Undergrad Time dilation again, Einstein or Resnick?

Click For Summary
The discussion centers on the concept of time dilation in special relativity, comparing the interpretations of Einstein and Resnick. Einstein's explanation emphasizes the non-reciprocal nature of time dilation when one clock is in motion relative to another, while Resnick suggests that both clocks appear to run slow from each other's perspectives. Participants argue that understanding the relativity of simultaneity is crucial to resolving these apparent contradictions. They also explore the complexities of synchronizing clocks in relative motion, concluding that true synchronization is not feasible due to the inherent differences in time perception. The conversation highlights the nuances of interpreting time dilation and the importance of context in relativity.
  • #31
1977ub said:
If you have one traveler moving in a circle around the other, you have removed the constant inertial frame from the one traveler, and the result is less paradoxical. The observer in the middle will find that the circling traveler has a slower clock, and the circling traveler will simply agree: the non-circling observer has a clock which is ticking faster than his own.

That goes straight from Einstein 1905 paper. He doesn't mention that the observer is non inertial. According to Einstein, from the point of view of a moving observer a clock at rest „is ticking faster“. Since rotating observer can never be „at rest“, he always measures that a clock in the center is ticking faster. But, Einstein's calculation works perfectly well for inertial observer also.

Here it is:

https://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/ - § 7. Theory of Doppler's Principle and of Aberration

From the equation for ##\omega'## it follows that if an observer is moving with velocity ##v## relatively to an infinitely distant source of light of frequency ##\nu##, in such a way that the connecting line “source-observer” makes the angle ##\varphi## with the velocity of the observer referred to a system of co-ordinates which is at rest relatively to the source of light, the frequency of the light perceived by the observer is given by the equation

$$\nu= \nu' \frac {(1-\cos\varphi \cdot v/c)}{\sqrt {1-v^2/c^2}}$$

We see that, in contrast with the customary view, when ##v=-c, \nu'=\infty##

It follows from these results that to an observer approaching a source of light with the velocity c, this source of light must appear of infinite intensity.


So, in Transverse condition ray of light from the source moves at right angle to direction of motion of the observer. If observer rotates, it always comes at right angle to direction of its motion. Rotating observer always moves at tangential to wavefront. In classical case there is no Doppler effect. So, ## \cos \pi/2 = 0## and purely Transverse effect is seen

$$\nu= \frac {\nu'}{\sqrt {1-v^2/c^2}}$$

According to celebrated Einstein's 1905 paper, both rotating and the inertial observer (who momentarily coincides with the rotating one) will see, that clock in the center of the circumference is ticking faster.
 
Last edited:
Physics news on Phys.org
  • #32
Orodruin said:
Technically that is differential ageing, not time dilation. Time dilation is more related to parametrising both curves by the ##x##-coordinate and comparing the path length up to a given value of that parameter.
Proper time is parametrization invariant as well as Poincare invariant. That's why it makes life so much easier than all these discussions with Lorentz transformations and Minkowski diagrams, although one should of course treat them in the introductory lecture on SR to some extent.
 
  • #33
vanhees71 said:
Proper time is parametrization invariant as well as Poincare invariant. That's why it makes life so much easier than all these discussions with Lorentz transformations and Minkowski diagrams, although one should of course treat them in the introductory lecture on SR to some extent.
Indeed, but time-dilation as usually presented is comparing a coordinate time to proper time. This requires a time coordinate and therefore a frame dependent simultaneity convention.
 
  • Like
Likes robphy
  • #34
exmarine said:
You guys must be professors if you are concerned about how to teach this stuff. Then you might be interested in my opinion about learning it. Forget about teaching “simultaneity” for beginners! I’ve been studying physics when possible for the last 8 years since I retired, have acquired about a dozen textbooks, been through all of Susskind’s lectures on Special, General, Cosmology, and my eyes still glaze over when anyone mentions that. It is far too convoluted and tedious for beginners – long trains, bolts of lightning at various places and times, etc., etc.

Trying to learn relativity without confronting the issue of simultaneity is like building a house without a key foundation. One day your perceived understanding will collapse.

For example, this thread started with your post, including:

exmarine said:
I continue to see references to time dilation that I don’t understand. Maybe the bluntest one is in a textbook by Resnick. Introduction to Special Relativity, p. 93: “Indeed we find that the phenomena are reciprocal. That is, just as A’s clock seems to B to run slow, so does B’s clock seem to run slow to A;”

Resnick’s version does not seem logically possible, that somehow both clocks could “seem to be running slow” relative to each other. Any help understanding this would be appreciated.

It's clear, therefore, that your knowledge of SR is not yet on a solid foundation. In my view, you do need to confront the simultaneity issue.

As for its being convoluted, all you need is a light source in the middle of a vehicle. In the vehicle's frame light from the source hits both ends of the vehicle simultaneously. Yet, in a frame where the vehicle is moving the light reaches the rear of the vehicle first. Thus, simultaneity is frame dependent. It's that simple.
 
  • Like
Likes Orodruin
  • #35
exmarine said:
Maybe this is related to an earlier question I posted some time ago, and got no serious responses: Is it possible to synchronize two clocks already in relative motion? If so, exactly how? And I am referring to their running rates, not some trivial possible origin offsets. If I remember correctly, Einstein was always careful to specify that the clocks were "good" or some such word, meaning to me at least, that at some time in the past they had occupied a common reference frame and had their running rates synchronized...

Thanks.
Assume you have two rows of clocks as shown in the following animation. You have arranged things such that, even though the top row is moving relative to the bottom row at some fraction of the speed of light, the top row of clocks have had their distances and tick rates adjusted so that they line up with the lower row of clocks and tick at the same rate at seen by the lower row, so you get this( in this GIF the clocks run from 12:00 to 2:00 and then reset):
clock_sync1.gif


Now consider the same scenario, but as seen from the view upper row, where the lower row would be seen as moving from right to left, you end up with this:

clock_snyc2.gif

The bottom row of clocks are spaced closer together, run slower and are not synced to each other. However, whenever a clock in the upper row and one in the lower row pass each other, they still read exactly the same time, just as they do in the first animation.

In the first animation, we had to adjust the distance between the top row of clocks to counteract length contraction(notice how in the second animation, done from the upper row's rest frame, the clocks are further apart), the tick rate to counteract Time dilation, the relative clock reading to counteract the Relativity of Simultaneity( in its own rest frame, the upper row of clocks are not in sync.). We had to do this in order to get that nice arrangement of evenly spaced clocks all ticking together as seen by the bottom row. So for example, if the distance between the lower row clocks is 0.5 light hr, and the relative speed between the rows is 0.5c, Then the upper row of clocks is length contracted by a factor of 0.866 as measured by the lower row, and for them to appear to be 0.5 light hr apart, they must be ~0.577 light hr apart as measured in their own frame. The same happens for tick rate and the simultaneity between the individual clocks.

when you switch to the top row, you measure the proper distances, tick rates, etc for that frame, but now the lower row is time dilated, length contracted, etc. But is all works together to ensure that no matter which row you are watching from, when an upper clock passes a lower clock, they both read the same time (12:00, 1:00, 2:00, etc)
 

Attachments

  • clock_snyc2.gif
    clock_snyc2.gif
    806.4 KB · Views: 561
  • clock_sync1.gif
    clock_sync1.gif
    826 KB · Views: 599
  • #36
PeroK said:
Trying to learn relativity without confronting the issue of simultaneity is like building a house without a key foundation. One day your perceived understanding will collapse.

For example, this thread started with your post, including:
It's clear, therefore, that your knowledge of SR is not yet on a solid foundation. In my view, you do need to confront the simultaneity issue.

As for its being convoluted, all you need is a light source in the middle of a vehicle. In the vehicle's frame light from the source hits both ends of the vehicle simultaneously. Yet, in a frame where the vehicle is moving the light reaches the rear of the vehicle first. Thus, simultaneity is frame dependent. It's that simple.
Relativity of Simultaneity, is likely the hardest concept for people to accept in regards to Relativity. It is so difficult to shake the idea that "now" is universal. But once you get it, the rest is easy.
It somewhat reminds me of back when I was taking flying lessons. Our instructor told us that we would be doing our flight training in a Piper Tomahawk, which was the best plane to learn to fly with, because it was the hardest plane to learn to fly with. If you could learn to fly a Tomahawk, flying anything else would be a piece of cake.
 
  • #37
Erland said:
I think you are completely wrong. In my opinion, when learning relativity, one should learn relativity of simultaneity BEFORE one learns time dilation and length contraction. Indeed, one should learn relativity of simultaneity as an immediate consequence of the two postulates of SR.
I agree with this and go further to say before and separate, as part of Newtonian physics. For whatever reason, we get an awful lot of beginners here thinking that all of SR can be explained with RoS, which eliminates what makes Einstein's relativity different from Newton's. If we use Newton's approach, the twins end up the same age, missing what's really "special" about SR.
 
  • #38
Janus said:
Relativity of Simultaneity, is likely the hardest concept for people to accept in regards to Relativity. It is so difficult to shake the idea that "now" is universal.
While I've seen that is true on PF, I don't get it. People deal with it every day of their lives in other contexts, like estimating the distance to a lightning strike by counting the delay before the thunder gets to them!

I'm losing track of threads, but it might have been you who pointed out in another thread that UTC is the same everywhere on Earth, which assumes a non-rotating Earth and a certain synchronization technique (subtracting-out the signal delay from Grenwhich). Do you think this sort of thing is what causes people to be confused about the existence of a universal "now"? Is putting the signal delay back in an easy way to fix it?
 
  • #39
Janus said:
Relativity of Simultaneity, is likely the hardest concept for people to accept in regards to Relativity.
There is some evidence to support this
https://arxiv.org/abs/physics/0207109
 
  • Like
Likes Orodruin
  • #40
As others have said, the relativity of simultaneity is absolutely critical to understanding relativity, and if you've missed it then you have a problem. For example, without the relativity of simultaneity the twin paradox is genuinely paradoxical.
 
  • #41
russ_watters said:
I agree with this and go further to say before and separate, as part of Newtonian physics. For whatever reason, we get an awful lot of beginners here thinking that all of SR can be explained with RoS, which eliminates what makes Einstein's relativity different from Newton's. If we use Newton's approach, the twins end up the same age, missing what's really "special" about SR.
I'm not sure I follow. Are you suggesting there is relativity of simultaneity in Newtonian physics??! (signal delays have nothing to do with whether or not there is absolute simultaneity).
 
  • #42
Relativity of simultaneity is the key point. Forget about the twin paradox, and let’s focus on the famous muon decay experiment, (you can see the experiment in a PSSC video here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CeQXsIiGp8 ). So the "traveling" muon, in its own reference system, survives “A” seconds, while in the Earth’s reference system it survives “B” seconds, with B>A. No acceleration is involved, so no GR to help us out. The question is, what if we consider the muon's point of view about the Earth’s clocks? SR says that according to the muon, the Earth’s clock should run slower that the muon’s ones, so we should have B<A! Solution? Ok, bear in mind that the so called time dilation is just one of the consequences of Lorentz’s transformations, especially of the “time” portion, which is the portion that describes the relativity of simultaneity. I hope the first 15 minutes of this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAkbnVAI0VE could help you visualize the effect of relativity of simultaneity (and the Lorentz transformation space time dependence) and grasp the solution. The confusion arises from the fact that nobody usually uses Lorentz’s transformation to show the time dilation effect. You usually find a simple ( and correct) shortcut that deals with light bouncing back and forth between two mirrors. But that shortcut forces you to miss the “bigger picture” that stays in relativity of simultaneity.
 
  • #43
asca said:
No acceleration is involved, so no GR to help us out.
It is a common misconception that GR is required to handle acceleration. It is not.
 
  • Like
Likes vanhees71
  • #44
Orodruin said:
Indeed, but time-dilation as usually presented is comparing a coordinate time to proper time. This requires a time coordinate and therefore a frame dependent simultaneity convention.
Sure. For this purpose you simply parametrize the timelike trajectory of the clock with the time coordinate of the given reference frame. For the treatment of the twin paradox for a twin moving on a circle as an example, see

https://th.physik.uni-frankfurt.de/~hees/pf-faq/srt.pdf

As hopefully becomes clear, here the "proper times" of two observers, called Alice and Bob in the manuscript is compared, i.e., two physically well defined times!
 
  • #45
I am intrigued by perceptions of the consequences of SR. In the A, B, Bob and Alice type example given earlier, it is the case that observations of time dilation (and length contraction) are reciprocal between the two observers due to their relative velocities and the einstein equations do show this. However, from a physical point of view, it seems to me that all such relativistic effects as we observe them (or would if we could) can be interpreted as a function of the doppler shifting of photons emitted from a relatively moving source. As such, relativistic mechanics seems a bit illusory. Maybe I am missing something ?
 
  • #46
pm3142 said:
Maybe I am missing something ?
Clearly, but unless you show us your misunderstanding, there is no way to correct it.
 
  • #47
pm3142 said:
As such, relativistic mechanics seems a bit illusory. Maybe I am missing something ?

You are missing quite a lot. We are not able to undertake space travel at relativistic speeds, but if we could then the differential ageing of astronauts would be far from an illusion.

Moreover, as you may know, clocks within the GPS satellite system are configured to take into account time dilation.
 
  • #48
Heres a thought. Any misunderstanding is tied up with this.

Consider this: Ship A heads off to a point 1 light year away in space (assume rapid acceleration). Once top speed is reached, say 99.9% lightspeed we make an observation through the 'porthole' and we see evidence of dilated time onboard the ship. However, the ship IS moving at almost lightspeed with respect to the stationary observer and WILL reach its destination in 1 year and by turning around, return in another year. So, two years have passed to the stationary observer for the return journey. Onboard ship, time is dilated to the point where the relative scale of time is vastly different from that outside the ship.The journey still apparently takes two years though to those on board. So my question is this: What is it that the stationary observer is actually seeing in this thought experiment?. Its tempting to think that what may be observed is a stretched photonic wavefront that is essentially more static relative to the external (or stationary) time frame. Once the ship returns in two years to the stationary reference frame, this observed wave front collapses and the scale of time is observed to be synchronised again between the reference frames. However, only two years have actually passed for both observers.
 
  • #49
pm3142 said:
The journey still apparently takes two years though to those on board.

No, it doesn't. It takes two years (or a little longer since the ship can't quite reach the speed of light) according to those on Earth. It takes a much, much shorter time according to those on board.
 
  • #50
So are you saying when they set off on their journey across one light year they perceive they got there in less than a year?
 
  • #51
pm3142 said:
So are you saying when they set off on their journey across one light year they perceive they got there in less than a year?
Yes, this is shown by how many muons created in the upper atmosphere by cosmic rays reach the ground. Their half life is 2 microseconds. Almost none should reach the ground, yet most of them actually do. We, on the ground see them taking 10s of microseconds to reach the ground, but almost all arrive without decaying because for the muon much less than 2 microseconds elapsed.
 
  • #52
Thanks for putting up with my attempts to understand!

I am aware of the muon phenomenon which certainly seems to provide evidence of time dilation. However, they are inanimate. We have no idea what they are 'perceiving'. Doesnt this argument imply that the ship-board observers in my thought experiment would be perceiving FTL travel ?
 
  • #53
pm3142 said:
Thanks for putting up with my attempts to understand!

I am aware of the muon phenomenon which certainly seems to provide evidence of time dilation. However, they are inanimate. We have no idea what they are 'perceiving'. Doesnt this argument imply that the ship-board observers in my thought experiment would be perceiving FTL travel ?

No. If you travel to a star that is 5 light years away from the Earth at a speed close to the speed of light, then you will arrive in less than 5 years by your clock. But, you will not observe a FTL speed at any stage. The key to this is that after you have accelerated to your relativistic speed, the distance to the star, as measured by you, has contracted. Your on board observation is that the star moves towards you at a sub light speed but from a much reduced initial distance.
 
  • #54
pm3142 said:
Thanks for putting up with my attempts to understand!

I am aware of the muon phenomenon which certainly seems to provide evidence of time dilation. However, they are inanimate. We have no idea what they are 'perceiving'. Doesnt this argument imply that the ship-board observers in my thought experiment would be perceiving FTL travel ?
No. In the most fundamental sense, if a radar signal was sent at the same time as a rocket passed earth, the light would arrive before the rocket, obviously ther is no FTL. Another observation is that in the rest frame of the rocket during travel, the Earth star distance is greatly reduced, so distance traveled in this frame divided by trip time measured in this frame is less than c.
 
  • #55
Interesting. So we believe the space contraction would appear very real to the voyager and distance would appear reduced, relative to the original (stationary - as viewed on earth) distance to the destination. So, acceleration to high velocity is perceived to actually warp space enough to bring distant objects physically closer?
 
  • #56
pm3142 said:
Interesting. So we believe the space contraction would appear very real to the voyager and distance would appear reduced, relative to the original (stationary - as viewed on earth) distance to the destination. So, acceleration to high velocity is perceived to actually warp space enough to bring distant objects physically closer?

No need to use words like "appear" and "perceived." The distance between Earth and distant star really is shorter in the spacefarer's frame than it is in the Earth frame. And the distance between atmosphere and ground really is shorter in the muon's frame.
 
  • Like
Likes Pencilvester and russ_watters
  • #57
pm3142 said:
Interesting. So we believe the space contraction would appear very real to the voyager and distance would appear reduced, relative to the original (stationary - as viewed on earth) distance to the destination. So, acceleration to high velocity is perceived to actually warp space enough to bring distant objects physically closer?

Nothing happens to space because one observer accelerates. Instead, the measurements of time and distance carried out by that observer are different from those of an observer who remains in the original frame.

As pointed out above there is no FTL travel in either frame.

That said, although relativity forbids FTL travel, it does provide the possibility of long-distance space travel in a short time for the space traveller.

In other words, you could travel far across space in your lifetime, while your journey would take hundreds, thousands or millions of years as observed from Earth.
 
  • #58
PAllen said:
Yes, this is shown by how many muons created in the upper atmosphere by cosmic rays reach the ground. Their half life is 2 microseconds. Almost none should reach the ground, yet most of them actually do. We, on the ground see them taking 10s of microseconds to reach the ground, but almost all arrive without decaying because for the muon much less than 2 microseconds elapsed.
Hi Allen,
The muon experiment looks like half a twins paradox experiment: we know which clock is traveling. It wouldn't be the case if the two twins would both be traveling, and if both could chose their own direction and speed: we could not know which one has traveled more than the other before having seen their respective clocks. If we could consider that the Earth could be traveling towards the muon at relativistic speed, I'm afraid that the constant result we get from the observation would be considered as paradoxical as if we could predict which one of my traveling twins would get younger.
 
  • #59
Raymond Potvin said:
Hi Allen,
The muon experiment looks like half a twins paradox experiment: we know which clock is traveling. It wouldn't be the case if the two twins would both be traveling, and if both could chose their own direction and speed: we could not know which one has traveled more than the other before having seen their respective clocks. If we could consider that the Earth could be traveling towards the muon at relativistic speed, I'm afraid that the constant result we get from the observation would be considered as paradoxical as if we could predict which one of my traveling twins would get younger.

The laws of physics are the same in all inertial reference frames, including those where the Earth is moving towards a muon at relativistic speed. No paradoxes arise from analysing the problem from this reference frame.
 
  • #60
Raymond Potvin said:
Hi Allen,
The muon experiment looks like half a twins paradox experiment: we know which clock is traveling. It wouldn't be the case if the two twins would both be traveling, and if both could chose their own direction and speed: we could not know which one has traveled more than the other before having seen their respective clocks. If we could consider that the Earth could be traveling towards the muon at relativistic speed, I'm afraid that the constant result we get from the observation would be considered as paradoxical as if we could predict which one of my traveling twins would get younger.
In the muon frame, ground reaches muon before it decays due to length contraction of the atmosphere - the ground travels only a short distance.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
802
  • · Replies 88 ·
3
Replies
88
Views
7K
  • · Replies 27 ·
Replies
27
Views
2K
  • · Replies 16 ·
Replies
16
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
1K
  • · Replies 16 ·
Replies
16
Views
2K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
2K
  • · Replies 58 ·
2
Replies
58
Views
5K
  • · Replies 54 ·
2
Replies
54
Views
4K
  • · Replies 18 ·
Replies
18
Views
2K