire to make music.

I was just thinking of all of the faux conductors, guitarists, pianists, etc, in the world. Is it possible that we are all pretending that we are making the music?

Funny; when one attends a piano recital in a room full of pianists, guess what everyone's fingers are doing when the best pianists play?

 

[zoobyshoe]

Also it's worth pointing out that computer music needn't be limited to synths and all that-- a program could just write up original sheet music to be played by a human group for instance.

That's pretty non-offensive to me, artistically, since people play music composed by other people all the time and it's recognised as being an interpretive endeavor rather than directly creative. Takes just as much talent and creativity to do it in a worthwhile manner.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I was just thinking of all of the faux conductors, guitarists, pianists, etc, in the world. Is it possible that we are all pretending that we are making the music?

I've conducted some of the finest air orchestras in the world. All self taught, no training. Despite that, I get magnificent sound out of them.

 

[hypnagogue]

Maybe we only listen due to a desire to make music.

I was just thinking of all of the faux conductors, guitarists, pianists, etc, in the world. Is it possible that we are all pretending that we are making the music?

Funny; when one attends a piano recital in a room full of pianists, guess what everyone's fingers are doing when the best pianists play?

I don't think that's particular to music though. I remember jumping off the walls and practicing kicks after watching The Karate Kid as a child for instance.

I don't think it necessarily has much to do with a desire to make the music or to pretend that we are per se. It could be a more low-level, reflexive kind of thing-- I imagine mirror neurons figure in heavily. Music does seem to elicit general rhythmic movements anyway, of which imitations of instrument performance and such are a subset.

I'd say most people listen to music because the sounds and the way they're strung together and the emotions they evoke and so on are just intrinsically enjoyable in some way or another.

Though it is true that playing music oneself can be quite engaging. This may be because it meets the conditions condusive to producing a 'flow' state, or 'being in the zone'-- attentional and other cognitive resources are consumed with the given task, the task presents a challenge that can be met by employing some level of skill, there is clear and immediate feedback on what's working and what isn't, there is a framework of rules to work within, etc.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I don't know if this is the same thing as a 'reflexive" reaction, not sure what comprises one, but I do always feel a participative component. It's irrational, but just appreciating it makes me feel I am somehow also creating it.

 

[moose]

How many spectacular songs have you heard, period? I can only think of a few songs that I would consider "spectacular"

Maybe 5 or 6? Which is essentially my point.

 

[hypnagogue]

Maybe 5 or 6? Which is essentially my point.

What are the 5 or 6 you consider to be spectacular?

 

[Astronuc]

For Spectacular songs, how about for starters -

Karn Evil 9 from Brain Salad Surgery by Emerson, Lake and Palmer

All Along the Watchtower and Voodoo Chile from Electric Ladyland by Jimi Hendrix

Bridge of Sighs from Bridge of Sighs by Robin Trower

The Low Spark of High Heeled Boys from The Low Spark of High Heeled Boys by Traffic

In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida from In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida by Iron Butterfly!

Raspberry Jam Delta-V from Crystal Planet, and Searching from Is There Love in Space? by Joe Satriani

 

[jimmy p]

Computer made music will never capture the emotion of songs. For example, a computer could play the notes of, I don't know, say Guns N Roses - Estranged, but it could not capture the essence and emotion that Slash uses to play the soaring guitar solos.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Computer made music will never capture the emotion of songs. For example, a computer could play the notes of, I don't know, say Guns N Roses - Estranged, but it could not capture the essence and emotion that Slash uses to play the soaring guitar solos.

What makes this quality so intangible? The fact that so many of us respond to particular songs tells me that there are common factors which might be identified and used to predict what works. In fact, much of what tops the pop charts now is formula music written for formula bands consisting of formula characters. You can even go to boy band school now.

Consider also:
http://www.epinions.com/inst-review-7EEC-1F523E39-397B1F52-prod5

 

[hypnagogue]

Computer made music will never capture the emotion of songs. For example, a computer could play the notes of, I don't know, say Guns N Roses - Estranged, but it could not capture the essence and emotion that Slash uses to play the soaring guitar solos.

Why not? Slash communicates those emotions by playing the notes a certain way-- maybe holding this note that long, bending that note a bit, etc. In principle, there is no reason why such a style could not be captured by an algorithm; the computer just needs to reproduce certain patterns of timing in how it plays the notes.

If you read Hofstadter's article, he seems to be a classical music aficionado and yet he thinks the songs created by one existing program sound like they portray emotion and even meaning.

 

[CosminaPrisma]

I'm no music theorist, but I think it would be possible to study what pitch, tones, timbres, etc that people think convey certain emotions (like what Ivan Seeking says) and be able to create a computer program that generates music according to that. I think after working on it for a few years and tweaking it researchers would be able to write a program that composes/plays music that is relatively indiscernable from what humans make that also conveys certain emotions that most people would agree upon. As recording techniques get better so will synthesizing sounds on a computer imho--thus making the computer music less distinguishable from the total man made thing.

 

[CosminaPrisma]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/11/24/60minutes/main657713.shtml"

That kid in the above link could also be the future of music.


the future of music might just depend on popular opinion (you all probably read this already)

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000D8E2F-C0DD-13EB-80DD83414B7F0000"

Depending on what new improvisations in music making become popular with the masses is what will predict the future of music. Maybe that's what happens with http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/humpback/song.html" ...when their whale song dialect changes...I saw a special about the cognitive anthropology of music awhile ago and they speculated on that.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Computer made music will never capture the emotion of songs. For example, a computer could play the notes of, I don't know, say Guns N Roses - Estranged, but it could not capture the essence and emotion that Slash uses to play the soaring guitar solos.

Why not? Slash communicates those emotions by playing the notes a certain way-- maybe holding this note that long, bending that note a bit, etc. In principle, there is no reason why such a style could not be captured by an algorithm; the computer just needs to reproduce certain patterns of timing in how it plays the notes.

I think jimmy p has a point here, if I understand what he's saying correctly. Given the notes, could a program be written that would explore them for an extremely moving, stylistically specific, original interpretive performance? Slash is not imitating another style, by formula, but generating a new one from himself. Could a computer program be written that could generate a new, unique, sucessful (people would like it) human sounding performer that is not an imitation of an existing one?
That seems vastly less possible to me.

 

[jimmy p]

Exactly my point! But expressed much better. What a team we make zooby.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Exactly my point! But expressed much better. What a team we make zooby.

Yes. We have special translational advantages gained through our prior work in stupid quetions.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Would you two like to be alone? :!)

 

[jimmy p]

You are just jealous because you aren't part of a team dedicated to answering all of lifes stupid quetions.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Would you two like to be alone? :!)

Roffel!

...

 

[zoobyshoe]

What makes this quality so intangible? The fact that so many of us respond to particular songs tells me that there are common factors which might be identified and used to predict what works.

You can, but I think there are scads of human composers who can already do this faster and easier than anyone could write a program to do it. You may remember the scene from Amadeus where he improvises in the style of composers whose names people call out to him. The film makes it out that only a musical genius could do that. In fact, most classically trained musicians can do it to some degree. People who write film scores in particular are style sponges because they have to have the ability to score a huge, practically infinite, variety of scenes if they want work. It wouldn't be difficult at all to locate a film composer to write a film score in the style of Chopin or Beethoven. If you ever saw The Ruttles you must have noticed how all the Ruttles songs sounded exactly like Beatles songs you had just never happened to hear before. They did a great job with that.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Well, a program only need be written once. The idea is not that you would have to write a new program for each new song. The idea is that given the proper algorithms, a computer could spit out new songs and styles ad infinitum.

The real question to me is: Where does the music in the heads of these genuises come from? Some, like the boy in the link, say that they hear the music as if it were composed by someone else. It makes one wonder if some of the greatest songs are written by anyone...

 

[zoobyshoe]

Well, a program only need be written once. The idea is not that you would have to write a new program for each new song. The idea is that given the proper algorithms, a computer could spit out new songs and styles ad infinitum.

New songs in a pre-existing style already exists (see Hypnagogue's link). New styles would take some very creative leap to figure out. The way the program analyzes old Chopin to write new Chopin turns out to be: take a lot of his old music apart into pieces and reassemble the pieces in a new configuration. This is fine for a limited number of "new" compositions, but I bet after a while it would become horribly repetitive. In real life a composer evolves, abandons old habits and discovers new things to explore.

The real question to me is: Where does the music in the heads of these genuises come from? Some, like the boy in the link, say that they hear the music as if it were composed by someone else. It makes one wonder if some of the greatest songs are written by anyone...

If you immerse yourself in something all the time it becomes habitual. After listening to Bach for a few hours I start to hear Bach-like music in my head and sometimes can't stop this for a couple days. I think it is just a matter of inertia: get a whole bunch of neurons working on a certain kind of thing and they'll continue at it even when you're not pushing them to do so anymore.