The Obesity Epidemic: What Can Be Done to Stop It?

[DanP]

What are the steps the medical system takes nowadays to raise awareness in the public regarding obesity epidemic who rages through the western world , and to put an end to it ?
Is there a concerted effort to put it at an end ?

Should governments, through their healthcare policies, get involved in this issue ?

 

[leroyjenkens]

I don't think so. You can't help people who don't want to be helped. A lot of obese people really want to lose weight, they just don't want to put in the work to make it happen.
You can teach nutrition and exercise, but beyond that, it's up to the individual.
The exception is kids. The kids don't know any better. In that case, it's the parent's fault.
A lot of people blame the price of healthy food. They say it's more expensive than unhealthy food. I think that's just an excuse. Depending on where you live, fruits and vegetables aren't expensive. It's just that they're too lazy to make a real meal and instead opt for the meals that are already made, or are easier to make, which are generally more unhealthy.

 

[Count Iblis]

Governments should intervene by making nutrition and health topics mandatory in schools. We teach reading and writing in schools too, we don't say that everyone can learn to read and write themselves and then blame the inevitable high illiteracy rate on lazy parents/children who refuse to teach themselves to read and write.

 

[lisab]

The exception is kids. The kids don't know any better. In that case, it's the parent's fault.
A lot of people blame the price of healthy food. They say it's more expensive than unhealthy food. I think that's just an excuse. Depending on where you live, fruits and vegetables aren't expensive. It's just that they're too lazy to make a real meal and instead opt for the meals that are already made, or are easier to make, which are generally more unhealthy.

Mostly I agree, but it's not just parents. Have you seen what is served in school lunches? Total crap.

And yes, it's *much* cheaper to cook from scratch.

 

[mgb_phys]

Governments should intervene by making nutrition and health topics mandatory in schools.

Well that really worked with sex and drugs.

 

[Loren Booda]

I am obese due to some life-saving medication I take. Just a fact.

In high school I could do 15 pull-ups, run a 5 minute mile, and race up the ten stories of stairs at the Payne Whitney gymnasium.

I have gone from 170 pounds to a current 220.

I have seriously dieted, exercised, etc. The medicine (also used for anorexia) makes food taste better, metabolism less efficient, the stomach less sensitive, the brain more famished, the body more lethargic, fat stored more readily and eating more habitual.

Obesity is not always someone's fault.

I still rag on "fat" people like most do, though.

 

[mgb_phys]

The medicine (also used for anorexia) makes food taste better, metabolism less efficient, the stomach less sensitive, the brain more famished, the body more lethargic, fat stored more readily and eating more habitual.

Is that what they put in the water in the US?

(ps. you know I'm not getting at you - I'm sorry for whatever you need the medicine for)

 

[Loren Booda]

Better than Russian "little water"!

 

[Moonbear]

Well that really worked with sex and drugs.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink. I agree that the best we really can do is offer the education, and then people still need to make choices for themselves about their own health.

Though, actually, sex education does work as they're discovering in those school districts where they abolished it for abstinence-only "education" and watched teen pregnancies and transmission of STDs rise.

And, I also agree with lisab that part of that education needs to be through example, by serving more nutritious, appropriately portioned school lunches.

Physicians can discuss with their patients healthy diets and exercise programs if they determine the patient is overweight or obese. But, again, they can't force their patients to do anything they don't want to do.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

When I was in school we had a mandatory health class that taught about proper diet and basic dietary science such as what a calorie is and the difference between simple and complex carbohydrates. As with most classes I doubt many people really paid much attention.

Recently many state level politicians have been pushing to increase taxes on junk food and ban junk food from being sold in schools. Fastfood restaurants have been sued and several such as McDonalds (who of course was the target of bad publicity from the movie "Super Size Me") have been increasing the number of healthy options on their menus. Though many in other countries seem to think it obesity is not an issue that gets over looked in the US.

And yes, it's *much* cheaper to cook from scratch.

That's if people know how to cook from scratch and, more importantly, know how to cook healthy meals from scratch.

Cost isn't the only issue for people in the lower economic strata. Many people hardly know how to cook unless they were taught by their parents who probably gave little thought to the healthiness of their meals. Many poor families are single parent families where the mother works long hours and possibly even two jobs just to make ends meet and is stressed and exhausted by the time she gets home if she is even able to be home for her kids when they have dinner. And what time they have is usually short so quick and easy meals are preferred.

On top of this is the issue of kids getting exercise. Many kids that live in the city don't have a whole lot of options for getting out and doing things. Skate boarding is a rather popular exercise activity for kids in an urban area and most places ban it. Most major cities have few if any places for kids, particularly teenage kids, to go and hang out and have fun unless they have money and want to play video games or some such which isn't exercise. At one of the apartment complexes I work at they had a body bag in the gym and some teenage kids decided to start going in there together to practice boxing and martial arts moves on the body bag (probably inspired by UFC). They got a bit rowdy on occasion but they caused no real trouble, only maybe annoyed some adults, and they always respected me as a security guard and listened when I asked them to keep it down or to not lounge around the exercise equipment. Management received complaints and now the body bag is gone along with the kids. Some of the kids also like to go and play basket ball or soccer on the courts for the complex. Already we are receiving complaints from residents about the noise when it is not even late. Poor kids playing sports and having a good time are just too often seen as troublesome hoodlums that are disturbing proper law abiding citizens. Unfortunately it is a general lack of anything to do and their preferred activities being denied them that usually leads to them going about tagging and causing mischief. In the end the only legitimate source of entertainment that most poor kids have is watching tv and playing video games.

 

[Moonbear]

When I was in school we had a mandatory health class that taught about proper diet and basic dietary science such as what a calorie is and the difference between simple and complex carbohydrates. As with most classes I doubt many people really paid much attention.

Yes, we had all of that taught when I was in school too. Along with sex ed and other health related issues.

That's if people know how to cook from scratch and, more importantly, know how to cook healthy meals from scratch.

Cost isn't the only issue for people in the lower economic strata. Many people hardly know how to cook unless they were taught by their parents who probably gave little thought to the healthiness of their meals. Many poor families are single parent families where the mother works long hours and possibly even two jobs just to make ends meet and is stressed and exhausted by the time she gets home if she is even able to be home for her kids when they have dinner. And what time they have is usually short so quick and easy meals are preferred.

You can make a quick and easy yet nutritious dinner. We had a lot of those when I was growing up, because when my father was alive, his work schedule could be very unpredictable and my mom often worked overtime too. Then, for a while, it was just my mom and us kids. I learned to cook at a young age so I could start dinner before mom got home (and we'd keep it warm for dad). We had a lot of meals that pretty much consisted of a frozen vegetable boiled (this was before we had a microwave), some type of potato, usually boiled or mashed (rarely, we had rice...I eat a lot of rice now, but my parents were never much into it), and meat either broiled or pan fried with just some basic seasonings (salt, pepper, garlic powder and onion powder...add some thyme for chicken). It was very basic, but that's what they could afford. We never had the pantry full of junk food (my aunt did, which is why she and my cousins were always overweight).

But, I think you're right that a lot of people today lack even that most basic skill of cooking a very simple meal, so get a lot of things that are microwaved or take-out.

Do they still teach home-ec in schools? I know a lot of those "elective" courses have disappeared over the years. But, that was a class that taught not just how to balance nutrition, but then how to actually cook the meal. When I was in school, it was a required class. Everyone had to learn a few basics of cooking and sewing (basically, just enough to mend a small tear in a seam or sew on a button, but that's more than a lot of people know). And, we also all had to take shop class, where we all had to learn to use some basic hand and power tools. I think these are important classes to continue, because everyone needs to know how to cook a basic meal, sew on a button, and do some minor repair jobs around the home. They're life skills that every high school graduate should have.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Do they still teach home-ec in schools?

In my junior high we had it as an elective class if I remember correctly. You could take it or something else. I don't remember being taught about nutrition in that class though. Maybe its just been a while. I do not remember having home ec in high school though. I think that there might be a bit of a PC stigma on home-ec class, especially around here. "Oh so you want to teach young girls how to be good little house wives while the boys are playing with their cars in shop class huh?"

I don't think we are very far apart in age (maybe you're even younger than me? ;-)) so you would probably be better informed about current high school classes from your students than I would be.

 

[vaatc]

The government should only push people along the path. For instance stop cutting physical education/health programs in the public school systems.

As for some of the comments above. Not all obese people are in that situation because they are unwilling to change, many of them just put themselves last and their health suffers for it. It has a lot to do with peoples own perception of their own self worth and less so with lack of motivation becuase many obesese people excell at other areas in their lives.

but with most behavioral issues there are many that are related to pure laziness and a lack luster view on life.

Mostly I agree, but it's not just parents.

Who sends their kids to school without a properly balanced meal?


EDIT: Just realized that you said "not just the parents", but most of the responsibility lays in the hands of the parents.


The parents.

 

[DanP]

I am obese due to some life-saving medication I take. Just a fact.

In high school I could do 15 pull-ups, run a 5 minute mile, and race up the ten stories of stairs at the Payne Whitney gymnasium.

I have gone from 170 pounds to a current 220.

I have seriously dieted, exercised, etc. The medicine (also used for anorexia) makes food taste better, metabolism less efficient, the stomach less sensitive, the brain more famished, the body more lethargic, fat stored more readily and eating more habitual.

Obesity is not always someone's fault.

I still rag on "fat" people like most do, though.

Loren, I agree that obesity is not someone's fault in all cases, but for the vast majority, pretending it's not their fault is just denial.

In your case, did you consulted a specialist to make you a nutritional program which may help you get better ?

 

[Count Iblis]

Well that really worked with sex and drugs.

I agree with Moonbear. I think sex education and education about drugs work ok. I think education about health can be improved a lot. Today's children don't exercise enough, don't sleep enough and the diet is not optimal. If you are below the age of 20 and generally healthy, you can get away with being in poor shape. You can still physically exert yourself enough witout being confronted that you are not in shape.

Bad habits can easily slip in this way. If you get older, then the body will store far more fat compared to someone who is in good physical shape even if they eat the same diet.

 

[Count Iblis]

I am obese due to some life-saving medication I take. Just a fact.

In high school I could do 15 pull-ups, run a 5 minute mile, and race up the ten stories of stairs at the Payne Whitney gymnasium.

I have gone from 170 pounds to a current 220.

I have seriously dieted, exercised, etc. The medicine (also used for anorexia) makes food taste better, metabolism less efficient, the stomach less sensitive, the brain more famished, the body more lethargic, fat stored more readily and eating more habitual.

Obesity is not always someone's fault.

I still rag on "fat" people like most do, though.

I know from my own experience when I was in high school that I could do that too even if I was unfit (e.g. just recovered from flu). If you are older then you do need to be in shape to run for 5 minutes at high speed.

The real test is if you can run nonstop for 30 minutes or so.

 

[DanP]

The real test is if you can run nonstop for 30 minutes or so.

The real test for what ? And running non-stop for 30 mins at what % of V02 max ?

Anyone can run 30 mins nonstop with several months of practice. Its not a big deal.

 

[leroyjenkens]

You don't even have to know how to cook to make a healthy meal. It's just that it might not taste as good as the unhealthy alternative. But you should eat to live, not live to eat.
Make a salad with spinach and other vegetables and a can of tuna mixed in for some taste. Then instead of pouring on the fat based dressing, use vinegar. Still hungry? Eat a can of beans. Still hungry? Drink some water and see if that works. That's what I do.

I think the problem is people sitting at home too much. They sit there at home watching TV or on the computer and they have food right there for them to eat all day.
If you're out doing something, away from home, you don't have the food available to you and you only eat when you really are hungry.

 

[FredGarvin]

Is that what they put in the water in the US?

And we all know that there are no obese people in GB...

 

[mgb_phys]

And we all know that there are no obese people in GB...

yes, but it's glandular

 

[Count Iblis]

The real test for what ? And running non-stop for 30 mins at what % of V02 max ?

Anyone can run 30 mins nonstop with several months of practice. Its not a big deal.

I mean really running and not just "fast jogging". I agree that most healthy persons should be able to get in shape in few months time. If you exercise about 30 minutes intensively every day, you are unlikely to get obese. That is not because you'll burn a little more calories due to exercising, but because the feedback loop that regulates your metabolic rate to keep your weight the same regardless of how much you eat (within some reasonable bandwith) works better if you are physically fit.

 

[Loren Booda]

In your case, did you consulted a specialist to make you a nutritional program which may help you get better ?

You know, a nutritionist may actually help.

 

[leroyjenkens]

I mean really running and not just "fast jogging".

So sprinting for 30 minutes? There's probably very few people in the world who can do that.

 

[DanP]

So sprinting for 30 minutes? There's probably very few people in the world who can do that.

No he doesn't mean that. *Nobody* can sprint over a distance of more than 200m. In track and field all events over 400 are getting into middle distance. 400m is already not a true sprint event.

 

[DanP]

You know, a nutritionist may actually help.

Im almost sure it will help. Most ppl I know who took on a light exercise program and got a sound nutritional program made great improvements in the quality of life. And this is why it's worth doing. Not because you'll look prettier in the mirror, but because it makes your life better.

You don't have anything to loose. I say, get clearance from your MD and get it rolling.

 

[whs]

I mean really running and not just "fast jogging". I agree that most healthy persons should be able to get in shape in few months time. If you exercise about 30 minutes intensively every day, you are unlikely to get obese. That is not because you'll burn a little more calories due to exercising, but because the feedback loop that regulates your metabolic rate to keep your weight the same regardless of how much you eat (within some reasonable bandwith) works better if you are physically fit.

I bet almost anyone has the ability to run 30 min non-stop without any training whatsoever. I also think the majority of those people would mentally quit before they hit that target. Sure they might feel horrible afterwords, throw up, break a bone what have you, but its possible.

I think many factors go into people being obese (that can help it). Number 1 and 2 are definitely exercise and eating habits. But those 2 factors seem to just be a part of peoples state of mind. Are there really adults out there that truly want to lose weight but have no idea how to accomplish that?

I agree with DanP about the nutritionist. Many people formulate numbers in their mind about their healthy body weight, when in reality they vary widely.

 

[DanP]

Many people formulate numbers in their mind about their healthy body weight, when in reality they vary widely.

For any non-athletic population, they should strive for a BMI in normal range, where health risks are minimal. Any rationalization over their over-weight is wrong.

BMI is a lousy measure for athletic populations. The issue is, I seen this reality used as a rationalization for overweight by non-athletes. It goes like this "I go to gym 3 times a week, hit the weights, so I can have 95kg at 180cm I am an athlete." No ****. You are an athlete with an 107 cm waist ? Those guys usually try to rationalize this way serious chunks of body fat percentage. If it would only work this way.

Correlating BMI and WHR gives a good image in most cases.

 

[gravenewworld]

I don't think so. You can't help people who don't want to be helped. A lot of obese people really want to lose weight, they just don't want to put in the work to make it happen.
You can teach nutrition and exercise, but beyond that, it's up to the individual.
The exception is kids. The kids don't know any better. In that case, it's the parent's fault.
A lot of people blame the price of healthy food. They say it's more expensive than unhealthy food. I think that's just an excuse. Depending on where you live, fruits and vegetables aren't expensive. It's just that they're too lazy to make a real meal and instead opt for the meals that are already made, or are easier to make, which are generally more unhealthy.

For most of us that is completely false. The way our food industry works is completely backwards. We make it cheaper for high calorie low nutrition foods, and make it much more expensive to buy wholesome products. It's no secret that the poor tend to have much higher rates of obesity, diabetes, and high blood pressure compared to their more wealthy counterparts.

http://www.csrees.usda.gov/newsroom/impact/2008/nri/03191_food_prices.html

The researchers found the price of calorie-dense food was less likely to rise as a result of inflation. During the 2-year study, the price of high-calorie food decreased by 1.8 percent, whereas the price of low-calorie foods increased by 19.5 percent. Considering most bargain shoppers are trying to stretch their incomes as far as possible, the findings may help explain why the highest rates of obesity are among people in lower-income groups.

Based on a standard 2000-calorie diet, the researchers found a diet consisting primarily of calorie-dense foods costs $3.52 a day, but a diet consisting primarily of low-calorie food costs $36.32 a day. The average American eats a variety of foods throughout the day, spending $7 a day.

The obesity epidemic is a multi faceted problem from personal choices to government policies. Why not take care of the problems that can be addressed through legislation? You can't force people to eat healthily, but you CAN make it much more appealing for them to do so. First off end corn subsidies. Ever since Nixon's presidency we have been paying farmers to vastly over produce corn with subsidies. Corn makes its way into our diets in a myriad of ways. Animals are no longer allowed to feed on grass because they can be fattened up much more quickly on a diet of corn, which can be bought extremely cheaply since it is overproduced. Steaks that come from a cow that is fattened up on diet of corn (which makes up 95% of beef that is sold in grocery stores) contain 6x's more saturated fat than a steak that comes from a cow that is grass fed. Not only that, but grass fed beef is also safer to consume. Chicken today contains 130% more saturated fat than it did in the 70's because chickens are pretty much only given corn to eat. Study after study has correlated higher rates of high fructose corn syrup consumption with higher levels of obesity. HFCS is in almost everything you eat that is not fresh because subsidies have made HFCS cheaper than real sugar.
No one is denying the role personal responsibility plays in obesity, but how many people ask questions about what happened to the quality of our food?

 

[Count Iblis]

So sprinting for 30 minutes? There's probably very few people in the world who can do that.

No, as DanP said, that's not what I meant. Look, there is a difference between "jogging" and "running". I work out almost every day for 25 minutes at quite a fast speed, but of course not "sprinting speed".

I'm sure most people will not be able to keep up with my pace. People who are not fit could perhaps keep up with me for 2 minutes and then have to stop. They could also run for 30 minutes at slow jogging speed and then, as whs said, feel horrible afterwards.

 

[Evo]

Chicken today contains 130% more saturated fat than it did in the 70's because chickens are pretty much only given corn to eat.

Please post the study that shows corn is the reason that chicken contains more fat and not a change in breeding.

The only thing I could even remotely find is this article, which at the end is disputed.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article376661.ece

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Animals are no longer allowed to feed on grass because they can be fattened up much more quickly on a diet of corn, which can be bought extremely cheaply since it is overproduced. Steaks that come from a cow that is fattened up on diet of corn (which makes up 95% of beef that is sold in grocery stores) contain 6x's more saturated fat than a steak that comes from a cow that is grass fed.

Beef cattle are primarily fed on grass and the cows that get the most in corn supplements are dairy cows.

 

[mgb_phys]

Beef cattle are primarily fed on grass

Depends where - I was shocked at the number of 'farms' in California that were just 1000s of cattle in an enclosure almost side by side, with their head through the fence eating concentrate being dumped from a truck.

 

[leroyjenkens]

For most of us that is completely false. The way our food industry works is completely backwards. We make it cheaper for high calorie low nutrition foods, and make it much more expensive to buy wholesome products.

And what are some examples of these cheap high calorie foods? Because the vegetables I make my salads out of and the fruit I eat is pretty cheap. Same with my cans of beans.

Based on a standard 2000-calorie diet, the researchers found a diet consisting primarily of calorie-dense foods costs $3.52 a day, but a diet consisting primarily of low-calorie food costs $36.32 a day.

I don't even make 36 dollars a day, yet I eat tons of fruit and spinach salads every day. 36 dollars is ridiculously high and 3.52 dollars is ridiculously low. I can't even survive on McDonalds for that little. What calorie dense foods are that cheap? Ramen noodles? That's about all I can think of.

Chicken today contains 130% more saturated fat than it did in the 70's because chickens are pretty much only given corn to eat.

I think that's because it's mostly deep fried. None of the chicken I buy has saturated fat. If it does, it's VERY LITTLE. I can't find any that does, other than the fried kind.

If chicken had very little saturated fat to begin with, adding 130% more wouldn't be that much. In this case, using a big number like that sounds like sensationalism.

It's no secret that the poor tend to have much higher rates of obesity, diabetes, and high blood pressure compared to their more wealthy counterparts.

That could be for a number of reasons. Maybe they're lazy, hence why they're poor.

No, as DanP said, that's not what I meant. Look, there is a difference between "jogging" and "running".

You said "really running and not just fast jogging". That implies faster than "fast jogging", which is starting to get into the realm of sprinting.

 

[Evo]

Depends where - I was shocked at the number of 'farms' in California that were just 1000s of cattle in an enclosure almost side by side, with their head through the fence eating concentrate being dumped from a truck.

Again, it's not what they're fed on, but how they are raised.

The article I posted showed that "organic" chickens were very high in fat because not only do they not get exercise, they are fed artificial feed.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Depends where - I was shocked at the number of 'farms' in California that were just 1000s of cattle in an enclosure almost side by side, with their head through the fence eating concentrate being dumped from a truck.

They may have been dairy cattle. It is apparently part of USDA guidelines for certain labels that beef cattle are primarily fed by grazing though there are supposedly loopholes and other ways around this that some farmers take advantage of. There was an article cited by another member regarding the land used to feed cattle which I can not find right now. It was overwhelming pasture land. I'll see if I can find it. Here is a poorly sourced wiki article though...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cattle_feeding

edit: here's a Canadian page at least...
http://www.cattle.ca/just-facts-land-management/

80% to 85% of the feed consumed by cattle is made up of grasses and forages that are inedible by people.

 

[Proton Soup]

Please post the study that shows corn is the reason that chicken contains more fat and not a change in breeding.

The only thing I could even remotely find is this article, which at the end is disputed.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article376661.ece

http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/" shows 0.790g sat fat per 100g for "Chicken, broilers or fryers, meat only, raw"

i wouldn't doubt feeding affects the fat profile, but it's still not much fat (and even less sat fat), and even less if you eat breast meat only. bigger problem is people getting their "meat" from frozen prepared dinners that easily triple calories and carbs and fats by battering and frying the product.

 

[Proton Soup]

as for why we are fat:

Am J Clin Nutr. 2009 Oct 14. [Epub ahead of print]

Increased food energy supply is more than sufficient to explain the US epidemic of obesity.

Swinburn B, Sacks G, Ravussin E.

From Deakin University, Melbourne, Australia, and the Pennington Biomedical Research Center, Baton Rouge, LA.

BACKGROUND: The major drivers of the obesity epidemic are much debated and have considerable policy importance for the population-wide prevention of obesity. OBJECTIVE: The objective was to determine the relative contributions of increased energy intake and reduced physical activity to the US obesity epidemic. DESIGN: We predicted the changes in weight from the changes in estimated energy intakes in US children and adults between the 1970s and 2000s. The increased US food energy supply (adjusted for wastage and assumed to be proportional to energy intake) was apportioned to children and adults and inserted into equations that relate energy intake to body weight derived from doubly labeled water studies. The weight increases predicted from the equations were compared with weight increases measured in representative US surveys over the same period. RESULTS: For children, the measured weight gain was 4.0 kg, and the predicted weight gain for the increased energy intake was identical at 4.0 kg. For adults, the measured weight gain was 8.6 kg, whereas the predicted weight gain was somewhat higher (10.8 kg). CONCLUSIONS: Increased energy intake appears to be more than sufficient to explain weight gain in the US population. A reversal of the increase in energy intake of approximately 2000 kJ/d (500 kcal/d) for adults and of 1500 kJ/d (350 kcal/d) for children would be needed for a reversal to the mean body weights of the 1970s. Alternatively, large compensatory increases in physical activity (eg, 110-150 min/d walking), or a combination of both, would achieve the same outcome. Population approaches to reducing obesity should emphasize a reduction in the drivers of increased energy intake.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

And what are some examples of these cheap high calorie foods? Because the vegetables I make my salads out of and the fruit I eat is pretty cheap. Same with my cans of beans.

Many canned vegetables are processed in such a manner as to have far less nutritional value and often they contain significant quantities of sodium. They are not very good for you.

I can get frozen burritos for about $0.25 a piece or less. I can get a bag or can of chips for about $2-$3 and a bunch of grapes costs approximately $8-$10. There are frozen dinners that cost approximately $2, or less if they are on sale. A bag of good spaghetti noodles will cost about $2 dollars, a jar of sauce will cost about $3, a few pieces of chicken will cost about $4-$5 dollars, and even just some frozen vegetables will cost about $2-$3. Compare a box of mac and cheese for $1-$2 and a package of hotdogs for about $3-$4 with those same vegetables and you can see a significant price difference with a significant health difference. How about buying in quantity to save? A large bag of frozen chicken at about $10 versus a large package of hotdogs for about $6. Buy a large bag of oranges or apples for about $8-$10? Or a large variety pack of small bags of chips for about $5-$6?

A few months ago I got tired of snacking on chips at work so I went to look at fruits and the options were at least twice as expensive as chips. Tortilla chips and salsa aren't that bad for me any way I hope.

 

[DanP]

You said "really running and not just fast jogging". That implies faster than "fast jogging", which is starting to get into the realm of sprinting.

You are not correct. Please stop making all those kinds of unfounded statements, it helps no one. I guess you never run a track event in your life, this is OK, but just let qualifications on what consist "sprinting" aside.

 

[DanP]

No one is denying the role personal responsibility plays in obesity, but how many people ask questions about what happened to the quality of our food?

I do believe that the quality of the food declined a bit, but I don't consider it the main factor for on raise the obesity epidemic. Rather than food origin (organic vs normal) , I believe that a more important determinant is food availability. (Not that I deny the fact that left unregulated the food industry would make us very bad surprises).

Calories abundant meals are everywhere. In your house, on the streets , near your school at McWhatever. Many times when you drink something, you don't drink water, but a soft drink with even more calories. There is a general availability of food even for some of the most poor members of the society, while at the same time the daily energy expenditure dropped by more than 1000kcal in the last 150 years.

A thing which I always considered interesting is the obsession of ppl with various kinds of diets. Especially with diets which consist of what they perceive was the diet of "paleolithic man". Big strong primitive hunter which our average fat guy wants so much to be.

Why just don't follow the governmental guidelines for nutrition ? A site like mypyramid.gov contains all the information required for average Joe to eat reasonably healthy and correctly.

 

[leroyjenkens]

Many canned vegetables are processed in such a manner as to have far less nutritional value and often they contain significant quantities of sodium. They are not very good for you.

That's why I specified beans. They're a great source of protein. And there's reduced sodium versions, too. They have more sodium, but that doesn't automatically make the food bad, especially if you're not getting enough sodium from other things. I think most of that sodium comes from the thick syrup stuff that they put it in. I pour that out anyway.
And besides all that, we're talking about calorie dense foods.

I can get frozen burritos for about $0.25 a piece or less. I can get a bag or can of chips for about $2-$3 and a bunch of grapes costs approximately $8-$10. There are frozen dinners that cost approximately $2, or less if they are on sale. A bag of good spaghetti noodles will cost about $2 dollars, a jar of sauce will cost about $3, a few pieces of chicken will cost about $4-$5 dollars, and even just some frozen vegetables will cost about $2-$3. Compare a box of mac and cheese for $1-$2 and a package of hotdogs for about $3-$4 with those same vegetables and you can see a significant price difference with a significant health difference. How about buying in quantity to save? A large bag of frozen chicken at about $10 versus a large package of hotdogs for about $6. Buy a large bag of oranges or apples for about $8-$10? Or a large variety pack of small bags of chips for about $5-$6?

Seems like you're estimating a little low for the unhealthy foods and a little high for the fruits and vegetables. I've never seen grapes, oranges and apples that expensive. And 25 cents per burrito is extremely cheap.
You could make your own burritos which could be healthy for not much more than the pre-made ones. My friend and I made a healthy pizza with whole wheat crust, low fat cheese and vegetables on it for cheaper than it would be to buy from Dominos.
Chips are expensive. I love Doritos, but 4 dollars for a bag of them isn't worth it. There's other, cheaper brands, but I'm not paying that much for a bag full of mostly air.

What about other foods that are healthy and cheap? Like eggs. I once bought a dozen eggs for 75 cents from Walgreens. Cereal is sometimes expensive, but when you notice you get at least three meals out of one box, it's not that expensive. The least sugary ones are usually the least expensive too. Just look for sales. Like a huge box of plain mini wheats for two dollars. Put a little honey on it and it tastes fine.

It's just most people don't want to find the healthy, cheap alternatives. They reason that they can either buy 50 burritos for 25 cents each, or they can buy all organic foods. Since obviously those must be the only two options.

Tortilla chips and salsa aren't that bad for me any way I hope.

Well if you hold it to the same standard you do for the canned beans, then it's horrible for you.

You are not correct. Please stop making all those kinds of unfounded statements, it helps no one. I guess you never run a track event in your life, this is OK, but just let qualifications on what consist "sprinting" aside.

There's so many things wrong with what you just said, I don't even know where to begin.
I'm not correct? What am I not correct about? I said a couple of different things. Am I just wrong about the entire thing? Not even one thing I said was right? Saying someone is wrong and not giving the correct answer is fruitless.
What did I say that was unfounded? And how do you know it's not correct, since it's not something you said, it's something someone ELSE said? You're speaking FOR them.
And the icing on the cake is taking a jab at me that I've never ran a track event in my life. How is that even relevant? If you run a track event, you suddenly become magically enlightened at what the exact definition of "fast jogging" is?

 

[Count Iblis]

If you run a track event, you suddenly become magically enlightened at what the exact definition of "fast jogging" is?

Perhaps if you just visit a track event, you'll see that the participants are running much faster than most people who you see jogging every day on the street.

Compare with cycling. A top sprinter can deliver a power of 2000 Watt for a minute or so. A top cyclist in a time trial lasting for one hour can manage 500 Watt (e.g. Indurain). An amateur cyclist will typically manage 300 Watt. When I was training on home trainers a long time ago, I trained at 220 Watt for 25 minutes. But this was not my maximum. Not only should one train at around 70% to 80% of maximum effort, but on a hometrainer you sweat so much when you get above 200 watt that you won't perform optimally. I was also training outside on my bike and I'm sure I was doing more than 220 Watt there, but there is no way to know exactly how much.

If someone who is fast jogging were to train on a home trainer and exert himself to the same degree, I think he would fall well short of 200 Watt. If you are not fit, you'll have trouble getting to 100 Watt even for a few minutes.

 

[leroyjenkens]

Perhaps if you just visit a track event, you'll see that the participants are running much faster than most people who you see jogging every day on the street.

That's obvious. You don't have to go anywhere to know that people who run track run faster than your average joe on the street.

If someone who is fast jogging were to train on a home trainer and exert himself to the same degree, I think he would fall well short of 200 Watt. If you are not fit, you'll have trouble getting to 100 Watt even for a few minutes.

Fast jogging is dependant on the person. It's not a set speed. My fast jogging would be Usain Bolt's slow jogging. Just because people exist who "fast jog" faster than me, doesn't mean that what I'm doing isn't fast jogging too.

 

[Phrak]

Corn. I blame it all on corn and clever chemists. The major components of a happy meal derive from corn--minus the fries, that is.

Produced in the US at 5 pounds per person per day, it's very popular.

 

[GeorginaS]

I think that one of the big issues with healthy eating (not including people like turbo who can grow most of what they need) is the cap-investment cost of ingredients. Sure, once you have that homemade pot of stew on the stove, per-serving its cost is less than the cost of fast food, but the initial amount of money on-hand required to make that pot of stew is far more than the cost of one McBurger.

And decent food prices are had at larger versions of the chain supermarkets that are located at city limits, not in downtown cores. So people living in the middle of cities require some form of transportation to get them to and from. Public transit doesn't always get you there. Most inner-city people don't own cars. Taxis to go and do groceries is an expensive proposition. Corner grocery stores in inner cities are far, far more expensive than the Superstore on the city limits. People with means have way better access to less expensive foods.

There was a study done here not too long ago that demonstrated that the cost of food in lower-income neighbourhoods was than that in more affluent areas. A Safeway store in a less affluent neighbourhood charges more for the same items as a Safeway store out in suburbia. The first reason is that the inner-city Safeway likely has a captive audience. They're the only large chain grocer in the neighbourhood and most people are on foot. When you travel to the outer limits of the city, there's more competition, and people are driving, and therefore have choices. Safeway has to be more competitive in those areas therefore food costs less.

But, truly, a pound of lean ground beef is going to cost, on average, around $3.50 - $4.00. Add a can of tomatoes, a can of beans, some spices (that have an initial cost outlay) a little salt, pepper, and what has a pot of chili cost to make? (And one pound of ground beef isn't making a large quantity. How many people are you going to be able to feed with that?) (That's without adding, say, an onion and some chopped garlic for flavour.) (And never mind adding a green vegetable like a salad, a glass of milk, and maybe a piece of fruit for desert.) Using an actual grocery receipt for numbers, and guessing at the actual cost of spices used (not what it cost to buy the whole package of spice in the first place) and I've come up with $9.12 to make a small pot of chili. Now, what's easier to come by, particularly near the end of the month before payday? $10.00 (assuming you already have the balance of ingredients at home) or $1.49 for a McHappy Meal?

 

[DanP]

What did I say that was unfounded? And how do you know it's not correct, since it's not something you said, it's something someone ELSE said? You're speaking FOR them.
And the icing on the cake is taking a jab at me that I've never ran a track event in my life. How is that even relevant? If you run a track event, you suddenly become magically enlightened at what the exact definition of "fast jogging" is?

There is nothing wrong with what I said. You don't understand what a sprint event is. You don't understand the bio-energetics. Its as simple as that. Painfully clear from your posts, and your statements that a fast run over 30 mins gets into the realm of sprinting. ~30 min at high levels represents 10km, a long distance event. The average 10k tempo is somewhere close to 90% of your Vo2 max.

Actually trying some of the things you talk about won't magically make you understand the theory you lack. But you will gain a pretty good idea of what sprint events are. And how medium distance running is different from them. And why they can't qualify as "getting into the realm of sprinting".

 

[Proton Soup]

I think that one of the big issues with healthy eating (not including people like turbo who can grow most of what they need) is the cap-investment cost of ingredients. Sure, once you have that homemade pot of stew on the stove, per-serving its cost is less than the cost of fast food, but the initial amount of money on-hand required to make that pot of stew is far more than the cost of one McBurger.

maybe also a time thing and fewer stay-at-home moms.

And decent food prices are had at larger versions of the chain supermarkets that are located at city limits, not in downtown cores. So people living in the middle of cities require some form of transportation to get them to and from. Public transit doesn't always get you there. Most inner-city people don't own cars. Taxis to go and do groceries is an expensive proposition. Corner grocery stores in inner cities are far, far more expensive than the Superstore on the city limits. People with means have way better access to less expensive foods.

There was a study done here not too long ago that demonstrated that the cost of food in lower-income neighbourhoods was than that in more affluent areas. A Safeway store in a less affluent neighbourhood charges more for the same items as a Safeway store out in suburbia. The first reason is that the inner-city Safeway likely has a captive audience. They're the only large chain grocer in the neighbourhood and most people are on foot. When you travel to the outer limits of the city, there's more competition, and people are driving, and therefore have choices. Safeway has to be more competitive in those areas therefore food costs less.

shoplifting raises the costs of doing business, and taxes may be higher.

But, truly, a pound of lean ground beef is going to cost, on average, around $3.50 - $4.00. Add a can of tomatoes, a can of beans, some spices (that have an initial cost outlay) a little salt, pepper, and what has a pot of chili cost to make? (And one pound of ground beef isn't making a large quantity. How many people are you going to be able to feed with that?) (That's without adding, say, an onion and some chopped garlic for flavour.) (And never mind adding a green vegetable like a salad, a glass of milk, and maybe a piece of fruit for desert.) Using an actual grocery receipt for numbers, and guessing at the actual cost of spices used (not what it cost to buy the whole package of spice in the first place) and I've come up with $9.12 to make a small pot of chili. Now, what's easier to come by, particularly near the end of the month before payday? $10.00 (assuming you already have the balance of ingredients at home) or $1.49 for a McHappy Meal?

you can certainly pay a lot more to eat decent food. some staples aren't so bad, tho. milk/eggs/dried beans/rice/potatoes/bananas/apples & oranges (by the bag!)/frozen chicken breasts/frozen veggies & berries won't set you back too bad, at least at the walmarts.

 

[GeorginaS]

shoplifting raises the costs of doing business, and taxes may be higher.

Are you suggesting that there's defacto higher stealing in lower income neighbourhoods? But, so, anyway, I was quoting a prof and material from a marketing course that supports personal observation about the cost of groceries in lower income neighbourhoods.

you can certainly pay a lot more to eat decent food. some staples aren't so bad, tho. milk/eggs/dried beans/rice/potatoes/bananas/apples & oranges (by the bag!)/frozen chicken breasts/frozen veggies & berries won't set you back too bad, at least at the walmarts.

And, again, each individual ingredient may not be so costly, but the number of ingredients required for decent meals leads to an up-front larger cost than an individual junk food purchase, and Wal-Mart tends to be on city limits and hence requires a car and then has the attendant transportation problems I pointed out and etc.

 

[Proton Soup]

Are you suggesting that there's defacto higher stealing in lower income neighbourhoods? But, so, anyway, I was quoting a prof and material from a marketing course that supports personal observation about the cost of groceries in lower income neighbourhoods.

yes, I'm suggesting higher stealing. i'd also suggest a lower sales volume in lower income neighborhoods that adds to the expense of doing business there. in any case, there certainly valid reasons for the prices being higher, i'd think. the captive audience theory sounds appealing if you think companies are just mean, but around here, wherever Home Depot has opened a store, Lowes locates nearby. it's almost as if capitalism is captive to its consumers.

 

[leroyjenkens]

Painfully clear from your posts, and your statements that a fast run over 30 mins gets into the realm of sprinting. ~30 min at high levels represents 10km, a long distance event. The average 10k tempo is somewhere close to 90% of your Vo2 max.

I never said that. When did I specify over 30 minutes?

Actually trying some of the things you talk about won't magically make you understand the theory you lack. But you will gain a pretty good idea of what sprint events are. And how medium distance running is different from them. And why they can't qualify as "getting into the realm of sprinting".

I know exactly what sprinting events are. You don't have to compete in them to know that they're short distance.
Anyone who thinks sprinters sprint for 30 minutes is living on another planet.