The Mystery of Light Slowing and Speeding Up - www.thefinaltheory.com

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The discussion centers on the claims made by the website www.thefinaltheory.com regarding the behavior of light as it passes through different media. Critics argue that the assertion that science has no explanation for light slowing down in materials like glass is misleading and reflects a lack of scientific understanding. The explanation provided highlights that photons always travel at the speed of light, but their apparent slowdown is due to absorption and re-emission by atoms in the medium, creating delays. Additionally, the heating of materials when light passes through is attributed to the absorption of some photons, which is a common phenomenon in non-perfectly transparent substances. Overall, the thread critiques the website's claims as lacking scientific credibility and suggests that the explanations for light behavior are well-established in physics.
  • #61
ram2048 said:
that's why i was saying it's not the acceleration but the speed. if they both accelerated to the speed of light at the exact same rate, but one experienced a period of deceleration on return before taking the measurement, the entire period where their speeds were not the same is the calculated part where their times and aging would be different.

If we assume that acceleration increases the energy state of all matter in the the frame accelerated, and that for the elevated energy, translated into higher frequency rates for all affected matter, the efficiency of material dynamic processes becomes inversely less effecient in energy and force exchanges. This includes equilibrium state processes, velocity a constant. At relativistic velocities the accelerations have been enormous. The efficiency of the energy exchange and force exchnge processes decreases grossly as observed. Lower the energy level, increase the efficiency of process dynamics of the matter undergoing the process.

What is observed in relativistic accelerations? More and more energy used for storing and loading than accelerating, inversely proportionately less for velocity increases.

The lorentz term using velocity as the key is merely a measure of the limiting parameter for that particlular process under scrutiny. What is being ignored is the dynamics of complex energy flow in all material processes.
 
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  • #62
very interesting. i'll have to look into that one :D

thanks
 
  • #63
ram2048 said:
hell if there's general relativity and special relativity I'm going to call mine universal relativity :|


ram2048, I have a problem. I calculated that an electromagnetic sphere whose radius was expanding at a rate equal to c would have a radius equal to c after one second which means the diameter would be 2c afte one second that means the oppositiely directed photons were expanding at a relative rate of 2c.
I was hushed an told be quite. Where is the fallacy in all of this? :wink:
 
  • #64
i don't see a problem with that... :D
 
  • #65
relative_sceptic said:
You call yourself a physicist, and even seem to think you understand relativity, (I bet you also think you understand Quantum Theory), yet you can't answer this question without your texbooks.

Hmm, sorry I didn't realize that having all the calculations for SR at the tips of ones fingers was a requisite for being a physicist. Does this go for all theories? I mean, should I also be able to solve the 2d Ising model without my books?

Well, I guess I'm not a physicist then... and there I was, doing so well in my PhD and everything...

Matt
 
  • #66
geistkiesel said:
I trust we can alter the question slightlty by inserting that two frames had recently shared a comon stationary frame . Each frame knows its velocity is greater than the stationary common frame. Hiowever, the distance between the frames is huge and merely sending their current clock setting won't work in determining which is the faster frame with respect to the common stationary frame. How may the frames determine which is fastest. The frame clocks are identical with a stationary frame clock pulse rate = 1.

Each frame's clock is pulsing at some frequency where the signals are true pulses, | | | | | | | |. Would not the slowest frame receive a pulse rate from the faster at a slower rate than his own pulse rate?

Likewise, would not the fastest frame determine the pulse rate from the slower was generated at a higher frequancy than his own?

This seems rather trivial if true, having heard all the horror stories of relativity theory that seem to deny the ability to do this..

I don't think you are allowed to say that a frame is "stationary", so you also cannot say that the two frames know they are traveling faster than the common frame. They might consider themselves to be stationary and the common frame moving away from them.
 
  • #67
baffledMatt said:
Hmm, sorry I didn't realize that having all the calculations for SR at the tips of ones fingers was a requisite for being a physicist. Does this go for all theories? I mean, should I also be able to solve the 2d Ising model without my books?

Well, I guess I'm not a physicist then... and there I was, doing so well in my PhD and everything...

Matt

There you go again, arrogance is quite common in PhD students, fortunately they usually get over it, I'm sure you will too.
What I am trying to point out tho is the contradiction here, I've seen numerous answers to this problem which merely try to avoid the issue or cloud the issue, by pages of calculations and spacetime diagrams, none of which really address the issue.
I'm also trying to say keep an open mind and don't be too sure of what you think you understand, and that you can't blindly accept everything you read in textbooks.
BTW I'm not a supporter of this new TOE guy, it sounds like a scam to sell books to me.

I like to think I can see logical contradictions in arguments, and the bull**** people use to cover them up.
But then who knows.

All I know is that a lot of people have have based a lot of their work on the principles of relativity and if it was accepted that there was some flaw in relativity, their work could be discredited, and their reputations would be diminished. They have a huge vested interest in maintaining the theory as flawless. In which case their motives have to be questioned, and also the validity of the arguments they put forward.
Unfortunately not all scientists have the highest motives, they are as prone to human weakness as everybody else.

Anyway that's enough of a rant, as far as SR is concerned I will just have to wait and hope that time will tell.

---steve
 
  • #68
By the way...

relative_sceptic said:
Mmmmmhhhh

So can someone tell me which one is older when they have both experienced identical accelerations on their journeys, but at different times?

---Steve

Are you aware that this scenario is not symmetric? So any discrepancy between the ages of the twins is not a problem.

Matt
 
  • #69
Thank God for you guys!
 
  • #70
Hahaha

The most amazing thing to me is that they've actually provided a link to this discussion on the mentioned site.
 
  • #71
Spacebound twin shifts reference frames

Ignoring periods of acceleration, the spacebound twin's journey involves two inertial reference frames: One leaving, one returning. So there's three reference frames you're likely to want to consider things from.

From the earthbound reference frame, the earthbound twin undergoes no time-dilation and the spacebound twin undergoes some each way. (I say undergoes because you don't experience it, you see it happening to others.) The spacebound twin is x years younger on return.

From the departing reference frame, the earthbound twin undergoes constant time-dilation. The spacebound twin initially undergoes no TD, then undergoes MORE TD than the earthbound one on the return leg, and is x years younger on catching up with Earth.

From the inbound reference frame, the earthbound twin undergoes constant TD. The spacebound twin initially undergoes more TD, so much that even though he/she/it undergoes no TD on the return leg he/she/it is still x years younger than the earthbound twin when Earth arrives.

See? No paradox - unless you didn't know you had a twin! :smile:
 
  • #72
Stupid('s) question to Twin Paradoxon

Hi there!
If been thinking a lot about this whole "Twin Paradoxon"-issue.
I don't have a problem to understand, that there is a difference between who is being absolutely accelerated and who is not (since stating that the spacebound twin is "stationary" would mean, the whole rest of the universe has to be moved away from him - taking the two guys solely into account might be right for calculating but not for understanding how the whole thing would work out in "reality". For that kind of understanding a simple guy like me needs simple analogies).

My actual question is, if anyone could tell me why there has to be something like "time dilation" at all? And, if possible, without quoting a pile of formulas that I won't understand anyway.

What was Einsteins "idea" behind the theory that made him state that time has to be relative too?

What would be so awfully wrong about thinking that time is the same, no matter where you are and how fast you are moving?

I know this question might sound stupid to you, but if anyone would take the time and enlighten me, I would be really thankful!
 
  • #73
Time dilation exists because it was a necessary assumption (along with length contraction) to keep special relativity consistant.

you can assume that time is absolute and unchanging for all speeds, but then light speed would not be relatively unchanging <measured> to all observers

which is not so bad... :D
 
  • #74
Muddler said:
What would be so awfully wrong about thinking that time is the same, no matter where you are and how fast you are moving?

There is nothing wrong with this. Go ahead and believe so, if you like. Physics belived this way for a long time, in what is known as Newtonian physics.

However, scientists wanted to move beyond Newtonian physics, in order to better understand the nature of the world. If you want to join them, then you would have to realize that space and time interact in what is known as space-time. In this scenario, motion through time is dependent upon motion through space. You want to change the rate of motion through space, yet have no affect on the rate of motion through time. This is now understood, in Einsteinian physics, to be impossible.

However, there is nothing wrong with you for not wanting the increased complexity of understanding that is required for what little you might gain in your personal life. Feel free to continue with Newtonian physics, or whatever level of science you may have.
 
  • #75
Muddler said:
Hi there!
If been thinking a lot about this whole "Twin Paradoxon"-issue.
I don't have a problem to understand, that there is a difference between who is being absolutely accelerated and who is not (since stating that the spacebound twin is "stationary" would mean, the whole rest of the universe has to be moved away from him - taking the two guys solely into account might be right for calculating but not for understanding how the whole thing would work out in "reality". For that kind of understanding a simple guy like me needs simple analogies).

My actual question is, if anyone could tell me why there has to be something like "time dilation" at all? And, if possible, without quoting a pile of formulas that I won't understand anyway.

What was Einsteins "idea" behind the theory that made him state that time has to be relative too?

What would be so awfully wrong about thinking that time is the same, no matter where you are and how fast you are moving?

I know this question might sound stupid to you, but if anyone would take the time and enlighten me, I would be really thankful!

It's possible to demonstarte time dialtion with a simple geometric argument and a few assumptions:

Imagine a beam of light traveling between an emitter and a detector (which are staionary relative to each other) and an observer (denoted by an 'A' in the diagram) moving perpendicualr realtive to the emitter and detector.

This is what is seen from the rest frame of the detector and emitter:


Code:
|----->|   A
           |
           | 
           |
           |


This is what is seen from the rest frame of the observer

Code:
     /|   A
    /
   /
  /
|/

It's clear to see that the beam of light traveled further from the point of view of our observer A. As the speed of light is constant in ALL rest frames this means that from the point of view of the observer A the light took longer to travel between the emitter and the detecot than it did it did from the point of view of someone in the rest frame and the emitter i.e. time has been dialated.

If we use the Newtonian kinematic equation for constant veocity:

x = ut

And let c be the speed of light, u the relative velcoity of the observer to our emitter/detector set-up, t' the time measured for the beam of light to travel from the emitter to the detector in the emitter/detectr set-up's rest frame and t the time measured for the beam of light to travel from the emitter to dector in A's rest frame then we can annote our second diagram with the appropiate lengths:


Code:
     /|   
ct  / |
   /  | ut'
  /   |
 /    |  
------
  ct'

using the Pythagorean theorum we can say:

c^2t^2 = u^2t&#039;^2 + c^2t&#039;^2

therfeore:

t&#039;^2 = t^2(1 - \frac{u^2}{c^2})

therfore:

t&#039; = \frac{t}{\sqrt{1-\frac{c^2}{u^2}}}

which is our formula for time dialation.
 
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  • #76
Jack, it is not true that physics can't answer that question. An iluminating way to view it is with the analogy of waves on a cord. Suppose you start moving up and down the end of a rope of a certain density. The perturbations will propagate along the cord at a certain speed which is related to it's density. Now suppose you tie another cord with a different density to the opposite end of the first one. The perturbation traveling along the first rope will be transmitted faster on the new rope if it's density is smaller, and this is only non-relativistic classical physics. There will be reflections, the wave transmitted to the new rope will be less energetic,etc.

This analogy is not completely accurate because light doesn't propagate in a medium, but it helps.
 
  • #77
jcsd said:
which is our formula for time dialation.
I have read this example set up differently, where the emitter/detector were moving and the observer stationary.

In that case, I have wondered if the moving emitter/detector were moving at an appreciable fraction of the speed of light would the light actually be shown to have any component of movement in the direction of travel?

It isn't the same situation as tossing a ball up and down on a train where the ball already has momentum in the direction of train travel. The photon is created on the spot, and since quanta are not like anything else, I wonder if a stream of photons emmitted at 90º to the direction of travel wouldn't actually have the appearance of a curve away and opposite to the direction of travel. If the detector were far enough away and the speed of the emitter great enough, the photon might not even hit the detector before it (the detector) moved out of the way.
 
  • #78
zoobyshoe said:
I have read this example set up differently, where the emitter/detector were moving and the observer stationary.

I actuually thought that one up myself, but I was flicking through Feynman vol 1 and I noticed that he had almsot exactly the same demonstartion in it, so I may of unsuspectingly took the idea from there. Due to the relativity of constant motion there is no objective difference between the observer and the emitter/dector moving.

In that case, I have wondered if the moving emitter/detector were moving at an appreciable fraction of the speed of light would the light actually be shown to have any component of movement in the direction of travel?

The diagrams do imply that the dector/emitter is moving at very close to the speed of light (in fact if you study the actual lengths in the diagram they're moving at above the speed of light, but the diagram is only meant to be a rough sketch so don't draw any conclusions from that!)

I think you have to be clearer on what you mean by direction of travel' i.e. whose direction of travel relative to what?
 
  • #79
Due to the relativity of constant motion there is no objective difference between the observer and the emitter/dector moving.

i have outlined exactly why "changing the objective frame" doesn't hold true for dealing with light

you are on the right track, zooby. if you want to sift through 25 pages of arguments i have a thread "Today special relativity dies". it gives pretty good arguments from both sides in detail so you can see where each are coming from
 
  • #80
In the case where the emitter/detector are moving the direction of travel is theirs. The light is emitted at 90º to this.
 
  • #81
ram1024 said:
you are on the right track, zooby. if you want to sift through 25 pages of arguments i have a thread "Today special relativity dies".
I'll wait till the Reader"s Digest short version is issued.

I'm not really on a track here, so much as trying to separate what is "gedanken" from what is real. You can't see a beam of light to begin with, so it may also be that the path it takes is also a stipulation. I'm not quite sure.
 
  • #82
ram1024 said:
i have outlined exactly why "changing the objective frame" doesn't hold true for dealing with light

you are on the right track, zooby. if you want to sift through 25 pages of arguments i have a thread "Today special relativity dies". it gives pretty good arguments from both sides in detail so you can see where each are coming from

Your arguments are based on Gallilean relativity, which is odd as you also reject that.
 
  • #83
zoobyshoe said:
In the case where the emitter/detector are moving the direction of travel is theirs. The light is emitted at 90º to this.

In that case there must be a component in the direction they are travelling, the only case when this is not so is when the relative velocities are zero 9in which case they don't have a direction of motion).

For the case of 90 degrees, remember in special relativity light always travels in a straight line in all inertial refrence frames.
 
  • #84
Your arguments are based on Gallilean relativity, which is odd as you also reject that

i had no idea what "Galilean Relativity" was until i brought my thoughts to this forum. so my thoughts are not "based on" galilean relativity, but many of the principles remain the same.

i've never rejected it, i just don't know enough about it to see what's wrong with it... if anything.
 
  • #85
I'll wait till the Reader"s Digest short version is issued

i understand completely :D

it helps to view it internally, and find a self-rational view of how things would work. then tackle what scientists have concluded piece by piece, comparing it to your own view and re-structuring how you view things if need be.

you end up with a view of how things work AS MAKES SENSE TO YOU <which is important> and also consistant with how others have found things to be.
 
  • #86
Janus said:
As to how light "speeds back up" after leaving a substance, here is the easiest way of looking at it.

Photons always travel at c. When they enter a transparent substance, however, they encounter molecules/atoms. As they do so, the molecules absorb the photons. When that happens the photons cease to exist.

Then after a short delay, the molecule , re-emits a photon traveling in nearly the same direction as the first. This new photon, upon creation, begins to travel at c until it encounters another molecule.

These slight delays between absorption and emission, increases the time it take from the time a photon enters a substance to the time one emerges form the other side.

This give the impression that light slowed down while traveling through the subtance.
(If you knew that some friends had left their home, which was 60 miles distant from you, at a given time, and they arived at your house 1 1/2 hrs later, It would seem to you that they drove the distancea 40 mph. Even if, while on the road, they drove at 60 mph, but stopped for gas along the way, got a quick bite to eat somewhere, had to fix a flat , etc. )

Light travels though a substance in similar fits and starts.

RA What you say is true, but the actual computations and detailed theory are dificult. (Among the early contributors are some of the marques names in physics, Rayleigh (explained why the sky is blue), Einstein and Smolukowski who investigated and showed the importance of fluctuation in local numbers of molecular scatterers, less well known is Mie who developed the theory of why the rainbow looks as it does.

The slowdown occurs through interference inside the material -- the slowdown is reflected in the so-called group velocity of a wave packet , all frequencies treavel at c-- the scattering results in changes in the frequency of the light. The frequency shifts are due to, among other things, molecular recoil, and sometimes due to so-called radiative broadening due to the lifetimes of the excited molecular states.

But, once outside, the light suffers no interference, and so goes at c. There are no contradictions; the theory has been tested countless times -- including the theory of radar we all depend on while flying.

The theory, like most in physics, is descriptive, as are Maxwell's equations. We physicists make no pretension that we understand how, or why charges emit radiation or produce fields. But the modern world is testimony that once we assume fields, the resulting theory is staggeringly useful, and remarkably accurate.

Regards,
Reilly Atkinson
 
  • #87
jcsd said:
In that case there must be a component in the direction they are travelling, the only case when this is not so is when the relative velocities are zero 9in which case they don't have a direction of motion).
But I'm trying to determine if your "there must be" is a stipulation or if it has been determined to be true. Will a photon emitted from a spaceship traveling at an appreciable fraction of c at 90º to the ships direction of travel actually have a component of motion in the direction of the ships travel? Or is this a stipulation to make the point about what the observer will see?

Imagine the emitter/detector as two ships both traveling in the same direction at the same speed .9999999c. They are side by side but separated by 300,000 miles. It will take well over a second for a photon to cover this distance.

If ship Emitter aims its photon gun at ship Detector and fires one round, will not ship Detector have vacated the target area by the time the photon arrives where it was aimed?

If someone on ship Emitter throws a rock at ship Detector it will, indeed, eventually hit ship Detector. The rock, though, has acquired momentum in the direction of Emitter/Detector's travel by virtue of its mass. A photon has no mass and I wouldn't be surprised to find out it behaved differently than a rock in the same circumstances.
 
  • #88
Prometheus said:
There is nothing wrong with this. Go ahead and believe so, if you like. Physics belived this way for a long time, in what is known as Newtonian physics.

However, there is nothing wrong with you for not wanting the increased complexity of understanding that is required for what little you might gain in your personal life. Feel free to continue with Newtonian physics, or whatever level of science you may have.

Hmmph!
That's just the kind of answer I needed.
I know you are brilliant and I'm a klutz, but I knew that before.
The problem is, I'd like to believe in Einsteinian physics, but it's not as easy for me to just accept it without understanding the problems that Einstein's theory claims to solve.
Time dilation is explained as a necessary consequence of relativity.
But why is it so important for lightspeed to be measured as a constant value?
I have no problem with lightspeed being constant and I know that experiments have shown a constant value for lightspeed even with moving emitters and detectors. But that was on earth (or near it) and the speed of the objects has always been small in relation to the speed of light.
Do you know of any experiment (references welcome!), where light-emitters have actually been accelarated to near-lightspeed? (And I mean lab-experiments, not any distant supernova or anything we measured and calculated already using Einstein's concepts)
You see my problem?
People always seem to say that relativity (with all its consequences) has to be true, because...because it needs to be true to work!
That simply doesn't satisfy me.
I know that many things can be accurately calculated using Einstein's formulas, but to me that's not the same as Einstein's idea of spacetime being real.
I always try to get a concept of physics as a whole, to understand what a formula or theory means.

I know, you are going to tell me, I won't be able to understand it without becoming a student of physics and getting a degree, but I'm arrogant enough to think, that if you are not able to make me understand doesn't necessarily mean that I'm the one who is stupid... :approve:
 
  • #89
skepticism is healthy as long as you can handle the criticism that comes with non-believing :D

basic physics is quite easy, and it's absolutely necessary just in order to get your foot in the door to understand anything.

the thinking part is more important than knowledge. according to basics:

1. knowing how to learn
2. knowing things
3. knowing how to apply "things"
4. knowing history and knowing how things have been used in the past
5. knowing society and the consequences and ramifications of using things

at that's that's the hiearchy as I've found it to be
 
  • #90
Muddler said:
Hmmph!
That's just the kind of answer I needed.
I know you are brilliant and I'm a klutz, but I knew that before.

I never said that I am brilliant or that you are a klutz. All I said was that you do not have to learn about relativity, and therefore that you do not have to accept its tenets, if you do not wish to.

Muddler said:
But why is it so important for lightspeed to be measured as a constant value?

Let me take a stab at this one. How is our species aware of time? Fundamentally, we are aware of time by observing motion through space. (For example, to be aware of units of time such as the month and the year, we observe the motion of the moon and the sun through space.) Therefore, space is necessary in order to be aware of time. How is our species aware of space? By observing changes in space. Such changes require time. Therefore, to be aware of space requires time, and to be aware of time requires space. This is the nature of space-time. How are we aware of space and time. By light. Light emitted from objects in space reaches our eyes and our techincal instruments to inform us of objects in space. Without light, there can be no awareness of time or space. Further than this, without light, there is no motion through time or space. Light is not only that which informs us of time and space, light is the enabler of space-time. Light is the enabler of space-time, and light is the conveyer of information about space-time. Everything that we see emits light all of the time.

Our part of the universe was thrown far out in space from the Big Bang. All of space-time in this part of the universe moves at a fairly constant rate of motion through space, and therefore a fairly constant rate of motion through time. This includes our light. The light in this part of the universe moves at a fairly constant rate of motion through space, and a fairly constant rate of motion through time. Although the rate of motion through space-time is constant for the entire universe, the rate of motion of light through space only seems constant in this part of the universe, but is not so everywhere in the universe.

The speed of light seems constant because there is motion through space-time only when there is light. Light, once emitted, does not age. It therefore travels at the same rate of motion through space and time. All of the light that we can see in this part of the universe is roughly the same age, and therefore moves at basically the same speed. We are unable to detect any differences.

Your usage of the word lightspeed reflects an understanding that light is in motion through space. You must also understand that light is in motion through time. In other words, light is in motion through space-time, and that motion through space and time is symmetrical. Increases in motion through space result in symmetrical decreases in motion through time, and vice versa. When you use the word lightspeed, you seem to be using a Newtonian definition, whereby speed though space is meant. You should realize that everything in the universe moves at the speed of light; it is only the spatial and temporal components that are subject to change.
 

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