The Imams removed from US Air flight - the real story?

  1. Evo

    Staff: Mentor

    Well, we all read the "abreviated" version of this story. How many read all the facts of what really happened? Quite a different story. Excellent opinion piece from the WSJ. The information seems to be corroborated by the following CNN article with interviews of passengers saying the same thing that the WSJ article states.

    What do you believe happened? Sounds like the Imams deliberately planned to cause trouble. This is shameful.

    http://opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110009348

    ""Allahu Akbar" was just the opening act. After boarding, they did not take their assigned seats but dispersed to seats in the first row of first class, in the midcabin exit rows and in the rear--the exact configuration of the 9/11 execution teams. The head of the group, seated closest to the cockpit, and two others asked for a seatbelt extension, kept on board for obese people. A heavy metal buckle at the end of a long strap, it can easily be used as a lethal weapon. The three men rolled them up and placed them on the floor under their seats."

    Whoa, why did they ask for these extensions which can be used as lethal weapons? Did they expect to be denied as they obviously did not need them, and then to claim discrimination due to them being Muslim? Well, that backfired. But what they did with them is a definite RED FLAG. Storing potential weapons under their seats? Why were they sittng in first class where they did not have seats? Why did they refuse to take their assigned seats? Hmmm, seems an AWFUL lot of important facts were withheld from the public about what really happened.

    See this CNN newstory with video from passengers that corroborate that they sat in first class, refused to take their seats etc...

    http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/21/passengers.removed.ap/index.html

    I want a level headed discussion. If you have documented facts that sheds more light or debunks something said "from a credible independant source", post it. I feel like I was mislead by the slanted journalism that failed to give full details of what really happened.
     
  2. jcsd
  3. Seatbelt buckle wielding Imams? Am I not supposed to giggle?
     
  4. Evo

    Staff: Mentor

    Thanks, it does seem to be that the Imams intentionally staged the whole thing. Absolutely shameful. They should be charged by authorities and hit with fines by the airline.
     
  5. Where is she getting her details here? She doesn't say she was on the plane herself, but doesn't attribute her claims to any source either. Perhaps this thread would be better suited for the scepticism and debunking forum?
     
  6. Evo

    Staff: Mentor

    I linked to the CNN report that had live video interviews with passengers on the flight that corroborated the Imam's actions.
     
  7. No one in that video said anything corroborating "the exact configuration of the 9/11 execution teams" claim or bit about the seat belt straps being rolled up and placed floor under the their seats. And those are the only fishy things mentioned in that article as proclaiming 'God is greatest' in Arabic is hardly an odd thing to hear from a group of praying Muslims.
     
  8. Evo

    Staff: Mentor

    The passenger stated the positons the Imams placed themselves in, which were not their seats, which they were asked to move from which they refused. They didn't have to say "the exact configuration of the 9/11 execution teams", they gave the seating positions, whch match. Also, read the Washington post article.

    This was a pre-meditated act to cause trouble. It's abominable behavior for ANYONE. They should be made to publicly apologize for what they have done.
     
  9. What's shameful is the way some Americans wet their pants every time some Muslims get on a plane.

    Sean Carroll has weighed in on this. I'm waiting for the TBogg coverage.
     
  10. 0rthodontist

    0rthodontist 1,253
    Science Advisor

    The Muslims were wrong for not taking their seats, but...

    There's nothing wrong with emphasizing who you are. Just saying "allahu akbar" is perfectly benign. If some passengers are prejudiced enough to become alarmed at foreign-sounding prayer, they are in the wrong. Actually it seems like a nice thing to do. I have no affiliation with Islam, but I would like to see an Islamic movement to say "allahu akbar" or some other prayer whenever they enter an airplane, not yelling it but saying it loud enough for others to hear. Muslims-and other victims of discrimination-should not hide their identity as if it were something to be ashamed of. If there's a prevailing attitude that muslims should keep quiet and not say who they are, then that attitude needs to be countered.

    It would be especially nice if such a movement chose, for its prayer, a phrase which is a blessing towards the other passengers. That would make it less confrontational, without diluting the message that muslims should not feel like they should hide themselves and that other people should learn to accept that there are those with different beliefs.

    Again, I have no affiliation with Islam. I'm just looking at this in terms of discrimination.
     
  11. berkeman

    Staff: Mentor

    I haven't read much about this. Where did these guys initially do the prayer together? Was that in the lobby, and then they got on the plane and did all this? How were they removed from the plane? Were they arrested? (sorry that I'm not current on this)
     
  12. berkeman

    Staff: Mentor

    I thought that was the traditional prayer that suicide bombers commonly yell out right before.... I don't know much about this stuff -- is that an urban myth?
     
  13. verty

    verty 1,934
    Homework Helper

    It's not their identity. This is not a race issue.
     
  14. 0rthodontist

    0rthodontist 1,253
    Science Advisor

    According to Wikipedia (yeah, yeah, bad source) it's also on the national flags of Iraq and Iran. According to lexicorient, it is used as a greeting, and is repeated twenty times a day in the adhan, a prayer call. It's central to Islam. If a serial killer repeats the Hail Mary when killing people, does that mean the prayer should no longer be said?

    You believe someone's religion is not part of their identity?
     
  15. berkeman

    Staff: Mentor

    Interesting, I didn't know that. Good to learn, too. If I heard somebody use that phrase near me in a public place prior to your explanation, my hackles would have gone up. Learn something new every day, especially on the PF.

    The wrong seats and seatbelt straps and refusing to move things still are a problem in this incident, if all true, IMO.
     
  16. Evo

    Staff: Mentor

    Except this was all staged, and we now know what really happened. This was nothing innocent. First they sat in first class with out tickets and refused to move, then they requested seat belt extensions wihich are available to grossly obese people. The Imams were sure since they didn't need them and they could be considered lethal weapons, that they would be denied, so they could claim racial discrimination. But the extensensions were given to them , so that blew that. So they refused to take their seats, they refused to co-operate in any form. The flight could not take off without them taking their seats. It went on from there. ANY person behaving this irrationally would have been removed from the plane and as we can see from previous incidents, they all have.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2006
  17. Evo

    Staff: Mentor

    I believe that when you are in public, you respect the people around you. If that means canning a prayer party until you're back on home turf, so be it.

    In a public place we cannot cater to the thousands of quirky individual religious and superstitious beliefs of EVERYONE. That's just nuts. Show some self control and understanding for those around you that do not hold your beliefs. AND ABIDE BY THE SAME RULES EVERYONE ELSE HAS TO, YOU ARE NOT AN EXCEPTION BOZO.

    If my religion calls for me to burn overwhelming incense and sacrifice animals every hour, regardless of where I am, should I be allowed to do that in a public place? This is getting ridiculous. Can we all try to PRETEND to be normal, rational, considerate human beings for the few hours that we have to share public transportation? Is that too much to ask??? I think not.
     
  18. 0rthodontist

    0rthodontist 1,253
    Science Advisor

    I should re-iterate here that I have already said the people in this case had gone too far in refusing to take their seats. Their prayers were justified, their other actions were not. (but by the way, a pen is a far more lethal weapon than a seatbelt)
    -------------------------------------------

    No one should be forced to refrain from public prayer, and we aren't. Are you arguing that praying out loud creates a disturbance similar to sacrificing animals?

    Are you arguing that prayer should be universally banned on public transportation?
    -------------------------------------------

    Or are you arguing that Muslim prayer specifically creates a disturbance because people associate it with terrorism? So do you reason Muslims should not pray in public but it's OK for everyone else?
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2006
  19. Evo

    Staff: Mentor

    May or may not be, the pen would have to hit a specific spot, the heavy metal buckle swung on the cord could crush someone's skull.

    I disagree with that, there are too many religious sects and if they all chose to start performing their ceremonies in public it would be a joke. There is no reason why that kind of thing can't wait. You are inconveniencing and inflicting your religious beliefs on others that don't want it.

    Where is it appropriate to draw the line? My god specifically says I need to kill and burn a goat every 2 hours or suffer eternal damnation. What do I do?

    YES!!!!! There is absolutely NO REASON for it. It imposes on the rights of others. It is disruptive, it is impolite to the point that it is impinging on my personal freedom. Say the prayers silently to yourself if you feel you must, do NOT intrude your beliefs on others.

    No, ANYONE praying in public places should be stopped. A public space is NOT appropriate for an individual to carry out their religious practices. It's also not an appropriate place for explicit acts of sex, which are ok in some religions. Rule of thumb..."will my personal actions impinge upon the normal activities of other people that have a right to be there? Will my religious activities mock theirs? Will it make them uncomfortable? If you can answer yes to of these questions, then it is unethical to do them.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2006
  20. 0rthodontist

    0rthodontist 1,253
    Science Advisor

    How about:
    • missionaries
    • Jehovah's witnesses (door-to-door soliciting)
    • Mormons (I mention them only because of the recent thread about them by Ivan Seeking)
    • church bells
    • funeral processions
    • carolers
    These are all public, often intrusive religious actions. Most people would agree that they should be permitted. Do you disagree?

    Why would Fred praying out loud bother a reasonable person any more than Fred talking loudly on a cell phone?
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2006
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